DISCUSSION THREAD ABOUT DENTAL IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT -

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Just to clarify, what legal standing does the position statement from the BZVS have? Is it directly linked to the RCVS, or different?
 
Bill & Ted said:
Well can we ask sports billy then.

I think this is one of the most important issues that has certainly come up in my time here We pride ourselves as being “The Best” site for Guinea Pig Welfare and yet the “silence” from the Forum Staff Members have been totally deafening. I would have thought that the least they could have offered was to issued a statement of support for conscious dentals and it’s effectiveness to send to the BZVS
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Lee has a lot going on in his private life, he is no longer owner, so he will sort it next time he logs in. I may be the owner but I no longer have piggies, plus I am an operational on road traffic officer and spend a lot of time on duty. I have every confidence in Debbie raising awareness for this issue and is in a far better position to lobby the powers that be with the TEAS charity.
 
Bill & Ted said:
I really don’t know? Perhaps @PigglePuggle or @Bradshaw Piggies might know?
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It’s like a sector of the RCVS, works with them. So they do have a fair amount of power and influence, but ultimately it will have to be an agreement between both parties.
The BZVS have much influence over treatment and management of exotic animals in the veterinary sector.
It’s a bit like different sectors of government; but ultimately they all have to agree on one change/law/enforcement etc
 
Thanks for the replies about the BVZS. :)
Would it be possible to find out who they and the RWAF consulted from the guinea pig community in order to come to their conclusion?
When I look at the references in the document, they don't seem very recent or guinea pig/chinchilla specific...
 
Bradshaw Piggies said:
It’s like a sector of the RCVS, works with them. So they do have a fair amount of power and influence, but ultimately it will have to be an agreement between both parties.
The BZVS have much influence over treatment and management of exotic animals in the veterinary sector.
It’s a bit like different sectors of government; but ultimately they all have to agree on one change/law/enforcement etc
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Thank you that is most informative Nicola
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
Check out their website, they explain who they are!

BVZS British Veterinary Zoological Society Home page
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Ooh, interesting. When I look at the membership page it appears to be quite exclusive too. Join Renewal - British Veterinary Zoological Society
A look through their Facebook shows there was a Zoom webinar on the 1st of June for vets/nurses/students after the statement was published to discuss things going forward.
I really hope we can make a difference and they listen to the testimonials in order to make the best decision for poorly dental piggies.
 
ScrufflesRules said:
Ooh, interesting. When I look at the membership page it appears to be quite exclusive too. Join Renewal - British Veterinary Zoological Society
A look through their Facebook shows there was a Zoom webinar on the 1st of June for vets/nurses/students after the statement was published to discuss things going forward.
I really hope we can make a difference and they listen to the testimonials in order to make the best decision for poorly dental piggies.
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Simon joined the Zoom webinar and did get the opportunity to speak for around 5 mins. It wasn’t particularly well attended.
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
I feel so awful that I’m currently unable to provide what our charity was set up for! I’m having numerous calls from people asking me to help with dental piggies and I’m having to turn them away! 😢
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That is so awful, I mean if this were a government department at least we could set up a petition to get it debated to try and change the path this is heading. I only have one experience of the conscious dental and it wasn't really needed, it was all the signs of tooth problems but only the tiniest little spur starting so was decided it wasn't behind the weight loss. This is way back with one of my original 4 as well and I remember my vets being aware of Simon but not overly familiar with his work otherwise I would be pushing them to try and rally some support too. Will double check with them when we take the doggo in on Friday to see if they are familiar and supportive as I know they see lots of small animals
 
Lady Kelly said:
That is so awful, I mean if this were a government department at least we could set up a petition to get it debated to try and change the path this is heading. I only have one experience of the conscious dental and it wasn't really needed, it was all the signs of tooth problems but only the tiniest little spur starting so was decided it wasn't behind the weight loss. This is way back with one of my original 4 as well and I remember my vets being aware of Simon but not overly familiar with his work otherwise I would be pushing them to try and rally some support too. Will double check with them when we take the doggo in on Friday to see if they are familiar and supportive as I know they see lots of small animals
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Could this not still be relevant? It was used as an investigative procedure which otherwise would have needed anaesthesia and been a lot more damaging to the pigs overall health, especially as it would’ve been unnecessary? Maybe situations like this can still help our case since anaesthesia is a lot more risky with Guinea pigs than other species.
Just trying to think of all ways we could fight this!
 
I've no experience with this so I'm no help really but I just wanted to wish you the best of luck. These little lives are definitely worth fighting for. If there's any sort of petition we can sign I'd be happy to rally with you. I'm sure there's a lot of people in my position that have been lucky enough to never need this treatment but appreciate the work vets like cat and rabbit do.
 
Please keep the testimonials coming in! They seem adamant that the conscious dentals don’t work, as well as being a cause of poor welfare! Our piggies at TEAS are living their best life! We have a very strict ethos that what we do is ‘to extend good quality life, but never to prolong suffering’. I take this very seriously. I find it very offensive that they would think I’d compromise on welfare!
 
