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Bladder treatment

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This might be a bit controversial but part of being a lone piggy parent is trying to balance piggy care with self care. Squeaks doesn't realise what is amiss with him. As far as he's concerned he's OK a lot of the time and sometimes it hurts him to pee. So if he's OK with the metacam taking the edge off, try and give yourself a bit of time to digest this news. Anxiety gives a terrible sense of urgency that makes you want to sort everything straight away but sometimes we just can't - and not just because our wallet is battered. This sort of diagnosis does fit with his symptoms a bit more though doesn't it. If he's maintaining his weight and acting ok most of the time then he IS ok most of the time. He doesn't spend that time waiting for the next bout of difficulty or dreading the next pee. That's just us - and I'm so sorry because it's very hard to live with.

Can you find out what sort of scan he had and how clear it was? X-rays they take a picture and they should be able to send it to you via e-mail. These show stones in sharp focus. Ultrasound can identify stones but they are fuzzier and there isn't usually a picture - at least my vet doesn't do them. I've not had CT or anything like that. I'm just wondering whether they are certain there is a stone in the tube or whether it might be an accumulation of sludge or crystals, if you see what I mean.

If you can also find out whether this stone is in his ureter (between kidneys and bladder) or urethra (from bladder along penis to outside). We used to remember it as "you-wee-thra your urethra" in biology. I have heard that stones wedged in the urethra can sometimes be flushed back into the bladder but I have never had anything like this personally. This piggy Raymond had a bladder flush for sludge Sludge in bladder and he's also a younger boy. His owner says that 90% of the time he's fine. Now, even if this procedure is a possibility that's not to say it will be right for him, or even any use for you at this stage, because piggy Raymond had a bladder absolutely full of sludge. But it's something to hold in your pocket for the future. For now it's just keep on keeping on x
His bladder is fine, & I held Squeak while the vet did the scan. Its a stone, I think, ureter. His urine sample proved a few crystals. Just struggling to understand why. Since December, he's been on low calcium diet, grain free pellets, filtered water. So, why? Crystals
 
No-one knows. We try and make these changes to improve things for them but they can't help everypig. One of my vets said their ancestors evolved in environments with less calcium - tough, straggly plants grew in poorer soils - there's not much we can do about that. Nature doesn't tend to plan for prey animals living to a ripe old age. But piggies like your lovely boy don't get a fair deal at all. It's nothing you've done or not done. In other hands he could be a great deal worse off. Piggies teeth grow all the time so they need more access to calcium that boring old us with our static teeth. They actually have 2 ways of absorbing it - active and passive - to make certain they get enough. Piggies with weak or broken chewing teeth wouldn't last long at all. The down side then is having to get rid of the excess which relies on efficient kidneys and urinary tract.

There's been some musings recently about more Calcium Carbonate stones being found in pigs than other types. This might indeed be a recent change - or it might just be that nobody really looked properly before and just assumed they were the same thing as the stones found in omnivores like dogs and cats. There has been some speculation about pigs being kept inside more and outside less... is this related to more stones or different stones? In a way the question can't be answered because many piggies outside are pretty much left to their own devices so early signs wouldn't be spotted unless the owner knew what to look for. As you know, with indoor pigs the soundtrack to a painful pee is what you tend to notice quite quickly. When I had pigs as a child people said they would last 3-5 years. So if things started to go wrong at 3 people just expected it. Now we know a little better - in at least when some things go wrong we can seek treatment. My hope with my George was that his previously solid metabolism might have had an upset with his UTI and stone and that if I could just get him out more in the daylight maybe he could have his (second) big stone removed and stay free of them for a while. There wasn't really any evidence for this - just that Vitamin D (or one type of it at least) is needed to regulate calcium metabolism and that we get VitD from sunlight. Neither pigs nor people have evolved to live indoors and glass windows stops us making it. They recommend supplements for people but we must be wary for our pigs because 'regulate' is a vague term - maybe more VitD makes them absorb MORE calcium (like in people). Or maybe it makes no difference - upregulating active absorption which downregulates passive - or vice versa (that's part of the reason they have the two types). George was outside regularly for most of his life and although my pigs live inside he did like to sit by the open back door - that's where I sit with me cuppa too. I was grasping at straws with him really because my girls were in the same conditions, in all winter, and they were stone free. The bottom line for my lovely boy was that he was old, and something had to be the thing to give, and it was probably his kidneys. I think his pee went a bit too alkaline - more than the girls - although saying that I never bothered testing it when he was young and fit so maybe it was always thus. 6 was a good piggy age, I shouldn't be sad, although my heart misses him and his fluffy Louise so much. But trying to help them live a more 'natural' life by getting them out in the daylight to enjoy a little fresh air every day can't do any harm. That's how I saw it. So he sat on his warm pad and fleecey bed enjoying a veggie snack on my lap while I got my daylight quota too. It was a nice way to spend some loving time together 💕
 
