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Baytril not working?

I don't know anything about bloat but if she is still in pain sometimes vets give a second, different painkiller like gabapentin or tramadol. I don't know if they would in her case as my pigs had totally different illnesses when they got those added on top of their metacam.
 
I apologise if this is a daft question, but how often should they be eating hay? It’s been so long since they’ve been eating normally I’ve genuinely forgotten what normal piggy eating behaviour looka like :(
 
piggy.pack said:
I apologise if this is a daft question, but how often should they be eating hay? It’s been so long since they’ve been eating normally I’ve genuinely forgotten what normal piggy eating behaviour looka like :(
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Generally speaking there is not an amount of time set, but they should be munching often.

I often find my boys at their hay 8/10 times I will come into their room, the other times they will be sleeping or begging for treats.
I often find if I come in and they are sleeping me talking or watching a show makes them more active.

Are any of your girls eating hay? I am sure you know by now but the only way you can actually tell how much they are consuming is by weighing them weekly, or in your case weighing daily, but to actually see them it should be at least a couple times a day when you enter.
My boys normally munch for around 20 minutes to an hour at the longest.
 
piggl said:
Generally speaking there is not an amount of time set, but they should be munching often.

I often find my boys at their hay 8/10 times I will come into their room, the other times they will be sleeping or begging for treats.
I often find if I come in and they are sleeping me talking or watching a show makes them more active.

Are any of your girls eating hay? I am sure you know by now but the only way you can actually tell how much they are consuming is by weighing them weekly, or in your case weighing daily, but to actually see them it should be at least a couple times a day when you enter.
My boys normally munch for around 20 minutes to an hour at the longest.
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Yeah they are eating but not very much, I’ll put fresh hay in and they’ll munch for 5-10 minutes and then lie down exhausted. I’m syringe feeding but I’m so exhausted :(
 
piggy.pack said:
Hi all!

I’ve made a new thread on here as my other one wasn’t receiving any replies.

I have three pigs who’ve been on Baytril for over 2 weeks now and I have seen very little progress.

They began gaining weight and being a bit more energetic, but that was about it, their snot also cleared and went clear for a while, but now it is back to very very bright green and they all have a little nibble on some hay (barely) and then sleep for a good few hours.

Would it be likely the Baytril isn’t working then? As I know progress isn’t linear and I told this to my vet a week ago and he said to continue the course on but they just seem to be getting worse.

I’m calling them up tomorrow and I’m going to try and be firm to press for another antibiotic, I’ve heard good things about Zithromax please let me know any other suggestions.

I am very exhausted and trying everything I can. Thank you all for all your help!
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I don't know if you can get cbd's for animals out where you are but they work great and it only takes one eyedropper full
 
Hi there, in the UK these products are not authorised for veterinary use so vets commit an offence if they are prescribed. This might change in the future (I know they are available over-the-counter for people) but right now their use is not encouraged. If people are into this sort of thing they might feel tempted to buy a people version and give it a go but the dosage for our tiny pigs compared to a massive person is a serious gamble - as is the potential effect of any medicines pigs are on interacting with things added into the mix, or the risk of cbd products on an already sensitive gut.

The piggies in this thread are battling what looks like something contagious as they all have similar symptoms so although it's a hard slog for the OP right now we're all hoping this knowledgeable vet will be able to get to the bottom of things when the culture swabs come through.

@piggy.pack in my eyes anypig over a kilo is still doing OK. This might be psychological, but my girl who survived for weeks on syringe food alone maintained an active life at 950g down from her prime weight of 1.2kg. Old George was a hefty 1.3kg at his mature weight but maintained himself around 950g for several months until his final decline. My vet's old boy was lighter, but having been introduced to a pinch of dry oats every day he put a bit back on!
 
Mindi said:
I don't know if you can get cbd's for animals out where you are but they work great and it only takes one eyedropper full
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They’ve got quite a nasty infection and although I do appreciate your input, I doubt that’d make much difference at this point and may do more harm than good!
 
