Possible jawline abscess

[Free Ranger]

Hi yes you’re right. It’s cat strength and the syringe says 1-10, but it’s actually 0.1-1.

Oh that's fine. I had to just double check because my vet said at one point that one sign of kidney failure can be excessive drinking but I thought it would just be the Pro-C tempting her. My boy went through a sudden phase of guzzling from a syringe - but when I offered the same to my girls they just looked at me like, "What..." It's great that she's having a good go at her mush and although a 10g loss should be noted it could be that she'd just peed as 10g isn't so much. She may well be maintaining weight But a knowledgable vet will set your mind at rest.

When Ivy had her incisors burred too short she needed painkiller because the lip was caught. But when Zara had her bad incisor burred she came home and started eating grass straight away. Biscuit might be nervous but not as nervous as going back to the other vet! Keeping everything crossed

Hope everyone gets well soon x

 

[Little Ones]

I'm so sorry you've got all this stress - and poor Biscuit
There was a forum piggy called Little who had no bottom incisors at all and had to re-learn how to get food into his mouth but he did it - they can do it and even in such extreme circumstances can relearn how to eat independently. Sometimes you have to offer little slices of veg or slivers of leaf at first to encourage them to build a bit of confidence..? All they know is that they could eat, but they can't now - they don't necessarily know that they will be able to eat again and hopefully quite soon. Syringing will help her not feel hungry while she sorts herself out. If there has been physical damage to the teeth get back in touch with the vet and let them know - even if you choose to go to a different vet in the future. They will want to know.

My rainbow girl Ivy had her incisors burred once - but rather too short - and she had to figure out how to get food in and keep it in. Saying that, Ivy actually found the chewing part easier as her overgrown incisors had been in the way. Her chewing speed improved no end. The vet that spotted the incisors said she couldn't close her mouth properly. The senior vet who actually did her teeth was experienced with the burr tool but hadn't realised she had caught the lip - neither did I until the next day when Ivy clearly had a fat bottom lip and was extremely irritated with me! I phoned in to let them know and got advice on pain relief and what to watch out for regarding complications. Luckily there weren't any and it took about a week for the bottom teeth to meet the top ones again.

It's not been a great experience for either of you (or the vet by the sounds of it) and I really hope this doesn't set Biscuit back too much. If you have anything wooden like a bendy bridge, or a thick brown cardboard box, she might feel like she wants to bite at something to re-shape those front teeth. It's perhaps why she went for that plant pot.

PS: On a previous occasion I did tempt Ivy to eat with dry Fruit and Fibre flakes which were obvs not part of her regular diet but perked her up a bit when she was down. I don't know why she liked them - the others were never bothered! I think she quite liked the crunching.

Ah, my Little. I don’t get on the forum much these days because of how busy I am, it’s nice to come across him being mentioned. I miss him so much!

 

[Little Ones]

Good luck for the appointment, I hope you get to the bottom of what’s going on. I’ve had dental piggies, but also my Little had two jaw abscesses which developed within about two months of each other I believe. The first jaw abscess was missed by the first vet we saw who just filed his teeth as the abscess presented as one longer bottom incisor. We then found out it was an abscess, after which it was pretty easy to feel out once we knew the area to feel and so we were able to identify the second one quickly. Each abscess removal meant his incisor never grew back so he was left with no bottom incisors and top incisors which needed to be filed every other week. He was perfectly fine though with just his top teeth!
From the videos you posted, the pawing strikes me as odd. I didn’t have that with Little. However the subdued behaviour and total lack of appetite is very reminiscent of Little with his jaw abscess. If the pawing is new post dental, I’d be concerned about damage done potentially from clippers.
Even though you’re booked in for a dental tomorrow, make sure you mention the jaw lump you felt, really stress how subdued piggy is now, and id also mention that the teeth could’ve been cut with clippers rather than filed but you aren’t sure. And don’t worry, they won’t burr the teeth with you in the same room!
I wish you so much luck!

 

[Free Ranger]

Little was such a beautiful boy x
By putting his experiences on here you and he are still helping other piggies and owners understand their options.
His legacy lives on - and I think his gentle nature would like that...