of course we cannot advocate going against vet advice but i jusf want to ask Do you mean you are going to give the dog or cat metacam?
Can I ask you please, why has Cisapride been prescribed when there is nothing wrong with his gut? Its a urinary issue.
 
That’s a question for the vet really - it may be to ensure things do continue to keep moving properly.
I'm going to request a phone consultation with his wife, who works at the branch nearer to me, on Monday. I'm also not happy about the metacam dose. 0.4mls once a day. I've taken him off cystease, as his bladder is fine. I'm wondering if this has contributed to the crystals in his wee, cos its made from shells, & they are calcium carbonate
 
That’s a question for the vet really - it may be to ensure things do continue to keep moving properly.
I don't understand why,, he's gone from having no crystals in his wee, as recently as March 23rd, to having a few now, plus a little sludge. Nothing has changed regarding diet.
 
I don't understand why,, he's gone from having no crystals in his wee, as recently as March 23rd, to having a few now, plus a little sludge. Nothing has changed regarding diet.

It happens I’m afraid and you may never find the reason.
 
I don't understand why,, he's gone from having no crystals in his wee, as recently as March 23rd, to having a few now, plus a little sludge. Nothing has changed regarding diet.
I’m afraid it simply just happens. We can’t always find the reason why. But this isn’t any fault in your part at all. It’s happened to me and countless others on here
 
I’m afraid it simply just happens. We can’t always find the reason why. But this isn’t any fault in your part at all. It’s happened to me and countless others on here
I just don't know what to do now, regarding the cystease, cos the ultrasound of his actual bladder, is fine
 
Please be honest. Does anyone know roughly, what the life expectancy is for a guinea pig with a suspected stone in the ureter?
 
It depends if the stone can be successfully removed without any damage occuring to the kidneys.

There's not a one size fits all here. If the stone is blocking the ureter it's urgent as will be causing a back up in the kidneys (this happened to one of mine) but smaller stones may be letting the urine pass without a back up. A skilled vet may be able to remove it fairly promptly without any damage being done leading to a full recovery.

I was told by a very trusted exotics specialist that there is a lack of knowledge around stones. There is a lot talked about diet but he said there wasn't enough evidence that diet alone can impact stone formation and it's likely that genetics play a part too. This could mean that stones reform in future and obviously, depending on causing blockages or on the piggies age and general health at the time, future surgeries may be more risky. However, there is also the possibility that future stones don't occur and they go on to lead a normal, healthy life after.

Stones in the ureter can also be more problematic for males due to the shape of the ureter and that it has a kink in it before it reaches the bladder. A skilled and experienced vet is definitely needed for the best outcomes though again... If the stone is small enough the piggy may be able to pass it without surgery.

So, long story short, there are too many if's and buts and too many possible future scenarios to know whether this will be an easy to recover from one off or something more problematic and potentially life shortening in future
 
It depends if the stone can be successfully removed without any damage occuring to the kidneys.

There's not a one size fits all here. If the stone is blocking the ureter it's urgent as will be causing a back up in the kidneys (this happened to one of mine) but smaller stones may be letting the urine pass without a back up. A skilled vet may be able to remove it fairly promptly without any damage being done leading to a full recovery.

I was told by a very trusted exotics specialist that there is a lack of knowledge around stones. There is a lot talked about diet but he said there wasn't enough evidence that diet alone can impact stone formation and it's likely that genetics play a part too. This could mean that stones reform in future and obviously, depending on causing blockages or on the piggies age and general health at the time, future surgeries may be more risky. However, there is also the possibility that future stones don't occur and they go on to lead a normal, healthy life after.

