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6 year Old Pig with health issues

Devout_Haruhiist

Devout_Haruhiist

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Hi all,

This is my first time posting in this forum but want to get as many good opinions from other guinea pig owners as possible. My 6 year old guinea pig, Margaret, started having pain while urinating and blood about a month ago (as well as losing some weight). I took her to the vet thinking it was a stone or UTI. The vet did an ultrasound and multiple xray angles. He ruled out a stone and based on what he saw in the bladder ultrasound and the blood in urine thought it was a UTI (she's had a few over her lifetime). So we started treating her for 2 weeks on antibiotics. At first (the first few days) I saw a slight improvement but then it just kind of stayed the same.

2 weeks into the antibiotic she still had blood in her urine most of the time, still was straining and having pain peeing (she has also been on a light dose of metacam for this). Vet decided to keep her on the antibiotic a few days longer since it seemed like the blood was maybe clearing up (instead of all of the time it was most of the time). This weekend was the end of that extra period of antibiotics and over the last few days I've also noticed her weight slowly creep down again. She is still excited about veggies and generally eating, but I think slightly less.

I spoke to the vet on the phone again today and will be bringing her in Weds, which was the earliest I can get in. He mentioned since it seems it wasn't a UTI it could be a uterine infection like pyometra. After reading about that it does seem like it could be. I also read the only treatment is spaying which I'm nervous about given her age. I am wondering if anyone else has experience with these types of symptoms/diagnosis and/or spaying an older piggie. I've also heard with pyometra things can decline quickly so I'm worried about her, even though she has been semi-stable (still the same symptoms but just not getting worse) the last 2 weeks.

Thank you.
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
Hi all,

This is my first time posting in this forum but want to get as many good opinions from other guinea pig owners as possible. My 6 year old guinea pig, Margaret, started having pain while urinating and blood about a month ago (as well as losing some weight). I took her to the vet thinking it was a stone or UTI. The vet did an ultrasound and multiple xray angles. He ruled out a stone and based on what he saw in the bladder ultrasound and the blood in urine thought it was a UTI (she's had a few over her lifetime). So we started treating her for 2 weeks on antibiotics. At first (the first few days) I saw a slight improvement but then it just kind of stayed the same.

2 weeks into the antibiotic she still had blood in her urine most of the time, still was straining and having pain peeing (she has also been on a light dose of metacam for this). Vet decided to keep her on the antibiotic a few days longer since it seemed like the blood was maybe clearing up (instead of all of the time it was most of the time). This weekend was the end of that extra period of antibiotics and over the last few days I've also noticed her weight slowly creep down again. She is still excited about veggies and generally eating, but I think slightly less.

I spoke to the vet on the phone again today and will be bringing her in Weds, which was the earliest I can get in. He mentioned since it seems it wasn't a UTI it could be a uterine infection like pyometra. After reading about that it does seem like it could be. I also read the only treatment is spaying which I'm nervous about given her age. I am wondering if anyone else has experience with these types of symptoms/diagnosis and/or spaying an older piggie. I've also heard with pyometra things can decline quickly so I'm worried about her, even though she has been semi-stable (still the same symptoms but just not getting worse) the last 2 weeks.

Thank you.
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Hi and welcome

Pyometra in the early stages should have actually reacted to an antibiotic. It is only fatal in the latter stages. Are her genitalia swollen?

There is another sadly increasingle common health issue that is not well known outside vet circles that see plenty of guinea pigs: sterile interstitial cystitis (or sterile IC). It is very similar to feline sterile cystitis (FSC), and treatment is basically the same (which may help your vet to relate to). 'Sterile' means that it is not bacterial and that any bacterial count will be on the low side (there are usually some faecal bacteria in the urinary tract, but not enough to cause an infection) but the symptoms with the phorphyrine-red coloured pees, blood in the urine and squeaking when peeing and pooing are the same as a bacterial urine infection cause by faecal bacteria (UTI) or a bacterial cystititis (can happen in the wake of bladder stone or sludge trauma to the bladder).