 

[Wheekallweek]

Best of luck for tomorrow, I hope they can get Biscuit sorted on the day x

 

[Surfergirl]

Oh that's fine. I had to just double check because my vet said at one point that one sign of kidney failure can be excessive drinking but I thought it would just be the Pro-C tempting her. My boy went through a sudden phase of guzzling from a syringe - but when I offered the same to my girls they just looked at me like, "What..." It's great that she's having a good go at her mush and although a 10g loss should be noted it could be that she'd just peed as 10g isn't so much. She may well be maintaining weight But a knowledgable vet will set your mind at rest.

When Ivy had her incisors burred too short she needed painkiller because the lip was caught. But when Zara had her bad incisor burred she came home and started eating grass straight away. Biscuit might be nervous but not as nervous as going back to the other vet! Keeping everything crossed

Hope everyone gets well soon x

Thank you. Really appreciate your support. Been awake since 3am, roll on the vets appointment! X

 

[Surfergirl]

Best of luck for tomorrow, I hope they can get Biscuit sorted on the day x

Thank you x

 

[Surfergirl]

Good luck for the appointment, I hope you get to the bottom of what’s going on. I’ve had dental piggies, but also my Little had two jaw abscesses which developed within about two months of each other I believe. The first jaw abscess was missed by the first vet we saw who just filed his teeth as the abscess presented as one longer bottom incisor. We then found out it was an abscess, after which it was pretty easy to feel out once we knew the area to feel and so we were able to identify the second one quickly. Each abscess removal meant his incisor never grew back so he was left with no bottom incisors and top incisors which needed to be filed every other week. He was perfectly fine though with just his top teeth!
From the videos you posted, the pawing strikes me as odd. I didn’t have that with Little. However the subdued behaviour and total lack of appetite is very reminiscent of Little with his jaw abscess. If the pawing is new post dental, I’d be concerned about damage done potentially from clippers.
Even though you’re booked in for a dental tomorrow, make sure you mention the jaw lump you felt, really stress how subdued piggy is now, and id also mention that the teeth could’ve been cut with clippers rather than filed but you aren’t sure. And don’t worry, they won’t burr the teeth with you in the same room!
I wish you so much luck!

Thank you, I really appreciate that.
She is still doing the jaw movement, I can only describe it as raising and curling up her top lip like you might imagine a camel or llama might do!
She’s very slow at eating and refusing anything hard. The most solid food she’ll eat is oats, which I’ve given her when she’s refused her mush for some energy. Even then it’s my gluten free ones which are tiny.

I can’t feel that tiny lump I thought I initially found but will mention it.

With the abscess removal, was it done under anaesthetic? I believe she’s too old and weak for that so am worried she might have to be pts if it is more than a file.

She won’t eat grass or hay which is what worries me. Did yours eat that with missing incisors?

At the minute I feel like she’s just surviving but hasn’t got any real quality of life. She used to love being on the lawn, but now just sits there as she can’t eat grass. You can see she wants to but can’t. All very sad. Have been awake since 3am waiting for the appointment x

 

[Surfergirl]

Oh that's fine. I had to just double check because my vet said at one point that one sign of kidney failure can be excessive drinking but I thought it would just be the Pro-C tempting her. My boy went through a sudden phase of guzzling from a syringe - but when I offered the same to my girls they just looked at me like, "What..." It's great that she's having a good go at her mush and although a 10g loss should be noted it could be that she'd just peed as 10g isn't so much. She may well be maintaining weight But a knowledgable vet will set your mind at rest.

When Ivy had her incisors burred too short she needed painkiller because the lip was caught. But when Zara had her bad incisor burred she came home and started eating grass straight away. Biscuit might be nervous but not as nervous as going back to the other vet! Keeping everything crossed

Hope everyone gets well soon x

Ps she wasn’t very interested in the water in the syringe today! It seems like this daily and even changes from morning to afternoon as to what she’ll eat/drink and how! She’s certainly keeping me on my toes.
On a human note…Got antibiotics for my little boys tooth abscess, at least that’s one down, the dentist can’t fit me in until January!

 

[Little Ones]

Thank you, I really appreciate that.
She is still doing the jaw movement, I can only describe it as raising and curling up her top lip like you might imagine a camel or llama might do!
She’s very slow at eating and refusing anything hard. The most solid food she’ll eat is oats, which I’ve given her when she’s refused her mush for some energy. Even then it’s my gluten free ones which are tiny.