Stones in the ureter can also be more problematic for males due to the shape of the ureter and that it has a kink in it before it reaches the bladder. A skilled and experienced vet is definitely needed for the best outcomes though again... If the stone is small enough the piggy may be able to pass it without surgery.

So, long story short, there are too many if's and buts and too many possible future scenarios to know whether this will be an easy to recover from one off or something more problematic and potentially life shortening in future
Vet won't operate. Said too risky, & he's an exotic vet. He's been prescribed Cisapride. Why? That's a gut moving medication & urinary related
 
I have no experience of cisapride.

I'm going to merge with your other thread as I have only just seen all the background behind this post
 
Vet won't operate. Said too risky, & he's an exotic vet. He's been prescribed Cisapride. Why? That's a gut moving medication & urinary related

You need to call the vet re the cisapride if you want to know their thinking.

As Kelly has said, there is no real answer because it depends on many factors.
If urine is still flowing then that is something and obviously means it isn’t yet big enough to have caused a full blockage.
A stone blocking the ureter which damage the kidneys. A stone which gets through the ureter and then into the bladder may be able to be removed from the bladder. If a stone moves from the bladder down into the urethra then in boars that can also be tricky because of the angle they have in their urethra where stones can get stuck.
 
You need to call the vet re the cisapride if you want to know their thinking.

As Kelly has said, there is no real answer because it depends on many factors.
If urine is still flowing then that is something and obviously means it isn’t yet big enough to have caused a full blockage.
A stone blocking the ureter which damage the kidneys. A stone which gets through the ureter and then into the bladder may be able to be removed from the bladder. If a stone moves from the bladder down into the urethra then in boars that can also be tricky because of the angle they have in their urethra where stones can get stuck.
Vet won't operate. Do stones get bigger then? Or can they stay the same size?
 
I really think you need to speak to the vet.
I’m sorry to be blunt, but what was the plan? Was the plan to see if he could pass it himself? Or was it simply to accept that it was inoperable and could not be passed? If so was the plan to wait until he was in significant distress and then euthanasia? I know I am sounding very blunt, but I’ve been in situations like this where the options were extremely limited and unpalatable as it seems, you need to be very clear with the vet what the actual options are. Best of luck.
 
I really think you need to speak to the vet.
I’m sorry to be blunt, but what was the plan? Was the plan to see if he could pass it himself? Or was it simply to accept that it was inoperable and could not be passed? If so was the plan to wait until he was in significant distress and then euthanasia? I know I am sounding very blunt, but I’ve been in situations like this where the options were extremely limited and unpalatable as it seems, you need to be very clear with the vet what the actual options are. Best of luck.
I wasn't even given a plan. Just carry on with metacam, & this Cisapride when I can get it. He won't operate, so maybe, yes, put to sleep 😭I'm ringing the vet branch thats closest to me on Monday to speak to another vet at the practice. Squeaks notes will be online for them to see. I feel so distressed, heartbroken.
 
I really think you need to speak to the vet.
I’m sorry to be blunt, but what was the plan? Was the plan to see if he could pass it himself? Or was it simply to accept that it was inoperable and could not be passed? If so was the plan to wait until he was in significant distress and then euthanasia? I know I am sounding very blunt, but I’ve been in situations like this where the options were extremely limited and unpalatable as it seems, you need to be very clear with the vet what the actual options are. Best of luck.
He won't get to be in significant distress. I won't let that happen to him 😢
 
He won't get to be in significant distress. I won't let that happen to him 😢

We are sure you won’t let that happen.
However, you do need to be aware that as soon as the stone blocks the flow of urine then it is immediately an emergency situation.

I’m so sorry this is happening to Squeaks and to you. We are all here to support you
 
We are sure you won’t let that happen.
However, you do need to be aware that as soon as the stone blocks the flow of urine then it is immediately an emergency situation.

I’m so sorry this is happening to Squeaks and to you. We are all here to support you
Hope it doesn't happen then while I'm at work. He will be suffering then 😭
 
We are sure you won’t let that happen.
However, you do need to be aware that as soon as the stone blocks the flow of urine then it is immediately an emergency situation.