Because it is non-bacterial, sterile IC doesn't react to antibiotics or can only be temporarily suppressed. It needs therefore to be managed instead of cured.
Key is glucosamine (which is classed as a food supplement) to replenish the natural glucosamine coating of the walls of the urinary tract that prevent the highly corrosive urine from coming into very painful contact with raw tissue. It is this that is causing the squeaking. Sterile IC can range from the mild to the very strong; in the latter case, recent research has shown that cartrofen can help; in the first oral glucosamine in the form of a cat bladder supplement like cystease or a comparable brand will do. We recommend capsules for ease of dosage and application compared to having to crush a pill and then work out the correct dosage.
An analgesic (like a meloxicam-based-brand) will also help; the dosage of the latter is usually higher than most general vets would think possible; ask for dog metacam as otherwise you will have to ask for a much more expensive 10 ml bottle of cat strength metacam (three times weaker) every few days - you can easily go up to 1 ml twice daily in a flare in a piggy just below one kilo during the initial treatment and at the start of a flare.

Once you have got it under control, which can take a few weeks, you will see flare-up every few weeks (hence the interstitial = recurring at regular intervals). Once under control, you establish a maintenance dosage of glucosamine and metacam and then how high you can possible go for some days to get on top of a flare quickly.

Here is some more more information on sterile IC: Guinea Lynx :: A Medical and Care Guide for Your Guinea Pig
Diet recommendations: Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets (see chapter on special diets)

Please show your vet this post and see whether it may be worth to pursue this avenue further. We see people at the end of their wits asking about 'untreatable' UTI or related problems on a weekly or several times weekly basis on this forum; just to give you an idea.

The good news is that mild to medium sterile IC is not a killing or life-shortening disease. Just a nuisance that may eventually go away on its own if you are lucky - but that is rather a matter of many months or several years.

I hope that this will help you.
 
Thanks for the detailed reply! I had heard of IC before in passing but this thorough information you gave makes me think it could definitely be related. Do you know how this might be diagnosed versus, say, pyometra? My fear is that without a solid diagnosis I won't be able to make a good decision on whether to spay (if it's uterine) or not (if it's IC).

I have not noticed genital swelling but I have to take a closer look. I will definitely bring this info the vet Weds though.

I have been giving her .2 mL of the dog metacam twice a day, which I think is 0.5mg/mL concentration, so this I think is .2 mg of metacam a day (for a ~1kg piggie). Not sure if maybe I should up that? She definitely has had on and off days as far as discomfort (though always pain when going to the bathroom).
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
Thanks for the detailed reply! I had heard of IC before in passing but this thorough information you gave makes me think it could definitely be related. Do you know how this might be diagnosed versus, say, pyometra? My fear is that without a solid diagnosis I won't be able to make a good decision on whether to spay (if it's uterine) or not (if it's IC).

I have not noticed genital swelling but I have to take a closer look. I will definitely bring this info the vet Weds though.

I have been giving her .2 mL of the dog metacam twice a day, which I think is 0.5mg/mL concentration, so this I think is .2 mg of metacam a day (for a ~1kg piggie). Not sure if maybe I should up that? She definitely has had on and off days as far as discomfort (though always pain when going to the bathroom).
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Genital swelling is very typical for the later stages of pyometra (infection of womb lining, in previous ages known as 'childbed fever' in new human mothers) but crucially it DOES react to and can be cured by antibiotics quite easily in the early stages. Squeaking when peeing is not the first symptom that you connect with pyometra, nor is porphyrine coloured red urine; you will rather see some strong stale smelling clear fluid (that can look like very smelly clear urine).

Sterile IC is usually diagnosed by default after all the other urinary tract problems have been exlcuded, antibiotics have not worked but symptoms continue. Characteristic is the absence or a very low count of bacteria in the urine but the presence of some blood in the urine.
You can find more information in the links in my first post.
 
That is good to know. Well, she is going to the vet tomorrow morning and I will bring a printout of all this IC info from this thread and the other stuff. I hope that we will at least be able to figure out if it's a uterine issue or IC. There has been some smelly fluid (sometimes clear, sometimes not) that I just thought was foul smelling urine from a UTI but could be the uterine discharge, not sure.