I can’t feel that tiny lump I thought I initially found but will mention it.

With the abscess removal, was it done under anaesthetic? I believe she’s too old and weak for that so am worried she might have to be pts if it is more than a file.

She won’t eat grass or hay which is what worries me. Did yours eat that with missing incisors?

At the minute I feel like she’s just surviving but hasn’t got any real quality of life. She used to love being on the lawn, but now just sits there as she can’t eat grass. You can see she wants to but can’t. All very sad. Have been awake since 3am waiting for the appointment x

Yeah the strange movement is really odd. Porridge oats are good, definitely give them. If you can get the larger oats, that would be better. I’ve always given my oldies or unwell piggies porridge oats as they’re very good at keeping weight up which is very important for those types of pigs.
It was done under anaesthetic and she’s not too old at all. Little was 6 when he had both of his done. 5 is old but not too old, I think its still a good age for surgery depending on how skilled your veterinary team is. But also when it’s life or death anyway, a surgery is a no brainier.
Little could still eat everything with his missing incisors. The only difference between him and a normal piggy in terms of food was that we had to cut his vegetables into thin slices and feed them to him as he couldn’t pick them up. By doing this, he had no issues at all. But he could eat everything - oats, pellets, grass, hay, all of it. I think the reason she’s not eating is entirely down to pain, and a potential inability to due to whatever is going on. I think the pain is just a really big factor. We had trouble getting Little to eat anything when he had his jaw abscesses. When his second one developed, the reason we became concerned was because all of a sudden he had no appetite and wasn’t leaving his hidey much at all. We then took him to the vet who dealt with the first abscess and he couldn’t locate the problem, then about a week or two later the abscess made its appearance and we were able to feel it via touch. They must be excruciatingly painful, so if it’s that I can understand why she has no appetite. The most important thing is getting any food into her at all, you could even try vegetables cut up into tiny, tiny pieces so you can just essentially slot them into her mouth. This means she doesn’t have to use her incisors, but rather it’s just the back teeth doing the work. Definitely keep up with the syringe feeding, if you’re still awake and can’t sleep then just do it little and often, even if it means she only has 3ml of food an hour, it’s still enough for the guts to keep going. And don’t forget to syringe her water too if you aren’t already, I imagine she’s pretty dehydrated. I know how you’re feeling right now, waiting for the appointment, so scared you can’t even sleep, can’t even think about anything else, just so consumed by worry, desperate to keep them alive. I’ve gone through it many times with many pigs, it’s so exhausting, both physically and emotionally. Just know we’re here with you

 

[Surfergirl]

Yeah the strange movement is really odd. Porridge oats are good, definitely give them. If you can get the larger oats, that would be better. I’ve always given my oldies or unwell piggies porridge oats as they’re very good at keeping weight up which is very important for those types of pigs.
It was done under anaesthetic and she’s not too old at all. Little was 6 when he had both of his done. 5 is old but not too old, I think its still a good age for surgery depending on how skilled your veterinary team is. But also when it’s life or death anyway, a surgery is a no brainier.
Little could still eat everything with his missing incisors. The only difference between him and a normal piggy in terms of food was that we had to cut his vegetables into thin slices and feed them to him as he couldn’t pick them up. By doing this, he had no issues at all. But he could eat everything - oats, pellets, grass, hay, all of it. I think the reason she’s not eating is entirely down to pain, and a potential inability to due to whatever is going on. I think the pain is just a really big factor. We had trouble getting Little to eat anything when he had his jaw abscesses. When his second one developed, the reason we became concerned was because all of a sudden he had no appetite and wasn’t leaving his hidey much at all. We then took him to the vet who dealt with the first abscess and he couldn’t locate the problem, then about a week or two later the abscess made its appearance and we were able to feel it via touch. They must be excruciatingly painful, so if it’s that I can understand why she has no appetite. The most important thing is getting any food into her at all, you could even try vegetables cut up into tiny, tiny pieces so you can just essentially slot them into her mouth. This means she doesn’t have to use her incisors, but rather it’s just the back teeth doing the work. Definitely keep up with the syringe feeding, if you’re still awake and can’t sleep then just do it little and often, even if it means she only has 3ml of food an hour, it’s still enough for the guts to keep going. And don’t forget to syringe her water too if you aren’t already, I imagine she’s pretty dehydrated. I know how you’re feeling right now, waiting for the appointment, so scared you can’t even sleep, can’t even think about anything else, just so consumed by worry, desperate to keep them alive. I’ve gone through it many times with many pigs, it’s so exhausting, both physically and emotionally. Just know we’re here with you

