4th Match Failed= Devastated

[oxtinamona]

P.S. What does the full blown fight look like please?
I am Asking as they had a fight on Monday week ago when I first started
Mixing them... And a squabble today as she got jealous of the hay box I moved
Downstairs in good faith so they both have access to it, but she just ruined it and they had a bit of a nip/jump at
Each other situation - God knows how to describe it. No wounds or cuts or scratches though

 

[Wiebke]

Just to let you know that Wiebke has been dealing with an emergency of her own with her boy Hywel,so that's probably why she's not been on much.
I'll take a look at your vids and let you know what I think...

Oh no, I hope her boy is ok
Poor pigaroo x

Thanks, @VickiA and @oxtinamona . Hywel needed another full emergency abscess operation today, so instead of a relatively quick trip to an experienced vet, I have been out for most of the day and have been very busy with catching up upon my return.
Hywel has come round well from his op, considering his age and his fairly recent op. Thankfully, this time his teeth are not affected. The next weeks will tell whether we can get on top of this new abscess or not. As his jawbone is affected, Hywel is very prone to developing further abscesses and the long term diagnosis is not good.

I'll have a look at your videos once I am less frazzled.

 

[oxtinamona]

We washed it all with F10 and vinegar as well... It was all sprayed ... Maybe we didn't do the best job despite? Don't know. We didn't have that problem with the other couple.
We have them in the play pen again now as I went with Pig in the city's advice shown earlier in this thread ... I just didn't know what to do before we went to bed. They do seem quiet and sleeping at the moment in there too, which leads me to believe she did feel that cage was her home
In light of that - how long should I keep them in the mixing pen? X

 

[oxtinamona]

Thanks, @VickiA and @oxtinamona . Hywel needed another full emergency abscess operation today, so instead of a relatively quick trip to an experienced vet, I have been out for most of the day and have been very busy with catching up upon my return.
Hywel has come round well from his op, considering his age and his fairly recent op. Thankfully, this time his teeth are not affected. The next weeks will tell whether we can get on top of this new abscess or not. As his jawbone is affected, Hywel is very prone to developing further abscesses and the long term diagnosis is not good.

I'll have a look at your videos once I am less frazzled.

Oh now, poor gorgeous boy X what's cussing him to be prone to abscess if you don't mind me asking? I wish we could all just take all the illnesses away from them. They are so tiny, it breaks my heart when they suffer. Keep us posted on how this handsome boy is doing x

 

[tabelmabel]

Thank goodness someone who actually knows what they're talking about was able to come along before bedtime! Thanks @VickiA!

I had a look at your films @oxtinamona - it was interesting for me to see the analysis of the behaviour, even though I'd taken myself off to watch some tv emergencies, leaving others to calm your stress levels!

sorry to hear @Wiebke has a real life emergency situation - sending lots of healing vibes for hywel. Hope he recovers well.


Here's hoping you both get a good night's sleep and all is good in the morning x

 

[Wiebke]

Ok. Here's my view after watching your vids. It hasn't totally failed in that there is no overt aggression and no full blown fighting. She is very dominant and he is by and large accepting his position. Neither appears to me to be very unhappy although neither looks particularly happy or relaxed (although there were a few popcorns in the first vid). He backs off and steers clear but she's still very wary of him. What are things like at meal time? Does she let him eat?

I agree with @VickiA 's view. Your lady is very much throwing her weight around and is still on the confrontational/wary side, but it is this side of the line. Fights will only start if your boy is picking up the gauntlet, which he is clearly not doing. The tension in that case would be on a completely different level. There are not many videos because you are generally too busy separating with your hands in oven gloves.

Make sure that you have got more than one hay corner and only hideys with exits on opposite sides or open ones like stools, so there is no "locking in" of an underpiggy. The same goes for water bottles. Serve any veg and pellets in small portions in a bowl each per piggy, and place them well apart. Hopefully, as time goes by, she is going to settle down more, but it is likely going to take a few weeks until the dominance phase is over. It is clearly not the happiest of bondings, as your lady clearly has got issues.

It is as much a myth that litter brothers won't fight, as that all sows and boys will inevitably get on; they are too much like people in fur coats. I have had my share of cross gender bondings that didn't go to plan; and it's taught me some valuable lessons. The one thing that I have learned is not never take anything for granted. What looks great on paper doesn't necessarily survive the first encounter or the second... On the other hand, two guinea pigs will click that you would have never expected to.

 

[oxtinamona]

@ Wiebke ... Do you think there's any point to continue this then? I don't want them to be unhappy... I saw them together happy San excited and zooming and popcorning on Saturday and took it as a sign that they are ready to be moved into their cage. Looks like I was wrong again. If we pursue then will they ever settle and be happy? Or is it unlikely?