Also, unrelated but I learned about guinea pig magazine from your signature! What a nice publication!
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
That is good to know. Well, she is going to the vet tomorrow morning and I will bring a printout of all this IC info from this thread and the other stuff. I hope that we will at least be able to figure out if it's a uterine issue or IC. There has been some smelly fluid (sometimes clear, sometimes not) that I just thought was foul smelling urine from a UTI but could be the uterine discharge, not sure.
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Very smelly urine or fluid is an indication of infection in either the urinary and the respiratory tract; so continued antibiotic treatment would be indicated.

All the best in working it out. I can only give you the background information but of course I can't tell you what you are dealing with.
 
Went to the vet today. From the new imaging he took there is definitely bladder inflammation, blood in there, etc. So he is leaning much more towards a bladder issue over uterine. He took a sterile culture to send off for a culture and sensitivity test. It seems like if that comes back with something we'll have to figure out how to treat that, if not probably IC. Will also continue on metacam.

A bit worried that I have to wait for the culture test. Yesterday she definitely seemed to take a bit of a decline but she has rallied a bit this morning and is eating more hay (even after getting done with the vet, was eating it in the car and in her cage when she got back).
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
Went to the vet today. From the new imaging he took there is definitely bladder inflammation, blood in there, etc. So he is leaning much more towards a bladder issue over uterine. He took a sterile culture to send off for a culture and sensitivity test. It seems like if that comes back with something we'll have to figure out how to treat that, if not probably IC. Will also continue on metacam.

A bit worried that I have to wait for the culture test. Yesterday she definitely seemed to take a bit of a decline but she has rallied a bit this morning and is eating more hay (even after getting done with the vet, was eating it in the car and in her cage when she got back).
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All the best - bladder issues are generally much better news than reproductive tract ones. Fingers crossed that is something that can be sorted fairly straiight forward. Please continue on the metacam as your girl in pain.
 
I will say I am a little on the fence about whether she is getting enough food and at what point I should consider syringe feeding. Today she definitely ate more hay on her own which was good, but suddenly she is not really into her pellets (which she doesn't get many of to reduce calcium but normally inhales whatever I give her). Still interested in her veggies (which I sprinkle Critical Care on) and her daily vitamin C wafer.
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
I will say I am a little on the fence about whether she is getting enough food and at what point I should consider syringe feeding. Today she definitely ate more hay on her own which was good, but suddenly she is not really into her pellets (which she doesn't get many of to reduce calcium but normally inhales whatever I give her). Still interested in her veggies (which I sprinkle Critical Care on) and her daily vitamin C wafer.
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Hi

Please weigh her daily at the same time on your kitchen scales. Just watching her eat is not good enough. You will know when she is starting to lose weight again.

Here are our weight loss guidelines, which include when and in which way to tep in with syringe feeding support:
- 30g / 1 oz: Normal daily weight swing
Any weight gain or loss within this band does not count because the difference between a full bladder and a full gut and an empty bladder and gut can be up to 40g and because the weight is swinging in this bandwidth throughout the day.
- 50g / 2 oz: Go on alert!
Switch to weighing daily at the same time and book a vet appointment if the weight loss continues. See a vet within 24 hours if a guinea pig is losing this amount within 24 hours (i.e. 'promptly') and step in with syringe feeding top up. If the weight loss is much slower but steady, see a vet during regular opening hours within a week, ideally as soon as you can get an appointment during regular opening hours.
- 100g / 3 oz: You need to see a vet as an emergency if the weight loss has happened within in 1-2 days!
If your guinea pig has lost 100g within 24 hours, it has not eaten or drunk at all during this time and is in acute danger of dying. See a vet or emergency service at any time of the day or night ASAP!
Step in with syringe feeding and watering if your guinea pig can still swallow and process food. Never simply empty a syringe full into the mouth of a severely ill guinea pig!


Here is the link to our brand-new updated syringe feeding guide with plenty of practical tips and advice: All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

I hope that this helps you?
 
Thanks! I will check out that new guide on feeding.

Yeah I have been weighing every morning for the last 3-4 weeks since this started. Never saw a daily drop less than 30g but over those weeks it has steadily meandered downward. Right now she is sitting around ~900g but was about 960 3-4 weeks ago. Sometimes up, sometimes down, but generally trending down, if slowly. So while there aren't large single drops I am a bit concerned about the small declines and whether I should supplement for that.
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
Thanks! I will check out that new guide on feeding.