Bless you, thank you, that’s kind.
She does want to eat on my knee, but isn’t very interested on her own.
I have cut up lots of different veg into tiny pieces. She was managing the inner part of a cucumber for hydration but now won’t eat that. I had to cook some sweet potato against guidelines, but there’s no way she could eat it raw and I know it’s got more calories.
Why are bigger jars better? I tried her with jumbo porridge oats but she couldn’t manage them as they require more chewing.
She was eating tiny bits of coriander, but yesterday was spinach in minute pieces.
I find the syringe feeding painful as apart from one day, she hates it and I have to force feed her.
I think she lost so much weight from gut stasis a couple of months back and never really filled out, plus has three large masses, two vets said she’s too weak and old to anaesthetise.
I’m just hoping Jess the dental vet can do an easy fix today. My poor baby has struggled for too long and didn’t deserve a vet of all people doing this to her.

 

[Little Ones]

Bless you, thank you, that’s kind.
She does want to eat on my knee, but isn’t very interested on her own.
I have cut up lots of different veg into tiny pieces. She was managing the inner part of a cucumber for hydration but now won’t eat that. I had to cook some sweet potato against guidelines, but there’s no way she could eat it raw and I know it’s got more calories.
Why are bigger jars better? I tried her with jumbo porridge oats but she couldn’t manage them as they require more chewing.
She was eating tiny bits of coriander, but yesterday was spinach in minute pieces.
I find the syringe feeding painful as apart from one day, she hates it and I have to force feed her.
I think she lost so much weight from gut stasis a couple of months back and never really filled out, plus has three large masses, two vets said she’s too weak and old to anaesthetise.
I’m just hoping Jess the dental vet can do an easy fix today. My poor baby has struggled for too long and didn’t deserve a vet of all people doing this to her.

The jumbo oats are a lot easier to pick up for piggies with incisor problems, if she’s getting on better with the smaller ones then just do what she finds easiest, whatever gets her to eat more.
Oh bless her, sounds like she’s been through the wars hopefully Jess can figure out what’s going on and if surgery is needed and give her professional opinion on the matter. Hoping for good news for you x

 

[PerfectPiggyPaws]

Hi, how did it go with Jess? I was so pleased to see you there, I'd have invited you back to mine for a coffee but I knew you needed to get home to your little ones. Hope they are doing okay so you don't have everyone to worry about.
You are a super PiggyMama and Biscuit is so fortunate you have you on her side, travelling all that way to see Jess shows how much you adore her.
I really hope you have some peace of mind now and I wish you the very best xx

 

[Bill & Ted]

Does Jess take them away to file their teeth? I do hate watching them being treated especially as I know she’ll struggle and probably be in pain after the last vets hash up.

yes she takes them into the back. Jess did ask to see Ted’s molar spur (she was treating Bill’s incisors) just out of interest and it was the first time I had actually seen inside a guinea pigs mouth, quite amazing and she pointed out the spur

 

[Bill & Ted]

Hope it’s gone well and you have found out what’s happening in that little mouth x

 

[Surfergirl]

Hi, how did it go with Jess? I was so pleased to see you there, I'd have invited you back to mine for a coffee but I knew you needed to get home to your little ones. Hope they are doing okay so you don't have everyone to worry about.
You are a super PiggyMama and Biscuit is so fortunate you have you on her side, travelling all that way to see Jess shows how much you adore her.
I really hope you have some peace of mind now and I wish you the very best xx

Thank you, it was lovely to meet you and sorry I broke down. I’ve been up since 3am with my mind racing imagining the worst. I would’ve loved a coffee thank you, shame I had to race back.
Briefly as I’ve just walked in from hospital and now got to help at a charity firework event.
Jess was lovely but couldn’t see anything in her mouth. She thought the top incisors were too short and thought the top and bottom were too rough so filed them slightly.
After a very thorough look, she did feel a small lump in her cheek. It could’ve been the one I felt on Sunday but haven’t felt since. She said an X-ray May show more but is pointless if she’s not well enough for an op. So she agreed on the antibiotics beginning with Z! Will check the name later which won’t do any harm. I had to drive to Paington for them before racing back to Looe to collect the children. 5 hour round trip! They gave me the wrong ones at Paington so I queried it with the vet there who had misheard! Thank god I was on the ball enough to check. It has been a draining long day, but she’s still alive. She isn’t eating very well and I’ve had half an hour with her on my knee so she’ll eat but otherwise she hasn’t touched the huge variety of offerings. She’s eating her poo which is good!
Will write again tomorrow when I have some time. Thank you very much to you and everyone on here who has offered their support xx