I’m so sorry this is happening to Squeaks and to you. We are all here to support you
I've rang the vets & they said the Cisapride is to try & dissolve the stone, or move it further for him to try pass. This is a exotic specialist. I've got to wait 3 weeks after treatment starts, then take him back for a check up.
 
I've rang the vets & they said the Cisapride is to try & dissolve the stone, or move it further for him to try pass. This is a exotic specialist. I've got to wait 3 weeks after treatment starts, then take him back for a check up.

Ok. Can’t say I have ever heard of cisapride being used for this.
To my knowledge there isn’t really anything to dissolve stones, and cisapride causes intestinal contractions to keep food moving through the system. Not quite sure how it would help with a stone in a ureter but we aren’t vets!
Fingers crossed for him
 
Ok. Can’t say I have ever heard of cisapride being used for this.
To my knowledge there isn’t really anything to dissolve stones, and cisapride causes intestinal contractions to keep food moving through the system. Not quite sure how it would help with a stone in a ureter but we aren’t vets!
Fingers crossed for him
Thanks x
 
My George had a blocked bladder at one point. His first stone formed in his penis - actually at the end beneath the foreskin and it blocked him. I just picked him up one night for his usual unbunging and there was a big domed bulge in his lower tum like he'd swallowed a conker! It was very obvious... I freaked out a bit but half an hour later he must have managed to pee out and the bulge had gone down again. There was a lump in the penis as big as a bean. Next day the vet squeezed it out with a bit of lube. If Squeak is running about and eating normally don't worry too much. Blockage is something we have to watch out for, but most piggies with stones don't block up. I've had a few other stone piggies and none of them ever got blocked. My friend has had 4 boys and none have ever had a blockage. What you tend to hear more about on here is a boar grunting and squeaking as he pees out thick sludgy pee.

Cisapride is gut stimulant. It's useful if his appetite is affected and he's losing weight or if he gets bloated for some reason (like avoiding hay and overdoing the veggies). I've never seen it given for anything else. Maybe it was given as a just-in-case? If he's eating normally, pooping normally, and maintaining weight I'm not sure why he'd need it.

Citrate (i.e. potassium citrate) is prescribed sometimes when stones are present or after a stone surgery. It's a really tricky one as I'm not sure the results of using this are clear cut in pigs. But I don't think there's any harm in it as it's prescribed a lot by vets. As far as I can understand the idea is that calcium will bind to the citrate rather than binding to things like oxalate which can cause calcium oxalate stones. But some stones are 'struvite' (mixed composition, typically associated with infection) and some stones are calcium phosphate. And then of course there are the calcium carbonate stones that plagued George and which people now seem to think make up the majority of piggy stones. It gets prescribed for people with stones too, or other pets. It changes the pH of urine a bit by raising it (making it less acidic and more alkaline).

If you're a person, or maybe a cat, with really acidic urine (pH5.5 or less) you might form a uric acid stone and taking potassium citrate for a few weeks can raise the urine pH enough to dissolve these. But people and cat pee varies a lot in pH because we eat all different things - meaty and dairy things. Pigs just eat vegetation and their pee is typically pH8 - 9 so I'm not sure they could actually form a uric stone if they tried. Any UTI raises rather than lowers that pH too. And although I've only been on here a couple of years the forum has been running over 10 years and if someone had successfully dissolved a piggy stone in that time you can bet your socks it'd be all over the country by now! George tried a lot of cranberry juice (very acidic, pH 2.5) which he luckily liked and his issues meant he was super-thirsty so he slurped down plenty but it didn't alter his urine pH one jot. He also tried an American product called Sherwood urinary tablets (or something) which outrageously claimed to dissolve stones and was also based on cranberry - no effect on his stones or the pH so don't waste your money. The body is a very good 'buffer' and will adjust it's biochemistry to try and keep everything the same, whatever we shovel into it. That's why people consuming lemon juice (pH 2 because of the citric acid in this citrus fruit) get raised urine pH instead of lowered as the body adapts to what we put into it. But perhaps your vet was talking more along the lines of Pot Cit keeping crystal formation to a minimum to allow Squeak a bit of time to try and pee out whatever is blocking his tube (if it was his urethra). I hope very much it was just an accumulation of crystals or sludge rather than a sold stone as he may be able to flush that through.