Yeah I have been weighing every morning for the last 3-4 weeks since this started. Never saw a daily drop less than 30g but over those weeks it has steadily meandered downward. Right now she is sitting around ~900g but was about 960 3-4 weeks ago. Sometimes up, sometimes down, but generally trending down, if slowly. So while there aren't large single drops I am a bit concerned about the small declines and whether I should supplement for that.
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As the drop is now over 50g, I would step in with some sort of extra feed like oats or syringe feed in a bowl - something she can eat on her own.
 
Just had her out for a bit. She munched some hay and had her Vitamin C tablet. I made some Critical Care up with water and presented her with the "mash." She was not interested in that (and also continues to not be interested in her pellets). I guess I might need to skip directly to syringe-feeding?

Definitely getting anxious as I thought she was somewhat doing well after her vet appointment and with the metacam.
 
She kind of answered the question for me-- ended up continuing to lose weight so I had a light syringe feeding session last night to practice but today probably have to go on full-on partial syringe feeding per the guide. She is still mostly ignoring her pellets, on and off eating hay, and eating her veggies but I will probably aim for a few critical care feeding sessions throughout today to supplement.
 
Vet got back to me today but it turns out they needed to take a second culture. First one was apparently not sterile enough or conclusive. But it does appear it is definitely an infection of some kind in the bladder, just not sure what to treat with yet. She got the second culture done today so hopefully results soon. Still all the same symptoms-- blood in some/most pees, pain while peeing (still on metacam), lot of sludge [sometimes gritty], lack of full appetite.

Weight continued to drop so I started supplementing with critical care syringe feeding Thursday. I am getting better at getting more in at each feeding but probably still failing to fully hit the target amount. She is still eating some hay on her own, eating her veggies, and rarely eating some pellets. Also still drinking normally, but weight has still been low. I feel like I have it somewhat stable around 835-840 since Thursday. I do think her poops look small though which is worrying, so I will have to keep stepping up the CC feeding. She is fairly resistant to all three flavors of Critical Care and won't take it off a spoon, so it's been syringe only for that.
 
Hey there :) Sorry you are dealing with this. Been there. I know others have mentioned IC. Has the vet OKd gkucosamine? Usually it's considered a suppliment and ok to give. It helps with the bladder irritation.

One of my pigs was on antibiotics for almost a year for what turned to be IC related. The antibiotics also had an anti inflammatory property and that's why they helped.

Best of luck figuring it out 💖
 
Thanks! The vet did mention glucosamine (after I mentioned the content from this thread and IC) but I think was waiting to rule out an outright infection with this culture. It's unfortunately just taking longer than anticipated I think. I just ordered some though just in case.
 
Also I realized this morning I am pretty sure I am underdosing with her metacam. Before her most recent vet visit, I was giving her .2mL twice a day of the 0.5mg concentration. Not sure how much it helped but it seemed to do something. The vet gave me a new bottle, since I'd run out, of the 1.5mg concentration (Meloxidyl) which came with a special syringe (for dogs) measured out in pounds from 1-14. So he said 2-3# of that daily. So I was giving usually 2#, sometimes splitting it.

But today I was curious about it and messed with exchanging liquids between that syringe and a normal 1mL one and found that the 3# mark is roughly only 0.1mL in the normal syringe. Now of course the concentration is higher but even taking this into account, it would be less metacam than before. When she was on the 0.5 concentration with 2 x 0.2mL daily it equated to .2mg total of metacam per day. But with this, even at the 3# mark (and I have been using the 2# mark), this would be only .15mg per day and with the 2# mark only .1mg per day. So I in effect halved her dosage and I wonder if this is bothering her and contributing to the lack of appetite.

Not sure if anyone has experience with these weird syringes that come with Meloxidyl.
 
Ok, big update for today.

Her weight has continued to decline but with the syringe feeding, which I am getting better at, and the Oat hay it has slowed slightly. Was 813g this morning. Her behavior seems a little better for it too, but still straining, etc.

The results from her culture came back and are apparently fairly serious. The vet said she has corynebacterium renale in there, which apparently is a very serious bacterium even for humans. There isn't a very clear course of treatment for guinea pigs and the testing did not directly reveal a drug that would work. Apparently that bacterium has evolved to be quite resistant. The current recommended course of treatment is two antibiotics. One is going back on the Albon (with is the trimethone sulfate type) but a slightly larger dose once a day. The other is a drug called "Orbax" which I have not heard of but is apparently related to Baytril.

