DISCUSSION THREAD ABOUT DENTAL IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT -

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I have nothing of value to add, just wanted to say I had no idea these conscious dentals were done with files! I learned something reading this thread, I had always assumed they used the same dental burrs used under anaesthetic, I think it would help massively if when discussing it, its made clear this is a totally different procedure to what is usually explained to people by their vets when they hear the word 'dental' l.

(Unless I've misread, which is entirely possible!) But this sort of miscommunication is the only justification I can see for wanting this kind of procedure banned.
Conscious dental burring is only performed on incisor teeth. Molar spikes are gently filed down using tiny files. This is the treatment that Bill got for his dodgy incisors and Ted got for his molar spur. Dental burrs are quite dangerous used around the rear of the mouth as there are lots of blood vessels and nerves 😊
 
I am surprised that TEAS are not getting more support from the guinea pig community. A number of other rescues have sent piggies to TEAS so that they can get dental treatment with Simon but seem reluctant to write a testimonial to support him continuing with his work. Surely these rescues would not have referred piggies to TEAS if they did not think that the conscious dentals were a good idea. They were happy enough to send these piggies to TEAS so now its payback time and they should be supporting TEAS and Simon.

I must admit this whole situation is making me incredibly angry. Whenever there is a post on the forum regarding a piggy with dental problems the first thing that we all do is tag in TEAS and recommend the C&R clinic. What will we do in the future if their work doesn't continue, will we be telling people that their only option is likely to be euthanasia. I have been saddened that there hasn't been more support on the forum for TEAS and Simon.
I would assume the issue is that although there are loads of members, a lot of these members are only here to ask a quick question, or get some advice on something and then that is it. That includes those with the recommendation to head to TEAS, they may have gone etc. but without spending quite a bit of time on the forum they would have no way of realizing this is happening.
I do not doubt more people would like to help, but unfortunately even members who are more active may not be particularly "interested" in the subject, most likely due to lack of understanding. A lot of people are not aware of the impact places like C&R have on guinea pigs, in all honesty I just recently learned what a conscious dental was, even though I have owned piggies for years and I am a training vet.

I am wondering if there is any way to reach out to TEAS/C&R clients, and make them aware of the situation you guys in. These are people who have been directly affected and I would imagine someone who cares enough to take their piggy into C&R/TEAS would be more than willing to send in a testimony of the work done.
Getting other notable rescues to share their standpoint on it, as I understand there are quite a few on here who are very aware of the situation. I am just wondering if maybe adding in a "professional" standpoint may make a difference at all.
My heart is broken that this is happening, my love for these animals is what got me into veterinary work, and the fact people so "well informed" on the subject will completely disregard the life changing work this does for GP's is really upsetting.

Is there any videos etc. on conscious dentals at all you could share, it would be interesting to learn more about how the operation actually works.
 
I feel helpless. What else can I do to help? I haven’t had a pig needing a conscious dental so can’t give a testimonial. I have used Cat and Rabbit for a tooth problem but a GA was used. I agree that vets need to get involved. They need more training in piggies in general.
When Pepper had his abscess my local vet, which is a recommended vet on here, wouldn’t even marsupialise it! Really? They are the main hospital for about 7 other branches. I was shocked.
 
I dont know what more we can do. Debbie is posting the TEAS residents stories on the TEAS fb page, I am liking and commenting on those posts to express my opinions and to try to increase traffic so the page is seen more often. Given the way fb likes to fill our feeds with random stuff, often in preference to posts from friends and pages we follow, there may be Teas followers who are unaware of recent posts and the ongoing situation.
 
@furryfriends (TEAS) when Cotswold had to have his incisors regularly burred i posted a thread entitled "Photos showing rate of growth in guinea pig teeth" in April 2014 i don't know how to create a link to it, I don't think you can on a phone but if someone else can link it to this thread it might help in terms of evidence. I think it would be completely unethical for a piggy to have to endure an anaesthetic for such a brief procedure when carried out by a competent piggy savvy vet.
It was back in the day when we had to post photos via photo bucket, so they now have that written across them, hope this isn't an issue.
 
Hoping to get something sent today/tomorrow. There was a forum member on here not too long back who couldn’t travel to see Simon for conscious dentals. Her pig went through a few dentals under GA but overall it was too detrimental to piggy’s health to go under anaesthesia so regularly and the pig was PTS. I wonder if this would also be a good testimonial? It would reinforce the idea that banning conscious dentals is a death sentence for dental pigs.
 