Right - a bit more science so if you don't like science-y stuff just move to the last sentence of this paragraph☺️.There was a paper in 2015 that looked at the effect of Pot. Citrate in rats that had been bred to be genetically really prone to forming stones (my sympathies for the rats involved). They fed only half the group a diet with potassium citrate, tested all their pee up till 18 weeks, and then checked them for stones. It concluded, "the effect of potassium citrate on urine calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate supersaturation and stone formation is complex and difficult to predict" because there were chemical differences in the urine but "Both groups had similar numbers of exclusively calcium phosphate stones." The actual summary - the bottom line conclusion - was "Potassium citrate induces complex changes in urine chemistries and resultant supersaturation, which may not be beneficial in preventing calcium phosphate stone formation." Which once you've re-read it a few times basically says there's no clear answer one way or the other.

What a massive post, I'm sorry. Lots of speculation with no clear answers which, I'm afraid, pretty much sums up what is known about piggy stones. You treat your boy so tenderly when he's unwell but remember to enjoy your boys while they're cheerful. There's still a lot of happiness in his furry life x
 
My George had a blocked bladder at one point. His first stone formed in his penis - actually at the end beneath the foreskin and it blocked him. I just picked him up one night for his usual unbunging and there was a big domed bulge in his lower tum like he'd swallowed a conker! It was very obvious... I freaked out a bit but half an hour later he must have managed to pee out and the bulge had gone down again. There was a lump in the penis as big as a bean. Next day the vet squeezed it out with a bit of lube. If Squeak is running about and eating normally don't worry too much. Blockage is something we have to watch out for, but most piggies with stones don't block up. I've had a few other stone piggies and none of them ever got blocked. My friend has had 4 boys and none have ever had a blockage. What you tend to hear more about on here is a boar grunting and squeaking as he pees out thick sludgy pee.

Cisapride is gut stimulant. It's useful if his appetite is affected and he's losing weight or if he gets bloated for some reason (like avoiding hay and overdoing the veggies). I've never seen it given for anything else. Maybe it was given as a just-in-case? If he's eating normally, pooping normally, and maintaining weight I'm not sure why he'd need it.

Citrate (i.e. potassium citrate) is prescribed sometimes when stones are present or after a stone surgery. It's a really tricky one as I'm not sure the results of using this are clear cut in pigs. But I don't think there's any harm in it as it's prescribed a lot by vets. As far as I can understand the idea is that calcium will bind to the citrate rather than binding to things like oxalate which can cause calcium oxalate stones. But some stones are 'struvite' (mixed composition, typically associated with infection) and some stones are calcium phosphate. And then of course there are the calcium carbonate stones that plagued George and which people now seem to think make up the majority of piggy stones. It gets prescribed for people with stones too, or other pets. It changes the pH of urine a bit by raising it (making it less acidic and more alkaline).

If you're a person, or maybe a cat, with really acidic urine (pH5.5 or less) you might form a uric acid stone and taking potassium citrate for a few weeks can raise the urine pH enough to dissolve these. But people and cat pee varies a lot in pH because we eat all different things - meaty and dairy things. Pigs just eat vegetation and their pee is typically pH8 - 9 so I'm not sure they could actually form a uric stone if they tried. Any UTI raises rather than lowers that pH too. And although I've only been on here a couple of years the forum has been running over 10 years and if someone had successfully dissolved a piggy stone in that time you can bet your socks it'd be all over the country by now! George tried a lot of cranberry juice (very acidic, pH 2.5) which he luckily liked and his issues meant he was super-thirsty so he slurped down plenty but it didn't alter his urine pH one jot. He also tried an American product called Sherwood urinary tablets (or something) which outrageously claimed to dissolve stones and was also based on cranberry - no effect on his stones or the pH so don't waste your money. The body is a very good 'buffer' and will adjust it's biochemistry to try and keep everything the same, whatever we shovel into it. That's why people consuming lemon juice (pH 2 because of the citric acid in this citrus fruit) get raised urine pH instead of lowered as the body adapts to what we put into it. But perhaps your vet was talking more along the lines of Pot Cit keeping crystal formation to a minimum to allow Squeak a bit of time to try and pee out whatever is blocking his tube (if it was his urethra). I hope very much it was just an accumulation of crystals or sludge rather than a sold stone as he may be able to flush that through.