He said without treatment it will almost certainly be fatal (and often is for humans). But I am nervous about putting two antibiotics in her for long periods.

Anyone else have experience with this bacteria or antibiotics?
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
Not sure if anyone has experience with these weird syringes that come with Meloxidyl.
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The syringe we get with 1.5mg/ml Metacam is in kgs with a picture of a dog on. It goes from 0 to 35! George is 5 and 1.35 kilo. He has a "4kg" dog dose twice a day and I reckon this is about 0.3ish ml each time. He has arthritis and so will have this for the rest of his life. At first he was on "8kg" once a day but seems happier with the split. The vet talked about the amount they get in 24 hours so from her point of view 1x8 or 2x4 doesn't matter. He's got scope to go quite a bit higher if his arthritis worsens but we've started him on glucosamine (oxbow joint support lozenges) and he's improved a lot on that. I've had pigs on higher doses of metacam in the shorter term with no problems at all... it's just keeping George healthy over what will hopefully be a very long life. He likes the taste and its been fine for all my piggies. (NB: One of my sows has also been on those lozenges as she sometimes has gritty pee I've just let her go for it - its all glucosamine. But it does take a few weeks to 'work').

I've not had two antibiotics at once but I have had a piggy prescribed Baytril at what seemed a seriously high dose for 5 days compared to what we've had before. I was worried about that pig but there were no ill effects. Another was prescribed a lower (but still decent) dose for weeks and was fine. Some pigs seem to be sensitive to it and it puts them off eating but I've had no issues. We've also had one called Septrin long term - again we were OK. It sounds like your vet is trying to hit this both barrels... antibiotics can target different bits of bacteria but they're sometimes not 100% effective. So by targeting 2 different bits one AB can clear up any that another AB leaves behind. I don't know this bacteria but it sounds serious. Perhaps you can ask advice about the best way of giving the ABs - maybe not both at the same time but spreading out through the day... maybe 1/2 way through a syringe feed so they don't hit the gut 'undiluted'... using probiotics in feeds between the doses etc. Antibiotics can certainly mess up some pig's guts more than others but pain will stop any pig eating what they need to - and maybe stop them all together - so although you'll have a balancing act I think you don't really have a choice other than to try what the vet is advising.

That's all I can offer I'm afraid, but I hope it goes well for her x
 
Thanks for the reply. I hope that George continues to do well :).

Regarding the ABs. Yeah it's a tough balance. My pig Margaret did have a bad reaction once to Baytril (which this Orbax is apparently related to) but it might have been a fairly high dose. And back then I did not know about probiotics. My vet changed my prescription just slightly from what I wrote above and replaced the Albon with Bactrim (which is similar).

It looks like the Bactrim is a larger dose 2x a day (and I know that one is usually fairly well tolerated) and the Orbax just once, so yeah to your point I might have to figure the best way to spread them out and combine with feedings, etc.
 
So sorry to hear the news. No experience with multiple antibiotics, but just long term (Smz TMP for almost a year, 6-8 weeks at a time with only 2-3 weeks in between till symptoms returned). She handled it well and didn't have any bathroom issues related to it.

Does she have a cage mate? Sorry if I missed that detail. Hopefully she has access to another pig's poop for the probiotics, in case the antibiotics mess up her system. There's benebac probiotic too.
 
Thanks for the reply! Yeah I am very nervous about having her on two antibiotics :(. But she is slowly continuing to decline and has not been able to kick this infection for quite awhile now (she was already on a prior antibiotic, Albon, for 3 weeks in Feb).

I have some Bene Bac and I do have two other pigs who live in a cage next to hers. So I am hoping that can mitigate it. Definitely nervous about starting this treatment though, but I have no choice.
 
Well she had her first full day of the Bactrim [vet changed from Albon to Bactrim last minute] and Orbax yesterday. No change in her symptoms yet (still straining and peeing some pink and grit) and still only eating lightly (and getting supplemented with syringe food-- though I guess not enough since her weight is still decreasing day by day :( ).