@furryfriends (TEAS) when Cotswold had to have his incisors regularly burred i posted a thread entitled "Photos showing rate of growth in guinea pig teeth" in April 2014 i don't know how to create a link to it, I don't think you can on a phone but if someone else can link it to this thread it might help in terms of evidence. I think it would be completely unethical for a piggy to have to endure an anaesthetic for such a brief procedure when carried out by a competent piggy savvy vet.
It was back in the day when we had to post photos via photo bucket, so they now have that written across them, hope this isn't an issue.

Photos Showing Rate Of Growth Of Guinea Pig Teeth
 
@furryfriends (TEAS) when Cotswold had to have his incisors regularly burred i posted a thread entitled "Photos showing rate of growth in guinea pig teeth" in April 2014 i don't know how to create a link to it, I don't think you can on a phone but if someone else can link it to this thread it might help in terms of evidence. I think it would be completely unethical for a piggy to have to endure an anaesthetic for such a brief procedure when carried out by a competent piggy savvy vet.
It was back in the day when we had to post photos via photo bucket, so they now have that written across them, hope this isn't an issue.
I had a pig who had the exact same issue a couple of years ago. He had to have top incisor burrs every 2 weeks, without those being conscious he would not have lived. These alleged experts are proposing that conscious dental work is barbaric, which is ridiculous. Their alternative is what is barbaric, they really don’t know anything!
 
I would encourage none of us to underestimate the influence of numbers and determination. Our views and experiences as conscientious owners are valid - and whether one is an advocate or an ally in relation to conscious dentals, both are valuable in what I perceive to be a political as much as a veterinary issue.
 
I've just read through the article attached in the first post on this thread. It only mentions declaring the use of conscious dental treatment on molars or "cheek teeth" as being unsafe. Can I clarify is all conscious dental treatment likely to be banned or just that on the back set up teeth. I'm learning a lot here but as I understand most dental work on the back teeth is already done under anesthetic.
 
I've just read through the article attached in the first post on this thread. It only mentions declaring the use of conscious dental treatment on molars or "cheek teeth" as being unsafe. Can I clarify is all conscious dental treatment likely to be banned or just that on the back set up teeth. I'm learning a lot here but as I understand most dental work on the back teeth is already done under anesthetic.
The option to have conscious incisor burrs is still been considered as far as I know
 
The position statement itself isnt really saying anything new, and the interpretation by individual vets will likely also be nuanced.
The move is really meant I believe to define rodent dental surgery as a surgical procedure, and by law surgical procedures require appropriate anaesthesia, sedation, and analgesia- and as such can only be performed by licensed vets.
To define dentals as non surgical would allow any fool to hack at their pet's teeth with toemail clippers- if it isnt surgery, they could- if it is surgery, by law it must be done be a vet, but must also then require appropriate anaesthesia.
The word anaesthesia can be very nuanced too- and does not necessarily mean the level of full and risky GA one may need for complex abdominal surgery for example.
But, the law governing surgical procedures on animals says that any procedure performed without appropriate anaesthesia is not showing due diligence and humanity- this is the law, an old law, but UK law. The regulatory bodies who make position statements did not make the law, this is an act of parliament, and an old one.
There is a lack of published veterinary literature on conscious dentals in guinea pigs- it is surprising that expert vets who specialise in this have not for some reason published case studies, and empirical data on clinical outcomes, in any veterinary journals, or shared their expertise with colleagues and veterinary regulators at conferences, these avenues are open to any vet or veterinary scientist, and this is where the BVZS and also the RCVS will be seeking information- from reliable, objective peer-reviewed journal articles published in veterinary journals, where case studies and data are shared with other vets and interested parties on all manner of veterinary matters.
This is clearly an emotive issue, but I would encourage everyone to look beyond the headlines as it were and understand how such decisions are made, the legal context in which such statements are made, where the evidence for such statements comes from- and how those vets who do advocate conscious dentals might help their viewpoint be incorporated if they shared their expertise by contributing their data, evidence, and case-studies through the established route of veterinary journal publications as most vets and veterinary researchers do.
That's my two-penneth anyway, as someone who lectures university students in bioveterinary science and legislation relating to veterinary matters, I won't say anything else, but the forum does usually emphasise the value of veterinary advice in line with RCVS guidelines and UK animal welfare laws...
If suddenly we don't, I'll get my coat!
 