Free Ranger said:
Hi there, in the UK these products are not authorised for veterinary use so vets commit an offence if they are prescribed. This might change in the future (I know they are available over-the-counter for people) but right now their use is not encouraged. If people are into this sort of thing they might feel tempted to buy a people version and give it a go but the dosage for our tiny pigs compared to a massive person is a serious gamble - as is the potential effect of any medicines pigs are on interacting with things added into the mix, or the risk of cbd products on an already sensitive gut.

The piggies in this thread are battling what looks like something contagious as they all have similar symptoms so although it's a hard slog for the OP right now we're all hoping this knowledgeable vet will be able to get to the bottom of things when the culture swabs come through.

@piggy.pack in my eyes anypig over a kilo is still doing OK. This might be psychological, but my girl who survived for weeks on syringe food alone maintained an active life at 950g down from her prime weight of 1.2kg. Old George was a hefty 1.3kg at his mature weight but maintained himself around 950g for several months until his final decline. My vet's old boy was lighter, but having been introduced to a pinch of dry oats every day he put a bit back on!
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Thanks for the advice! Will do the oats further down the line as I know it shouldn’t be introduced long term :) Will keep trundling on with syringe food and wait for the culture results! Thank you again!
 
piggy.pack said:
Yeah they are eating but not very much, I’ll put fresh hay in and they’ll munch for 5-10 minutes and then lie down exhausted. I’m syringe feeding but I’m so exhausted :(
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I would definitely give the oats a try, will hopefully help your girls bulk up a little.

There is no general side affect of giving them long term, plain oats are great for weight gain and help stabilising a sick older piggie (in my experience), or just a sick piggie in need of some help gaining weight.

I use just plain porridge oats from the shop.
 
piggl said:
I would definitely give the oats a try, will hopefully help your girls bulk up a little.

There is no general side affect of giving them long term, plain oats are great for weight gain and help stabilising a sick older piggie (in my experience), or just a sick piggie in need of some help gaining weight.

I use just plain porridge oats from the shop.
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Awesome so could I mix a few into my cc? That’d help me cost wise aswell!
 
piggy.pack said:
Awesome so could I mix a few into my cc? That’d help me cost wise aswell!
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I would just give the some oats dry and plain in a separate bowl and put it in the cage if they will eat them voluntarily.

You might get some oats to go through a syringe if you’ve cut the end off of it but you may need to grind the oats up first.
 
Piggies&buns said:
I would just give the some oats dry and plain in a separate bowl and put it in the cage if they will eat them voluntarily.

You might get some oats to go through a syringe if you’ve cut the end off of it but you may need to grind the oats up first.
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Amazing thank you guys so much! Poor Bea’s poops are very very sloppy. The only thing I can think of that has changed in the last 2-3 days is the introduction of a diuretic. Besides Fibreplex of course anything I can do to help that?
 
When Benito was ill a couple of months ago my vet advised to add some melting oat flakes to his cc to keep is weight up. They completely dissolve in the cc so you can feed them via syringe. I’m in Austria but I hope you can also get them where you are. Just an option if they don’t like plain oats. ☺️
 
Oh god I’ve accidentally just given Bea and Meep their 0.5ml metacam dog 6 hours after their last dose instead of twelve as I have to give emeprid 3x a day and I’m so exhausted I got confused. I’m really really freaking out, I can’t afford anymore treatement. I don’t know what to do I’m absolutely terrified.
 
piggy.pack said:
Oh god I’ve accidentally just given Bea and Meep their 0.5ml metacam dog 6 hours after their last dose instead of twelve as I have to give emeprid 3x a day and I’m so exhausted I got confused. I’m really really freaking out, I can’t afford anymore treatement. I don’t know what to do I’m absolutely terrified.
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Don't worry, most vets who don't know about piggies' fast metabolism give metacam only once a day rather than splitting the dose. Just give them their next dose at the normal time, ie tomorrow morning, they should be fine. And if you haven't already, give them the Emeprid that was due, now.

Sorry it's all making you so stressed :hug:
 
Qualcast&Flymo said:
Don't worry, most vets who don't know about piggies' fast metabolism give metacam only once a day rather than splitting the dose. Just give them their next dose at the normal time, ie tomorrow morning, they should be fine. And if you haven't already, give them the Emeprid that was due, now.