 

[Surfergirl]

Thank you, it was lovely to meet you and sorry I broke down. I’ve been up since 3am with my mind racing imagining the worst. I would’ve loved a coffee thank you, shame I had to race back.
Briefly as I’ve just walked in from hospital and now got to help at a charity firework event.
Jess was lovely but couldn’t see anything in her mouth. She thought the top incisors were too short and thought the top and bottom were too rough so filed them slightly.
After a very thorough look, she did feel a small lump in her cheek. It could’ve been the one I felt on Sunday but haven’t felt since. She said an X-ray May show more but is pointless if she’s not well enough for an op. So she agreed on the antibiotics beginning with Z! Will check the name later which won’t do any harm. I had to drive to Paington for them before racing back to Looe to collect the children. 5 hour round trip! They gave me the wrong ones at Paington so I queried it with the vet there who had misheard! Thank god I was on the ball enough to check. It has been a draining long day, but she’s still alive. She isn’t eating very well and I’ve had half an hour with her on my knee so she’ll eat but otherwise she hasn’t touched the huge variety of offerings. She’s eating her poo which is good!
Will write again tomorrow when I have some time. Thank you very much to you and everyone on here who has offered their support xx

Really hoping she’s just stressed from today and maybe a little tender from all the examinations. She’s worse than before as not eating at all on her own and holding her head low looking fed up. Ate a little on my knee not enthusiastic and refused any mush. So just a few finely chopped leaves. Breaking my heart but she’s going downhill again. I know I’ve done everything I can, just haven’t got another hour tonight to sit with her on my knee. I just hope she perks up soon x

 

[PerfectPiggyPaws]

Thank you so much for the update. I'm sorry it wasn't better news but Jess is very thorough and wouldn't put an animal through a procedure for the sake of it so I'm not surprised she didn't recommend an x-ray.
Well done for spotting the meds mistakes.
All you can do is keep offering her a variety of foods, you certainly can't be faulted for everything you've tried and I know it's frustrating not knowing what to try next. Hopefully Biscuit will feel better and eat more after she has settled from all the traveling and being examined.
I wish I could suggest something more to help.
Look after yourself xx

 

[Bill & Ted]

Oh it’s been a long day for you both. I hope the AB’s kick in is it Zithromax? That’s used for abscesses I believe with good results. Hope little Biscuit is feeling better tomorrow

 

[Wheekallweek]

My bunny is currently on Zithromax for an infection around a couple of her teeth and in her jaw bone she tolerates it well, it smells very sweet!
Sorry it wasn't jsut a quick fix but you're doing such a good job for Biscuit! Keep going

 

[Free Ranger]

You've done everything you possibly can for Biscuit. You've done her proud. I just hope the weekend brings some respite for you all

 

[Surfergirl]

Hope it’s gone well and you have found out what’s happening in that little mouth x

Thank you for your support, I really appreciate it. Hopefully you can see the update below. It’s been hell of a day!
I got back this evening and she was very unresponsive and not wanting to eat. I’ve persevered and stayed up late for me although I’m shattered. She has gone from looking very weak to eating a reasonable amount considering and has perked up no end. I presume the weekend will go either way. Keeping everything crossed. Thank you for the Jess recommendation. I can’t remember if you were part of my question as to whether there are any boarders in Cornwall? I’ve got a weekend away coming up and wanted to find somewhere suitable but seems there’s nothing down here!

 

[Surfergirl]

Thank you for your support, I really appreciate it. Hopefully you can see the update below. It’s been hell of a day!
I got back this evening and she was very unresponsive and not wanting to eat. I’ve persevered and stayed up late for me although I’m shattered. She has gone from looking very weak to eating a reasonable amount considering and has perked up no end. I presume the weekend will go either way. Keeping everything crossed. Thank you for the Jess recommendation. I can’t remember if you were part of my question as to whether there are any boarders in Cornwall? I’ve got a weekend away coming up and wanted to find somewhere suitable but seems there’s nothing down here!