The position statement itself isnt really saying anything new, and the interpretation by individual vets will likely also be nuanced.
The move is really meant I believe to define rodent dental surgery as a surgical procedure, and by law surgical procedures require appropriate anaesthesia, sedation, and analgesia- and as such can only be performed by licensed vets.
To define dentals as non surgical would allow any fool to hack at their pet's teeth with toemail clippers- if it isnt surgery, they could- if it is surgery, by law it must be done be a vet, but must also then require appropriate anaesthesia.
The word anaesthesia can be very nuanced too- and does not necessarily mean the level of full and risky GA one may need for complex abdominal surgery for example.
But, the law governing surgical procedures on animals says that any procedure performed without appropriate anaesthesia is not showing due diligence and humanity- this is the law, an old law, but UK law. The regulatory bodies who make position statements did not make the law, this is an act of parliament, and an old one.
There is a lack of published veterinary literature on conscious dentals in guinea pigs- it is surprising that expert vets who specialise in this have not for some reason published case studies, and empirical data on clinical outcomes, in any veterinary journals, or shared their expertise with colleagues and veterinary regulators at conferences, these avenues are open to any vet or veterinary scientist, and this is where the BVZS and also the RCVS will be seeking information- from reliable, objective peer-reviewed journal articles published in veterinary journals, where case studies and data are shared with other vets and interested parties on all manner of veterinary matters.
This is clearly an emotive issue, but I would encourage everyone to look beyond the headlines as it were and understand how such decisions are made, the legal context in which such statements are made, where the evidence for such statements comes from- and how those vets who do advocate conscious dentals might help their viewpoint be incorporated if they shared their expertise by contributing their data, evidence, and case-studies through the established route of veterinary journal publications as most vets and veterinary researchers do.
That's my two-penneth anyway, as someone who lectures university students in bioveterinary science and legislation relating to veterinary matters, I won't say anything else, but the forum does usually emphasise the value of veterinary advice in line with RCVS guidelines and UK animal welfare laws...
If suddenly we don't, I'll get my coat!
That is most informative and I very much support the viewpoint that dentals of any kind be carried out by qualified vets. Nobody wants individual owners ”having a go” it’s just a great shame that the marvellous work Simon and Kim Maddock do will be dashed and there will be nowhere else to go for owners with failed GA dentals or elderly/weak piggies who will not survive a GA.
I hope if this goes through mild sedatives may be allowed instead of full GA’s
 
Maybe not every busy vet has time to write papers for the BVZS but is caring for animals instead. I believe that Simon and Kim are doing fantastic work and have saved the lives of numerous guinea pigs. If there are people on the forum who think it is right that the piggies at TEAS should be euthanised because they no longer have access to this dental procedure then it's time for me to leave.

I might not be as clever as some forum members but I know what is right. That is definitely not having piggies PTS because some smart ar*e who has not even witnessed this procedure decides to ban it.
 
My worry is that with conscious dentals being made illegal is owners will be doing dentals on their piggies themselves. I have heard that rodent dental kits are available online. What sort of damage are well meaning owners going to do to their guinea pigs?
 
My worry is that with conscious dentals being made illegal is owners will be doing dentals on their piggies themselves. I have heard that rodent dental kits are available online. What sort of damage are well meaning owners going to do to their guinea pigs?
You are absolutely right of course, this decision will only affect veterinary professionals. So that of course means that anyone else can have a go at dentistry on guinea pigs.
 
Maybe not every busy vet has time to write papers for the BVZS but is caring for animals instead. I believe that Simon and Kim are doing fantastic work and have saved the lives of numerous guinea pigs. If there are people on the forum who think it is right that the piggies at TEAS should be euthanised because they no longer have access to this dental procedure then it's time for me to leave.

I might not be as clever as some forum members but I know what is right. That is definitely not having piggies PTS because some smart ar*e who has not even witnessed this procedure decides to ban it.
I don't think it's as simple as to ban or not to ban there should be some regulation around it, it should only be carried out by trained professionals and it should only be carried out with the right equipment. In the article it only mentions the back teeth which other members have stated is often done under anesthetic anyway as its a more complex procedure. I'm sure Simon and Kim and our friends at TEAs are aware of what's going on more than I am and if they truly feel their ability to carry out their good work is in jeopardy I will do what I can to support them but all this is just in consideration at the moment and there are no details that I've seen that show how this will actually affect pets, vets and owners (other than the worst case scenarios laid out above). I find it rather harsh to label scientists with very real concerns trying to find a solution that protects vulnerable animals as smart ar*es for doing their job. I'm sorry if this comes off as rude I have a lot of respect for TEAs and C&R and as I've said I'm sure they wouldn't be collecting evidence for no reason but I don't think an us vs them mentality is good for us, the scientific process, or in the long term our piggies.
 