Sorry it's all making you so stressed :hug:
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Sorry just double checking I said that right, they ARE perscribed 0.5ml x2 a day and I’ve accidentally given them it 6hrs after instead of 12hrs after.

I’ve been giving emeprid 3x a day and accidentally gave metacam with the second dose of emeprid, at midday, when the second emeprid dose was due.
 
piggy.pack said:
Sorry just double checking I said that right, they ARE perscribed 0.5ml x2 a day and I’ve accidentally given them it 6hrs after instead of 12hrs after.

I’ve been giving emeprid 3x a day and accidentally gave metacam with the second dose of emeprid, at midday, when the second emeprid dose was due.
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Apologies, I didn't explain that very well. I was trying to reassure you that not splitting the full amount of Metacam into 2 doses 12 hours apart wouldn't cause a problem.
I have very occasionally given Squeaks his evening and morning dose (0.4ml each) in one go in the evening, when I'm out overnight, because I can trust my son to give them their veg, but not medicine. Then I give the next 0.4ml dose as normal the next evening
 
Qualcast&Flymo said:
Apologies, I didn't explain that very well. I was trying to reassure you that not splitting the full amount of Metacam into 2 doses 12 hours apart wouldn't cause a problem.
I have very occasionally given Squeaks his evening and morning dose (0.4ml each) in one go in the evening, when I'm out overnight, because I can trust my son to give them their veg, but not medicine. Then I give the next 0.4ml dose as normal the next evening
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Oh my word thank you so very much, thank you thank you thank you I feel so much better.
 
Culture came back! It’s an infection, and the curious thing is they tested it with all the antibiotics I have used on them and all of them worked. Really really strange. They tested for resistance and found nothing. Really really bizarre. I’ve been given Marbocyl as it’s the last one we have to try. I’m so nervous. Any thoughts?
 
Did they say what the infection was caused by? Bacteria? Fungus? Or a big long name like staphylococcus, bordatella, pneumococcus, pseudomonas?

You won't have done anything wrong. There can be all sorts of reasons ABs don't work as expected. It doesn't just depend on the bug, it can depend a great deal on the circumstances. Your vet will probably be considering things like these below when they prescribed you treatment. It has all got a bit complicated but it's not down to anything you've done. All these factors are in play for any infection but we don't think about it as long as the medicine works...

Biofilms
One thing is that infections in the body aren't just a 'soup' of bacteria floating around - some of them stick to surfaces and multiply to form a bio-film which can change how much of the AB can get to the bacteria - the surface ones might be killed off but further down they are more protected and can grow back up again. Some bacteria can detect that they have attached to something solid and start to produce sticking substances to grip firmly to that and to other bacteria. That's why when George had a bladder stone he got particularly stubborn UTIs that hung around - they were probably coating that stone. People who have catheters in are more at risk from repeated infections which cling to the catheter.

Phase of Growth
Another thing can be whether the bacteria are actively growing at all. Sometimes AB act only on growing bacteria by blocking their active metabolism. So if bugs go through a phase of not replicating or dividing and just hang around passively the AB has nothing to act on. In humans you see this dormancy with tuberculosis (TB) - although obvs in the UK we don't see this so much these days. The TB bug can hang around being dormant for flippin ages so people who carry it have to go on really long courses of treatment to make sure they get rid of it all - like months and months. (But don't fret - it's not a piggy thing!)

Aerobes/Anaerobes
One more thing is that some bacteria can only survive in oxygen rich conditions ('aerobic' - just like the normal air we breathe all the time) and some can only manage in oxygen depleted conditions ('anaerobic' - like down in the smelly mud at the bottom of a pond) but some can manage in both and they change their metabolism accordingly. You'd think the lungs would be aerobic but if you get sticky bacterial colonies right down deep into the lungs they can sometimes generate a little local anaerobic environment as they gum themselves into little pockets. When cultures are tested for sensitivity to antibiotics it's usually done under aerobic conditions (they just put the plates in an incubator). Under anaerobic conditions the altered metabolism can sometimes affect antibiotic sensitivity - maybe making bugs more sensitive or more resistant. The former isn't a problem but the latter can be. Have a look at this picture:
1685481462929.png
This shows a common way to test for resistance in the lab. They grow up your swab sample and spread it on a plate and put tiny circles of paper on which have been soaked in antibiotic. Then they incubate the plate, the bacteria grow to form a slightly stinky, opaque covering all over, but you see clear rings round the papers where the AB has leached into the growth medium and stopped bacterial growth. If the culture grows right up to the paper the bacteria are resistant to that AB (or like in the picture you use a 'Control' which is just the paper with no AB). If there is a really big clear ring the bacteria are very sensitive so that is a good one to choose as even lower concentrations will kill the bug off.