It’s
[HEADING=2]Azithromycin she’s been prescribed. I hope it’s not that ruining her appetite? [/HEADING]

 

[Piggies&buns]

It’s
[HEADING=2]Azithromycin she’s been prescribed. I hope it’s not that ruining her appetite? [/HEADING]

azithromycin/zithromax (same product), is the best for abscesses.
the thing with antibiotics is that you can’t predict how a piggy will be affected - an antibiotic which affects one piggy won’t affect another and vice versa. All you can do is see how things go and use a probiotic if needed.
i hope she recovers well

 

[Surfergirl]

azithromycin/zithromax (same product), is the best for abscesses.
the thing with antibiotics is that you can’t predict how a piggy will be affected - an antibiotic which affects one piggy won’t affect another and vice versa. All you can do is see how things go and use a probiotic if needed.
i hope she recovers well

Yes thank you. I told Jess the name of the antibiotic as I’d seen it recommended on here. She googled it and agreed. We don’t even know if the small lump in her cheek is an abscess, but seeing as Baytril doesn’t touch pus, this seems like a good thing to try.
I think she’s going downhill after yesterday, she had a long car journey and a long appointment at the vets. I’m hoping she picks up today.
Thank you for your support, much appreciated.

 

[Surfergirl]

Just a little update on Biscuit. Having looked like she was fading away last night, I came downstairs this morning to a loud shrill for her breakfast! She has been gobbling up her finely chopped veggies. I’ve had to lightly cook them as she wasn’t eating them raw, I assume she couldn’t chew them. She could only eat soft things like peas. I’m hoping now Jess has smoothed the rough edges on her incisors, she will slowly be able to eat again normally. That’s my hope!

I just wondered how long she can manage without grass and hay? I’ve tried finely chopping it, but she isn’t touching it still.

Many thanks

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Just a little update on Biscuit. Having looked like she was fading away last night, I came downstairs this morning to a loud shrill for her breakfast! She has been gobbling up her finely chopped veggies. I’ve had to lightly cook them as she wasn’t eating them raw, I assume she couldn’t chew them. She could only eat soft things like peas. I’m hoping now Jess has smoothed the rough edges on her incisors, she will slowly be able to eat again normally. That’s my hope!

I just wondered how long she can manage without grass and hay? I’ve tried finely chopping it, but she isn’t touching it still.

Many thanks

I had a piggy, here at TEAS, who lived for well over a year without eating hay. If there is any infection, Zithromax should make a difference. Please don’t get worried about it affecting appetite. I must’ve had over 100 piggies on it, over the years and I’ve only had it affect appetite in one piggy.

 

[weepweeps]

I’m pleased Biscuit seems a bit happier this morning. Are you still weighing daily and syringe feeding? When my Pepper was on Zithromax it completely knocked his appetite. He hardly ate anything other than syringe food for about 5 weeks. Good luck. You are doing all you can for Biscuit. Keep going. Sometimes you think they will never eat by themselves again and then suddenly they do.

 

[Surfergirl]

I had a piggy, here at TEAS, who lived for well over a year without eating hay. If there is any infection, Zithromax should make a difference. Please don’t get worried about it affecting appetite. I must’ve had over 100 piggies on it, over the years and I’ve only had it affect appetite in one piggy.

Ahh thank you, that’s great to know.

 

[Surfergirl]

I’m pleased Biscuit seems a bit happier this morning. Are you still weighing daily and syringe feeding? When my Pepper was on Zithromax it completely knocked his appetite. He hardly ate anything other than syringe food for about 5 weeks. Good luck. You are doing all you can for Biscuit. Keep going. Sometimes you think they will never eat by themselves again and then suddenly they do.

Thank you. Yes I’m weighing daily and syringing a bit although nothing like 60ml a day. She lost 10g and I didn’t weigh her yesterday as was out all day with the vets, Hospital etc. She absolutely hates syringe feeding and gets stressed, but she’ll usually eat on my knee, so I spend hours doing that each day! Looks like today I may get some respite. I do need it as it’s draining when it goes on and on!