You are absolutely right of course, this decision will only affect veterinary professionals. So that of course means that anyone else can have a go at dentistry on guinea pigs.
That is already the case and will not change. It's the start of a process that could make those kits illegal and videos online showing how to do it illegal. There always is and always will be owners that don't want to pay for vets. This will not affect them but hopefully one day something might.
 
I don't think it's as simple as to ban or not to ban there should be some regulation around it, it should only be carried out by trained professionals and it should only be carried out with the right equipment. In the article it only mentions the back teeth which other members have stated is often done under anesthetic anyway as its a more complex procedure. I'm sure Simon and Kim and our friends at TEAs are aware of what's going on more than I am and if they truly feel their ability to carry out their good work is in jeopardy I will do what I can to support them but all this is just in consideration at the moment and there are no details that I've seen that show how this will actually affect pets, vets and owners (other than the worst case scenarios laid out above). I find it rather harsh to label scientists with very real concerns trying to find a solution that protects vulnerable animals as smart ar*es for doing their job. I'm sorry if this comes off as rude I have a lot of respect for TEAs and C&R and as I've said I'm sure they wouldn't be collecting evidence for no reason but I don't think an us vs them mentality is good for us, the scientific process, or in the long term our piggies.
You obviously don't understand that the whole point is that Simon is doing the conscious dentals on the back teeth. Not burring them but a very quick procedure using a tiny file. Most of the piggies at TEAS need regular dentals like this and a GA this often would almost certainly result in harm or death. Shelly for example was so weak when she arrived at TEAS that a GA would not have been an option.

By the way you do 'come off' as being rather rude. Another reason that I find myself wanting to walk away from this forum.
 
You obviously don't understand that the whole point is that Simon is doing the conscious dentals on the back teeth. Not burring them but a very quick procedure using a tiny file. Most of the piggies at TEAS need regular dentals like this and a GA this often would almost certainly result in harm or death. Shelly for example was so weak when she arrived at TEAS that a GA would not have been an option.

By the way you do 'come off' as being rather rude. Another reason that I find myself wanting to walk away from this forum.
I already apologised if my previous post was a little blunt i just wanted to get my point across. I'm aware my opinion does not align with the majority here but I feel one of the great benefits of a forum like this is the sharing of a variety of opinions and open discussion without judgement. I can see this is a topic that is very close to your heart but that doesn't mean other points of view are not valid. Labeling my post as "another reason you find yourself wanting to walk away from this forum" is very hurtful and I hope that you don't truly feel that way.
 
I already apologised if my previous post was a little blunt i just wanted to get my point across. I'm aware my opinion does not align with the majority here but I feel one of the great benefits of a forum like this is the sharing of a variety of opinions and open discussion without judgement. I can see this is a topic that is very close to your heart but that doesn't mean other points of view are not valid. Labeling my post as "another reason you find yourself wanting to walk away from this forum" is very hurtful and I hope that you don't truly feel that way.
Sadly I do feel that way.
 
Emotions are running high, which is understandable. I am trying to maintain a professional stance, but this is really taking its toll on my mental and physical health now, made even harder by the constant messages and emails that I receive, from those desperate for the help of TEAS. I won't lie, I'm really struggling with all of this!
 
Debbie I am not surprised. You must be feeling so many emotions and most likely feel alone. You are not alone. Whatever happens there are people here and elsewhere who hold you in their hearts. I have been thinking this situation isn't just about the piggies but about the impact on the humans involved too. Try not to dwell on those you can't help right now. You are a hugely kind and caring person. Those piggies in your care are lucky to be with you and for now are safe. Stay safe. I feel (at least in part) your pain 💔💔💔
 
It saddens me that a number of forum members that normally advocate for TEAS and attend their fund raising events are conspicuous by their absence. ☹️ Not everyone likes confrontation but sometimes we have to speak up for what is right.
 
When I think of all the good work done at TEAS and the skills developed at C&R I do feel for the vets and piggies involved. I hope this whole debate leads to the issue being prioritised more in the vet training. Maybe even a specialist dental school where vets can get the qualifications they need and the experience to put them into practice - I mean, I don't expect my GP to fix my own teeth... and people teeth are much of a muchness because we're just one species. If vets have the freedom to weight up the pros and cons for the individual case that has got to be better than a blanket 'ban'.
 
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