So it's going to be a combination of type of bug, phase of growth, amount of sticky biofilm and what sort of metabolism that will determine which AB is effective. (And yes, I did used to be a microbiologist a very long time ago!) I hope that makes sense - and I hope the latest AB hammers that bug hard x
 
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Free Ranger said:
Did they say what the infection was caused by? Bacteria? Fungus? Or a big long name like straphylococcus, bordatella, pneumococcus, pseudomonas?

You won't have done anything wrong. There can be all sorts of reasons ABs don't work as expected. It doesn't just depend on the bug, it can depend a great deal on the circumstances. Your vet will probably be considering things like these below when they prescribed you treatment. It has all got a bit complicated but it's not down to anything you've done. All these factors are in play for any infection but we don't think about it as long as the medicine works...

Biofilms
One thing is that infections in the body aren't just a 'soup' of bacteria floating around - some of them stick to surfaces and multiply to form a bio-film which can change how much of the AB can get to the bacteria - the surface ones might be killed off but further down they are more protected and can grow back up again. Some bacteria can detect that they have attached to something solid and start to produce sticking substances to grip firmly to that and to other bacteria. That's why when George had a bladder stone he got particularly stubborn UTIs that hung around - they were probably coating that stone. People who have catheters in are more at risk from repeated infections which cling to the catheter.

Phase of Growth
Another thing can be whether the bacteria are actively growing at all. Sometimes AB act only on growing bacteria by blocking their active metabolism. So if bugs go through a phase of not replicating or dividing and just hang around passively the AB has nothing to act on. In humans you see this dormancy with tuberculosis (TB) - although obvs in the UK we don't see this so much these days. The TB bug can hang around being dormant for flippin ages so people who carry it have to go on really long courses of treatment to make sure they get rid of it all - like months and months. (But don't fret - it's not a piggy thing!)

Aerobes/Anaerobes
One more thing is that some bacteria can only survive in oxygen rich conditions ('aerobic' - just like the normal air we breathe all the time) and some can only manage in oxygen depleted conditions ('anaerobic' - like down in the smelly mud at the bottom of a pond) but some can manage in both and they change their metabolism accordingly. You'd think the lungs would be aerobic but if you get sticky bacterial colonies right down deep into the lungs they can sometimes generate a little local anaerobic environment as they gum themselves into little pockets. When cultures are tested for sensitivity to antibiotics it's usually done under aerobic conditions (they just put the plates in an incubator). Under anaerobic conditions the altered metabolism can sometimes affect antibiotic sensitivity - maybe making bugs more sensitive or more resistant. The former isn't a problem but the latter can be. Have a look at this picture:
View attachment 225541
This shows a common way to test for resistance in the lab. They grow up your swab sample and spread it on a plate and put tiny circles of paper on which have been soaked in antibiotic. Then they incubate the plate, the bacteria grow to form a slightly stinky, opaque covering all over, but you see clear rings round the papers where the AB has leached into the growth medium and stopped bacterial growth. If the culture grows right up to the paper the bacteria are resistant to that AB (or like in the picture you use a 'Control' which is just the paper with no AB). If there is a really big clear ring the bacteria are very sensitive so that is a good one to choose as even lower concentrations will kill the bug off.

So it's going to be a combination of type of bug, phase of growth, amount of sticky biofilm and what sort of metabolism that will determine which AB is effective. (And yes, I did used to be a microbiologist a very long time ago!) I hope that makes sense - and I hope the latest AB hammers that bug hard x
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I don’t know what to say! Except your piggies are extremely lucky to have an owner such as yourself! The name of the exact infection name escapes me as it was long, but I think it had an M in it.