All I want to do is to ensure that I'm doing the right thing. Even if it'll be extremely hard to take him back to the shelter I would like him to have a chance to find his sow-wife so he can be happy... Don't want to force it, just because we may find it hard to take him back, as we have obviously fallen in love with this gorgeous boy

I wasn't actually separating them since last Monday, although we have the dustpan at ready we kept our cool and didn't get involved as we haven't see what I'm imagining is a full on fight...we won't till I see serious cuts... All I found past week were couple of scratches and two slightly deeper ones, but not deeper than 2-3 millimeters , more like misjudged nips. Again I may be very very wrong here.

We have more videos and I can upload if that could help us, but I didn't want to put too much on here... They don't have any hideys anymore as I felt she'll get territorial over them as well... They feel safe at the bottom cage as it has roof of course .

@Wiebke @VickiA do you both agree I should try swapping cages so the bottom one is completely new to her too? Would it work?
At the moment they are back to the mixing pen all clean and different set up to one they had till Saturday and instantly Simon and I saw her confidence dropped ...

P.S. @Wiebke how is your little
darling boy doing ? X

 

[Wiebke]

Oh now, poor gorgeous boy X what's cussing him to be prone to abscess if you don't mind me asking? I wish we could all just take all the illnesses away from them. They are so tiny, it breaks my heart when they suffer. Keep us posted on how this handsome boy is doing x

Hywel developed a dental root abscess last year that by the time it had was erupting had already eaten into the jawbone. In April, a regrown tooth shard caused another abscess, which went further into the body. Unfortunately, the second, much bigger abscess coincided with my husband having a full operation and Simon Maddock going on holiday, so about the worst timing possible.

The more guinea pigs you have, the greater the chances that you end up with problems sooner or later. Hywel is coming up to 7 years old; he's had over 5 very happy years as the Tribe leader of up to 13 sows in his best times - as far as piggy lives go, he's had a stellar career!

I have learned to concentrate on giving my piggies a happy life, however long or short, as that is what I can control and what really counts when the chips are down. I can't control how long my piggies live and what they ultimately die of apart from giving them a reasonable chance and calling it quits whenever their quality of life can no longer be maintained or guaranteed in order to spare them any unnecessary suffering. In the time span I that have lived with guinea pigs, they have gone from beneath most vet's notice/knowledge to possible treatment for a wide range of issues. Medicine is currently very much in flux where pets are concerned. It still has its limits and will continue to have them, however further we push.

 

[Wiebke]

@ Wiebke ... Do you think there's any point to continue this then? I don't want them to be unhappy... I saw them together happy San excited and zooming and popcorning on Saturday and took it as a sign that they are ready to be moved into their cage. Looks like I was wrong again. If we pursue then will they ever settle and be happy? Or is it unlikely?

All I want to do is to ensure that I'm doing the right thing. Even if it'll be extremely hard to take him back to the shelter I would like him to have a chance to find his sow-wife so he can be happy... Don't want to force it, just because we may find it hard to take him back, as we have obviously fallen in love with this gorgeous boy

I wasn't actually separating them since last Monday, although we have the dustpan at ready we kept our cool and didn't get involved as we haven't see what I'm imagining is a full on fight...we won't till I see serious cuts... All I found past week were couple of scratches and two slightly deeper ones, but not deeper than 2-3 millimeters , more like misjudged nips. Again I may be very very wrong here.

We have more videos and I can upload if that could help us, but I didn't want to put too much on here... They don't have any hideys anymore as I felt she'll get territorial over them as well... They feel safe at the bottom cage as it has roof of course .

@Wiebke @VickiA do you both agree I should try swapping cages so the bottom one is completely new to her too? Would it work?
At the moment they are back to the mixing pen all clean and different set up to one they had till Saturday and instantly Simon and I saw her confidence dropped ...

P.S. @Wiebke how is your little
darling boy doing ? X

Your girl is what I call very fear-aggressive in her behaviour, i.e. like with most belligerent piggies, the aggression is in fact a reflection of her insecurity and anxiety. Keep them in the mixing pen and let her settle down. Don;t try to change the parameters too often, as that will only add to her feeling of insecurity. She has to learn that there is nothing for her to be afraid of, but that is something she has to experience, and it is a very gradual, slow process.

 

[oxtinamona]

Oh bless his, 13 sows! What a harem to lead! I am sure that whatever happens he had fab life with you. As you said X that's all we can do, after all most of piggies are brought to world in horrible human provoked contentions...can only try to make it better for all the furries. I hope your husband's recovery will be swift and free of any complications x

 

[oxtinamona]

Spot on @Wiebke, I read your post about bonding and fear aggressive pigs and I can honestly say she ticked every single one of the boxes for these behaviours. Every single one of them X she is also jealous! Like a stroppy teenager. It's heartbreaking she's like this.
How long shall we keep them in the mixing pen?