I am a little worried about the AB effect on her gut too. This morning I found plenty of poops from overnight but today I am noticing fewer and they are a bit on the small side. Not sure at what point I have to figure out which ABs to keep her on versus the side effects. I know Orbax is related to Baytril and she has had some gut issues with Baytril in the past (though it was a much larger dose). No way of getting in touch with my vet until Monday, sadly. Right now I am just slightly delaying the Orbax dose for today until I get more poop samples to look at. I should note I am also giving her probiotics a few times a day (at times separate from the ABs) using BeneBac.
 
I am also very concerned, despite reading the guide multiple times, that I am not getting enough syringe food into her per day.

When I started late last week, I was a bit more on the forceful side since she was really turning her nose up at the Critical Care formula. But a few days later I tried mixing in just a tiny bit of baby food and tiny baby oats (fine grind) and she would actually take the syringe of her own volition. So I was happy to see that. Though she would only get a few mL like that before turning away again. I am not sure where the line is where I should be more direct versus going by how much she seems to want. And sadly today even with my "recipe" she is not really going for the syringe. I know the feeding guide says something like 15 mL per session on average but I feel like in order to do that I would have to be quite forceful-- and I'm not sure where that line is.

I should mention she is still eating some timothy and oat hay on her own, and still excited for/eats her veggies. Just has completely stopped eating pellets (maybe one or two here and there) and is not eating enough hay.
 
Quick update. She is continuing on her antibiotics (no improvement to her urinary issues yet but it's only been 2 days or so) but I am starting to get more and more concerned about her gut. Not sure how much of it is the ABs versus just her reduced appetite. Continuing to find only very small poos today (and not a lot of them). I did get a solid syringe feeding in last night around 1 AM and then another this morning and she ate most of her morning greens (but not all-- might've been full from the syringe food). Not sure if the poops will pick up once that stuff from last night/this morning gets through her system. I don't have any Reglan at home and not sure how I would get it with the vets out until Monday. I have some simethicone gas drops, not sure if I should give that as a precaution or not in case there is gas.

Other than just syringe feeding her the critical care (for the fiber) more frequently and water-- is there anything else I can do? Honestly this is becoming a bigger concern than her urine at the moment.
 
Are you weighing her every day? If not, please do start to do so. This is the only way to know you are getting enough syringe feed into her in each 24 hour period. If she loses weight at each check, then she needs to be fed more often.
Poop output is not a reliable indicator as it is delayed to the food intake so doesn’t give you real time information
 
I have been weighing her multiple times a day, yes, with her morning weight being kind of the "official" one. She seemed to be vaguely holding weight the last 2 days (still at an all-time recent low). Hoping then that the poo output improves given she got a heartier feeding yesterday evening and in the early morning today.

She did make some poops while I had her in a holding area while cleaning her cage that did not look great. They were not necessarily soft per-se, but tiny (kind of underdeveloped looking). I put a photo here with a US Quarter for reference

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gBR-o_1Tq27GwpZwEc146zoduuFhBtCm/view?usp=sharing

As a side note btw, I saw you have a "Forum Donator" tag...is there somewhere I can go to donate/support the forum? Happy to have found this great forum.
 
Devout_Haruhiist said:
As a side note btw, I saw you have a "Forum Donator" tag...is there somewhere I can go to donate/support the forum? Happy to have found this great forum.
Click to expand...

Once a year, admins open up donations - I believe the next window is in a few months.

On the thread subject, I'm sorry you're still struggling with this. But from what I read you're doing everything you can, thinking of you both :hug:
 
I couldn't get 15ml into a pig without her being very uncomfortable. She could just about do 12ml but would prefer to stop at about 8ml so it was always a compromise. She wasn't eating anything else at all and wasn't eating on her own so it was just perseverance, but 15ml was definitely too much in one go.

If you stop or delay antibiotics that are tackling the infection it will come back and you won't have any alternative other than to start again. I'm really sorry you are struggling. The poops are small but not bad and still nice and moist. The poops can run 2 days behind input and my main concern was always that there was something there to show me that the guts were still functioning. If you make sure she's got pellet mush in her cage at all times as well as tempting bits and bobs she might surprise you by eating it herself... it all helps x
 
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