Right - a bit more science so if you don't like science-y stuff just move to the last sentence of this paragraph☺️.There was a paper in 2015 that looked at the effect of Pot. Citrate in rats that had been bred to be genetically really prone to forming stones (my sympathies for the rats involved). They fed only half the group a diet with potassium citrate, tested all their pee up till 18 weeks, and then checked them for stones. It concluded, "the effect of potassium citrate on urine calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate supersaturation and stone formation is complex and difficult to predict" because there were chemical differences in the urine but "Both groups had similar numbers of exclusively calcium phosphate stones." The actual summary - the bottom line conclusion - was "Potassium citrate induces complex changes in urine chemistries and resultant supersaturation, which may not be beneficial in preventing calcium phosphate stone formation." Which once you've re-read it a few times basically says there's no clear answer one way or the other.

What a massive post, I'm sorry. Lots of speculation with no clear answers which, I'm afraid, pretty much sums up what is known about piggy stones. You treat your boy so tenderly when he's unwell but remember to enjoy your boys while they're cheerful. There's still a lot of happiness in his furry life x
His stone is in his ureter. In your opinion, should I carry on with the cystease? Just a bit worried, as,, isn't cystease made from seashells? & they are calcium carbonate?. Squeak was amazing last night. Chasing Bubble in his usual hormone spike! 🤣 he is always eating. Mainly hay of course.
 
Cystease is fine to give.
I would be wondering whether it is benefitting him in this case - it helps the glucosamine layer in the bladder. Does he have a sore bladder? Some people give Cystease to their piggies after they have had a bladder stone and the bladder has been left damaged because of it


Glucosamine
 
Cystease is fine to give.
I would be wondering whether it is benefitting him in this case - it helps the glucosamine layer in the bladder. Does he have a sore bladder? Some people give Cystease to their piggies after they have had a bladder stone and the bladder has been left damaged because of it.

Glucosamine
When doing the ultrasound, vet said his bladder is fine
 
Right so if his bladder is fine at this point then I’m not sure glucosamine will be making much difference.
Giving it to him won’t harm him, but it may not be benefiting him either.

His bladder is fine because a stone in the ureter hasnt got in the bladder. Is the stone likely the move from the ureter and into the bladder and then be able to be removed or is it actually stuck in the ureter (although of course at this point it isn’t blocking urine flow into the bladder) and that’s why the vet doesn’t have any plan of action going forward?
 
Right so if his bladder is fine at this point then I’m not sure glucosamine will be making much difference.
Giving it to him won’t harm him, but it may not be benefiting him either.

His bladder is fine because a stone in the ureter hasnt got in the bladder. Is the stone likely the move from the ureter and into the bladder and then be able to be removed or is it actually stuck in the ureter (although of course at this point it isn’t blocking urine flow into the bladder) and that’s why the vet doesn’t have any plan of action going forward?
He never mentioned the stone moving either. Not sure i can afford surgery if it gets to his bladder, 😢the manager of the rescue had surgery on one of her pigs with a bladder stone. He didn't make it. Vet isn’t keen on any surgery as he told me its too risky. The plan going forward for now,,, is metacam, & cisapride for 3 weeks, then back to the vets for another ultrasound. He was brilliant last night. Very active.
 
He never mentioned the stone moving either. Not sure i can afford surgery if it gets to his bladder, 😢the manager of the rescue had surgery on one of her pigs with a bladder stone. He didn't make it. Vet isn’t keen on any surgery as he told me its too risky. The plan going forward for now,,, is metacam, & cisapride for 3 weeks, then back to the vets for another ultrasound. He was brilliant last night. Very active.

We have lots of pigs on the forum who have had a stone removed from the bladder successfully. They can sadly go on to form more stones though if there is a genetic element. Some don’t form more and live a normal life. It needs an experienced and confident vet to do it though

I think if it’s the case that the vet won’t remove a stone then you need to get to the advice (for your own sake) whether the vet is now thinking palliative care. If it is palliative care then you make sure he is kept comfortable and don’t worry about the normal ‘rules’.
I just don’t want you to get hopes up that cisapride will dissolve a stone - as free ranger has said if stones could be dissolved I’m sure the forum would have heard
 
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