I have just sent you my testimonial, and I attach it here in case it is of interest to anyone - Louis-Pierre has been receiving conscious dentals for nearly three years, and I am in no doubt that he would most likely have had to have been euthanised before time had he not.

@furryfriends (TEAS), I would be happy to write and send you an ethical reflection on the position statement, if helpful?
 

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ExLibris81 said:
I have just sent you my testimonial, and I attach it here in case it is of interest to anyone - Louis-Pierre has been receiving conscious dentals for nearly three years, and I am in no doubt that he would most likely have had to have been euthanised before time had he not.

@furryfriends (TEAS), I would be happy to write and send you an ethical reflection on the position statement, if helpful?
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This is very much the same story as my Ted and no doubt many, many other guinea pigs. Once owners take their piggies to see Simon or Kim the problem is identified and managed and the Guinea pig can continue eating well for the rest of its life 😊
 
We’ve received many testimonials, but it would be good to get even more, so we can really highlight the strength of feeling about this life-changing and life-saving treatment! So many precious little lives have been saved or extended! It would be heartbreaking if this wasn’t allowed to continue! 😢
 
I'm glad to say that in all the years of having guinea pigs, I've been really lucky & never had experience of ongoing dental issues.

What I don't understand is, why is a conscious dental thought to be so bad in the view of the 'experts'?

I thought it was common knowledge throughout veterinary medicine that guinea pigs are sensitive to drugs (were they not widely used for vivisection purposes in the past for that precise reason?).

Guinea pigs are generally considered high risk patients with general anaesthetic, it's a fine line balancing the sedation during an operation, vulnerable guinea's such as the old, very young, ill, weak or disabled are going to find it harder to recover from GA, sadly many won't & a lot of the recovery rate depends on the aftercare that a guinea receives - including their ability to eat as soon as possible after a procedure, predominantly to 'kick start' the gut, reducing digestive disorders/stasis, etc.

If a conscious dental is performed, removing the risks associated with GA for minor dental adjustments by a competent veterinary surgeon then surely this is preferable all round?

I agree with more intrusive procedures using GA to carry them out safely & pain free.

There's also a cost factor associated with GA & a lot of people would have to consider whether they could afford to have there guinea pig treated if GA was the only option for dentals, this would bring either prolonged suffering or an early euthanasia of an otherwise beloved pet.

It seems to be that the 'experts' are wishing to back unnecessary GA to the detriment of the guineas and their owners?

I'm not sure I would want to go to the dentist if I also had to endure GA for check ups, fillings, xrays, hygienist work & other procedures that are also completely unnecessary to be used on these occasions.
Why should it be any different for guinea pigs, surely the ethics of GA in dentistry are similar in the animal kingdom to the human race?

@furryfriends (TEAS) If there are any points I've raised in my post that can be used to help the lives of these poor defenseless guineas & the use of GA please use it.
 
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GPTV said:
I'm glad to say that in all the years of having guinea pigs, I've been really lucky & never had experience of ongoing dental issues.

What I don't understand is, why is a conscious dental thought to be so bad in the view of the 'experts'?

I thought it was common knowledge throughout veterinary medicine that guinea pigs are sensitive to drugs (were they not widely used for vivisection purposes in the past for that precise reason?).

Guinea pigs are generally considered high risk patients with general anaesthetic, it's a fine line balancing the sedation during an operation, vulnerable guinea's such as the old, very young, ill, weak or disabled are going to find it harder to recover from GA, sadly many won't & a lot of the recovery rate depends on the aftercare that a guinea receives - including their ability to eat as soon as possible after a procedure, predominantly to 'kick start' the gut, reducing digestive disorders/stasis, etc.

If a conscious dental is performed, removing the risks associated with GA for minor dental adjustments by a competent veterinary surgeon then surely this is preferable all round?

I agree with more intrusive procedures using GA to carry them out safely & pain free.

There's also a cost factor associated with GA & a lot of people would have to consider whether they could afford to have there guinea pig treated if GA was the only option for dentals, this would bring either prolonged suffering or an early euthanasia of an otherwise beloved pet.

It seems to be that the 'experts' are wishing to back unnecessary GA to the detriment of the guineas and their owners?

I'm not sure I would want to go to the dentist if I also had to endure GA for check ups, fillings, xrays, hygienist work & other procedures that are also completely unnecessary to be used on these occasions.
Why should it be any different for guinea pigs, surely the ethics of GA in dentistry are similar in the animal kingdom to the human race?

@furryfriends (TEAS) If there are any points I've raised in my post that can be used to help the lives of these poor defenseless guineas & the use of GA please use it.
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Well said, I couldn’t agree with you more. These Experts seem to think conscious dentals involve burring of the molars, this is nonsense. Tiny files are used to reduce any dental spurs. It‘s done very gently and does not harm the Guinea pig in anyway. After the horrendous GA dentals I’ve experienced because the vets go mad and too deep with a burring tool simply because they can, the pet in question is knocked out and they cannot tell where the teeth align. It’s like use a sledgehammer to crack a nut! Anot to mention the after effects 🙄
 
GPTV said:
I'm glad to say that in all the years of having guinea pigs, I've been really lucky & never had experience of ongoing dental issues.