QUOTE="Wiebke, post: 1889732, member: 3906"]Your girl is what is call very fear-aggressive in her behaviour, i.e. like with most belligerent piggies, the aggression is in fact a reflection of her insecurity and anxiety. Keep them in the mixing pen and let her settle down. Don;t try to change the parameters too often, as that will only add to her feeling of insecurity. She has to learn that there is nothing for her to be afraid of, but that is something she has to experience, and it is a very gradual, slow process.[/QUOTE]

 

[Wiebke]

Spot on @Wiebke, I read your post about bonding and fear aggressive pigs and I can honestly say she ticked every single one of the boxes for these behaviours. Every single one of them X she is also jealous! Like a stroppy teenager. It's heartbreaking she's like this.
How long shall we keep them in the mixing pen?


QUOTE="Wiebke, post: 1889732, member: 3906"]Your girl is what is call very fear-aggressive in her behaviour, i.e. like with most belligerent piggies, the aggression is in fact a reflection of her insecurity and anxiety. Keep them in the mixing pen and let her settle down. Don;t try to change the parameters too often, as that will only add to her feeling of insecurity. She has to learn that there is nothing for her to be afraid of, but that is something she has to experience, and it is a very gradual, slow process.

[/QUOTE]

Until things are more relaxed. It may take a few days; this a game of patience you have to play. If they are not getting better, then I would consider calling the bonding as failed.

PS: Whenever you want to open to the top half of the cage, just peg a blanket over the top or part of it to make it feel more secure.

 

[oxtinamona]

Ok. We will wait few days and continue to observe them. I take that it doesn't matter if we return them to the same cage then? Will we have to disinfect it again, Or shall we leave it as it is and returned them both in there once/If they setlle?

 

[pig in the city]

So sorry that l didn't respond yesterday, l too have been busy at the vets all day, routine ops though, no emergencies. I agree completely with Weibke. I don't think you need to clean the cage again, but don't rush to put them back in until you see consistent positive and relaxed behaviour. You are definitely not a failure! Bonding is stressful and time consuming but so worth it when you get there! X

 

[oxtinamona]

Hello, no need to apologise at all - I know everyone is busy with their lives and pigs too hope the op went well.

Gosh I wish you guys lived closer but everyone on forum is miles away! None in Norfolk owns pigs clearly hahaha.

Can I just ask what would you describe as 'relaxed behaviours' please?

I want to ensure I won't make a mistake yet again and stress them out by placing on the cage to early.. Initially I thought that when they lay down, with legs out etc that means they are relaxed and it would appear I wasn't right here... So if someone could advise what to look out for in terms of relaxed bahviours that whould be fine?

So sorry that l didn't respond yesterday, l too have been busy at the vets all day, routine ops though, no emergencies. I agree completely with Weibke. I don't think you need to clean the cage again, but don't rush to put them back in until you see consistent positive and relaxed behaviour. You are definitely not a failure! Bonding is stressful and time consuming but so worth it when you get there! X

 

[pig in the city]

Well lying down near each other, eating hay peacefully, ignoring each other instead of interacting all the time, that kind of thing? I think you will know when they are relaxed xx

 

[VickiA]

Just catching up after a hard day at work. I've had more than my fair share of tense bondings @oxtinamona . I've had failed bondings, too. My Mollie was like your sow - fear aggressive - but she was much worse and went for full blown fights with the piggies she was introduced to.
When she finally met her current cage mate Mabel (who was a baby at the time) it was such a relief as she all but ignored her. Relaxed behaviour is just as @pig in the city says - it's the lack of interacting all the time that's the key. So, for example when your boy goes to the hay it would be her not following him and watching his every move, or her not jumping up and following him every time he moves.
The bonding process can take a while and requires strong nerves at times. She has to learn that he is nothing to be afraid of. He's quite a diplomat from what I saw in the vids, so this could still work.

 

[oxtinamona]

Well lying down near each other, eating hay peacefully, ignoring each other instead of interacting all the time, that kind of thing? I think you will know when they are relaxed xx

I do know when she's relaxed and I thought she was totally relaxed around him until they started kicking off again yesterday and had a squabble and obviously some kind of an 'interaction' Monday night as I found the fur
Chunks in the morning. I just don't trust myself. She seems relaxed to me most times, but then yesterday she was mean to Presley so that's why I'm not trusting myself anymore

 

[oxtinamona]

Yes @VickiA I think he's extremely clever in how he approaches her.
From what other rescue told is when first 3 bondings failed (that was approx 2 months ago) she was tolerating the new boars until their mounting became excessive and then she became aggressive - through fear I gather. She hated the sow they tried mixing her with straight away.
Although Presley did try to mount her and succeeded few times he was never insisting on it and backed out when she protested and perhaps that's why she hasn't bitten his head of yet
It's almost like he knows she scared behind this facade of bravery and is very gentle.