She said yes bacterial. And that it responded well to all antibiotics we’d tried which is bizarre. Gosh I hope Marbocyl works.

Also wanted to ask, there’s no way all the fibreplex I’m giving them would be messing up it’s effectiveness? As during their last doses obviously they were not eating much so there’d be and fairly empty gut with probiotics floating around.

I did the 2 hours afterwards as instructed, but I can’t help but get the feeling that may have cocked it up. As on their first go with Baytril they perked up in 3 days and then began going down again as I assume the probiotics worked their way through their gut. I’m absolutely no expert in this and this is likely just clutching at straws, but I’d love to specifically get your input, being so wonderfully knowledgeble.

Thank you so much for taking your time to explain that in a way I could understand as well (being bottom of the class in science at high school). Thank you a million times you are just amazing!:))
 
Free Ranger said:
Did they say what the infection was caused by? Bacteria? Fungus? Or a big long name like straphylococcus, bordatella, pneumococcus, pseudomonas?

You won't have done anything wrong. There can be all sorts of reasons ABs don't work as expected. It doesn't just depend on the bug, it can depend a great deal on the circumstances. Your vet will probably be considering things like these below when they prescribed you treatment. It has all got a bit complicated but it's not down to anything you've done. All these factors are in play for any infection but we don't think about it as long as the medicine works...

Biofilms
One thing is that infections in the body aren't just a 'soup' of bacteria floating around - some of them stick to surfaces and multiply to form a bio-film which can change how much of the AB can get to the bacteria - the surface ones might be killed off but further down they are more protected and can grow back up again. Some bacteria can detect that they have attached to something solid and start to produce sticking substances to grip firmly to that and to other bacteria. That's why when George had a bladder stone he got particularly stubborn UTIs that hung around - they were probably coating that stone. People who have catheters in are more at risk from repeated infections which cling to the catheter.

Phase of Growth
Another thing can be whether the bacteria are actively growing at all. Sometimes AB act only on growing bacteria by blocking their active metabolism. So if bugs go through a phase of not replicating or dividing and just hang around passively the AB has nothing to act on. In humans you see this dormancy with tuberculosis (TB) - although obvs in the UK we don't see this so much these days. The TB bug can hang around being dormant for flippin ages so people who carry it have to go on really long courses of treatment to make sure they get rid of it all - like months and months. (But don't fret - it's not a piggy thing!)

Aerobes/Anaerobes
One more thing is that some bacteria can only survive in oxygen rich conditions ('aerobic' - just like the normal air we breathe all the time) and some can only manage in oxygen depleted conditions ('anaerobic' - like down in the smelly mud at the bottom of a pond) but some can manage in both and they change their metabolism accordingly. You'd think the lungs would be aerobic but if you get sticky bacterial colonies right down deep into the lungs they can sometimes generate a little local anaerobic environment as they gum themselves into little pockets. When cultures are tested for sensitivity to antibiotics it's usually done under aerobic conditions (they just put the plates in an incubator). Under anaerobic conditions the altered metabolism can sometimes affect antibiotic sensitivity - maybe making bugs more sensitive or more resistant. The former isn't a problem but the latter can be. Have a look at this picture:
View attachment 225541
This shows a common way to test for resistance in the lab. They grow up your swab sample and spread it on a plate and put tiny circles of paper on which have been soaked in antibiotic. Then they incubate the plate, the bacteria grow to form a slightly stinky, opaque covering all over, but you see clear rings round the papers where the AB has leached into the growth medium and stopped bacterial growth. If the culture grows right up to the paper the bacteria are resistant to that AB (or like in the picture you use a 'Control' which is just the paper with no AB). If there is a really big clear ring the bacteria are very sensitive so that is a good one to choose as even lower concentrations will kill the bug off.

So it's going to be a combination of type of bug, phase of growth, amount of sticky biofilm and what sort of metabolism that will determine which AB is effective. (And yes, I did used to be a microbiologist a very long time ago!) I hope that makes sense - and I hope the latest AB hammers that bug hard x
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Just got the offical name of the bug! It’s Staphylococcus aureus! Any thoughts Free Ranger? :)
 
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