What I don't understand is, why is a conscious dental thought to be so bad in the view of the 'experts'?

I thought it was common knowledge throughout veterinary medicine that guinea pigs are sensitive to drugs (were they not widely used for vivisection purposes in the past for that precise reason?).

Guinea pigs are generally considered high risk patients with general anaesthetic, it's a fine line balancing the sedation during an operation, vulnerable guinea's such as the old, very young, ill, weak or disabled are going to find it harder to recover from GA, sadly many won't & a lot of the recovery rate depends on the aftercare that a guinea receives - including their ability to eat as soon as possible after a procedure, predominantly to 'kick start' the gut, reducing digestive disorders/stasis, etc.

If a conscious dental is performed, removing the risks associated with GA for minor dental adjustments by a competent veterinary surgeon then surely this is preferable all round?

I agree with more intrusive procedures using GA to carry them out safely & pain free.

There's also a cost factor associated with GA & a lot of people would have to consider whether they could afford to have there guinea pig treated if GA was the only option for dentals, this would bring either prolonged suffering or an early euthanasia of an otherwise beloved pet.

It seems to be that the 'experts' are wishing to back unnecessary GA to the detriment of the guineas and their owners?

I'm not sure I would want to go to the dentist if I also had to endure GA for check ups, fillings, xrays, hygienist work & other procedures that are also completely unnecessary to be used on these occasions.
Why should it be any different for guinea pigs, surely the ethics of GA in dentistry are similar in the animal kingdom to the human race?

@furryfriends (TEAS) If there are any points I've raised in my post that can be used to help the lives of these poor defenseless guineas & the use of GA please use it.
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As someone who's lucky enough to have never needed this. It seems a lot like a more extreme version of nail clipping. Pigs don't like having it done but it must feel like instant relief afterwards and the more it's done the more they get used to it. A few treats later all is forgiven and life carries on until its needed again. Are we to ban nail trims without anastasia too. I know it's not exactly the same but some parts of care are uncomfortable or unpleasant for the animal but putting them through GA seems very extreme. What about elderly boars that need a little boar clean every now and then it's not comfortable most pigs will squeal and wriggle but sometimes it has to be done and it's not worth the life and death consequences of anaesthetic
 
Sweet Potato said:
As someone who's lucky enough to have never needed this. It seems a lot like a more extreme version of nail clipping. Pigs don't like having it done but it must feel like instant relief afterwards and the more it's done the more they get used to it. A few treats later all is forgiven and life carries on until its needed again. Are we to ban nail trims without anastasia too. I know it's not exactly the same but some parts of care are uncomfortable or unpleasant for the animal but putting them through GA seems very extreme. What about elderly boars that need a little boar clean every now and then it's not comfortable most pigs will squeal and wriggle but sometimes it has to be done and it's not worth the life and death consequences of anaesthetic
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A conscious dental is done and over in 5 minutes with no nasty after effects, not 3 or 4 days to recover from the anaesthetics. If this comes into effect than it’s a sad day and a backward step for guinea pigs who are poorly represented when it comes to vet training anyway
 
I am surprised that TEAS are not getting more support from the guinea pig community. A number of other rescues have sent piggies to TEAS so that they can get dental treatment with Simon but seem reluctant to write a testimonial to support him continuing with his work. Surely these rescues would not have referred piggies to TEAS if they did not think that the conscious dentals were a good idea. They were happy enough to send these piggies to TEAS so now its payback time and they should be supporting TEAS and Simon.

I must admit this whole situation is making me incredibly angry. Whenever there is a post on the forum regarding a piggy with dental problems the first thing that we all do is tag in TEAS and recommend the C&R clinic. What will we do in the future if their work doesn't continue, will we be telling people that their only option is likely to be euthanasia. I have been saddened that there hasn't been more support on the forum for TEAS and Simon.
 
I have nothing of value to add, just wanted to say I had no idea these conscious dentals were done with files! I learned something reading this thread, I had always assumed they used the same dental burrs used under anaesthetic, I think it would help massively if when discussing it, its made clear this is a totally different procedure to what is usually explained to people by their vets when they hear the word 'dental' l.

(Unless I've misread, which is entirely possible!) But this sort of miscommunication is the only justification I can see for wanting this kind of procedure banned.
 
At a guess, the forum is limited for the same reasons as we're limited in the health section - we're not vets, and there's no medical advice we can give without a vet's say-so in the first place. It's other vets the support needs to come from, because this affects their decisions and treatment options too. Because then what else gets branded as dangerous and ineffective treatment on down the line?

I wish I could do more, I don't doubt we all do. But the push should be coming from the veterinary world, we're limited to what we can do otherwise.
 
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