Just catching up after a hard day at work. I've had more than my fair share of tense bondings @oxtinamona . I've had failed bondings, too. My Mollie was like your sow - fear aggressive - but she was much worse and went for full blown fights with the piggies she was introduced to.
When she finally met her current cage mate Mabel (who was a baby at the time) it was such a relief as she all but ignored her. Relaxed behaviour is just as @pig in the city says - it's the lack of interacting all the time that's the key. So, for example when your boy goes to the hay it would be her not following him and watching his every move, or her not jumping up and following him every time he moves.
The bonding process can take a while and requires strong nerves at times. She has to learn that he is nothing to be afraid of. He's quite a diplomat from what I saw in the vids, so this could still work.

 

[Wiebke]

You spot relaxation in the interaction when you see it. Your lady's body language is rather tense at the moment. She should be less pushy, getting on with her own stuff and not being in your boy's face all the time.

 

[oxtinamona]

Here's a little Compilation of their afternoon, when I was preparing dinner. Excuse my poor filming skills - shaky hands

To me she seems relaxed...but again I am biased x

 

[VickiA]

Looking much less stressed and more relaxed.

 

[pig in the city]

Its looking very promising. Give them a few days and hopefully it will be fine when they go back in the cage x

 

[oxtinamona]

Looking much less stressed and more relaxed.

It would appear so, wouldn't it... Perhaps the idea of swapping cage is just the cure. I suppose later in time nothing stops us from swapping the couples every 6 months now a new cage? Unless that can cause their bonds to suffer ? See? I know nothing

 

[Wiebke]

I agree - she's definitely on the way to settle down. No aggression when Presley is trying to have a little sniff. Just give her time to find her feet. Be patient and you will get there! When you move them to the cage eventually, but not yet. Move them with the bedding from the bonding pen for a day or two, so the cage is smeeling "right" and familiar. That should additionally help to bolster the stress of the move.

 

[Wiebke]

It would appear so, wouldn't it... Perhaps the idea of swapping cage is just the cure. I suppose later in time nothing stops us fork swapping the couples every 6 months now a new cage? Unless that can cause their bonds to suffer ? See? I know nothing

Once the bond is well established, you can swap cages and pens without problems. I am doing it with my groups as necessary, depending on what happens and what is the most efficient layout at the time.

 

[oxtinamona]

Once the bond is well established, you can swap cages and pens without problems. I am doing it with my groups as necessary, depending on what happens and what is the most efficient layout at the time.

I was thinking about Presley and Biscuit a lot and I'm now worried what will happen if she will actually be the dominant an then will turn into a bully? I read somewhere that bullied become bullies and now I'm freaking out as don't want that to happen to lovely Presley

 

[VickiA]

Don't worry about ifs and buts and maybes. Focus on the here and now.
My Mrs Fudge was a right cow. She was bigger than Mr Ted in every way. He, like your Presley, was a diplomat who let her be boss most of the time, but stood his ground when it mattered. They got on like an old married couple and he was devastated when she died.
In every pairing there has to be a dominant piggy. In a male / female bond there is less likely to be a bully (but not impossible). Just take each day as it comes.

 

[oxtinamona]

I'll try not to worry and believe me, if I owned a house and had a garden I wouldn't. I could accommodate more pigs and I would for sure but we have no room for another cage. Yes we could separate one cage with grids should worst happen, but if Biscuit cannot get on with other pigaroos permanently I don't feel it would be fair on Presley to have him live alone, if that makes sense. Yup, I'm a worrier, as I don't have much luck with many things in life. I will try to focus on now and action things accordingly - if need be x

QUOTE="VickiA, post: 1890010, member: 114150"]Don't worry about ifs and buts and maybes. Focus on the here and now.
My Mrs Fudge was a right cow. She was bigger than Mr Ted in every way. He, like your Presley, was a diplomat who let her be boss most of the time, but stood his ground when it mattered. They got on like an old married couple and he was devastated when she died.
In every pairing there has to be a dominant piggy. In a male / female bond there is less likely to be a bully (but not impossible). Just take each day as it comes.[/QUOTE]

 

[pig in the city]

Once the bond is well established, you can swap cages and pens without problems. I am doing it with my groups as necessary, depending on what happens and what is the most efficient layout at the time.

Yes, l am always having to rearrange things as piggies come and go and cages need replacing. All part of the fun of rescue!