Keeping lots of guinea pigs?

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sparky7

Hello All
This is my first post here, so here goes!
We currently have 5 guineas: 1 6-year old boar, 2 1-year old boys and 2 1-year old girls.
I am considering building a large run in the garden, around 30 feet x 8 feet, and ideally we would like to have 15-20 guineas in there.
So we have lots of questions!
  • under what circumstances can we have a mix of males and females?
  • do we need to worry about females becoming pregnant too young or too old?
  • I am planning for the run to be mainly grassed, with a wire mesh roof, and with 3 or 4 small hutches within it? Should I also put in some form of heating for the winter (this is England!)?
  • Am I (or rather my daughters - this is their project really!) going to have to clean the run of all the poo, like we currently do for the hutches. Or, if we get the numbers right, will the poo just rot and disipate before it becomes too unhealthy
  • What else do we need to be thinking about?!?
Hope someone out there can help. We are pretty keen on this project, but I need to reassure myself that it is viable.
Many thanks
Les
 
Hi and welcome to the forum. Your project sounds intriguing and I am sure you will get lots of replies. OK for what it's worth these are my thoughts.

Under what circumstances can we have a mix of males and females? One male and a number of females. More than one boy and you are very likely to have fights as the boys try to gain dominance.

Do we need to worry about females becoming pregnant too young or too old? If the piggies are running freely together then you obviously won't have any control over pregnancies so yes, you will run into the problem of some pigs being too young and some being too old. Why do you want them to be able to breed? Before very long you will be over run with pigs. Why not take in a neutered boar and let him run with a number of girlies without the risk of pregnancy.

I am planning for the run to be mainly grassed, with a wire mesh roof, and with 3 or 4 small hutches within it? Should I also put in some form of heating for the winter (this is England!)? If the hutches are to be placed directly on the grass i.e. with no gap under them then you will find that the hutches become damp - they really need to be raised a little off the ground, you can always put a little ramp up to the hutch to allow the pigs access. My main worry would be foxes - they are very good at digging under runs and you will need to ensure that you use fox proof wire. I usually move my piggies into the shed during the winter months, so I wouldn't personally recommend leaving them out all year round.

Am I (or rather my daughters - this is their project really!) going to have to clean the run of all the poo, like we currently do for the hutches. Or, if we get the numbers right, will the poo just rot and dissipate before it becomes too unhealthy. Not sure on this one, but if my 7 that share a run are anything to go by the poo will pile up very quickly. Unless you plan to move the run around frequently you may also find that the grass soon turns into mud! You will obviously still have to clean out the hutches regularly otherwise they will very quickly become a health hazard.

Where do you plan of getting your guineas from? Why not consider offering a home to a neutered boar and some girlies from a rescue. Let us know what you decide.
 
I agree with caviesgalore. You couldnt viably have more than one boar in with however many sows you have room/time/money for! He would have to be neutered or you will end up with all sorts of problems, doesnt bear thinking about really...numbers will go out of control, inbreeding, back to back breeding resulting in poorly sows, even death.
The run would have to be very secure...foxes, cats etc and in winter you will have to have insuating hutch covers and water bottle covers, so a large heated shed would be preferable.
Even in good conditions, if the run is one one area, the grass will become of poor quality after a time and will be muddy with rain, cold and hard with frost etc...guineas dont do well in extremes of temperature. What is a comfortable temperature for us is the same for them.
 
One neutered boar to a sow or group of sows. Do not have more than one boar living with any sows, no matter the number as they will fight like hell over them.

If you insist on having 15, you will need to start from scratch and buy a boar (neuter, or lots of boars come from a rescue already neutered) and 12 sows (then your two sows) please make sure you check sexes and just have the one boar living with ladies....

Me personally, a better idea would be to get both the boars you already have neutered, and get them 3 lady friends each (then your two) and have two big groups of 5

You should not just leave guineas around to get pregnant, that is awful, and yes they can get pregnant too young and too old which could cause them serious problems, like ive said if you want a mix 1 neutered boar to a group of sows is the best suggestion.

Rescues would probably have a bonded sow and neutered boar, you could rehome one of these and then just add sows to the groups.

Please keep in mind how much it will cost, vets bills, bringing them in in the winter, or how you would you make sure they arent too hot/cold, and if you get a disease, your whole herd could get it....

You would also need the room and extra cages to seperate any piggies if they fell ill or fell out!

Good luck O0
 
Hi Les,

Sounds an interesting idea. I'm sure more knowledgable people will answer your questions. One thing though, do you have enough hands on deck for grooming and petting. I've got 5 and it takes me 2 and a half hours a day for this kind of thing so taking on more would mean everyone would have to chip in.

Pigs are like lions, only one male in a pack so you couldn't have more than one.

Personally I wouldn't breed, there are enough Guineas in this world and rescues need support. Why not adopt some that way?

Good luck with it, there is loads to weigh up but it does sound like it could be a great thing to do!

Louise
x
 
Thanks for all your replies.

OK - I think I'm getting the picture!

So it's either all females, or possibly with 1 (or 2?) neutered males. I can't help wondering though how big a community has to be for the problems of inbreeding etc to be negated: presumably bigger than I have room for?

Regarding the run, this will be permanent - i.e. not moveable. I had anticipated having to use fox-proof netting (going underground below the fence walls, and having to raise the hutches off the ground a few inches. As for the grass, perhaps I should restrict the number of guineas to whatever a 30 x 8 foot run can sustain (anyone have any info on that?).

Others may disagree, but I'm guessing that if we did manage to have 15 or so guineas they would get all the socialising they need from eachother - without the need for petting and grooming (although my daughters will do their best!). I guess I see the whole setup more as a semi-wild community than as completely domesticated pets: what do others think about this?

Thanks again for all the advice.
Cheers
Les
 
If you have a run with 15 piggies, within a few weeks it would probably be mush.

And its 1 neutered boar to a group of sows - not 2.

If you have an unneutered boar in with females for one hour, he will mate every single one of them, whether they are his sisters, daughters, mothers, that doesnt matter.
Each sow could have upto 6 babies, you do the maths. And that would be totally totally stupid and irresponsible for the owner to do!

The babies could die, be deformed, and back to back breeding could kill the sows, they can get pregnant from 4 weeks of age, and get pregnant again just an hour after giving birth, which is very very dangerous. Not to mention the fact that they are so young their bodies wouldnt be able to carry a baby.

On top of that, the older the sow is, the harder it will be for her to give birth as the pelvis looses elasticity and she could die or need a c section, you shouldnt even consider breeding after 7-8 months old.

If you are hoping to make money from breeding, it isnt going to happen, its impossible to make a profit if you are feeding and caring to the guineas properly.

Yes to a certain degree they can be left for eachothers companies, but they still need to be groomed at least once a week (once every 2 days if its a longhaired) and will need to be cleaned out and disinfected once every 2 days id say, just from the amount of guineas.

Guineas are naturally nervous animals, and need to be handled regularly, and not just left to it, as if a sudden noise happens, or they get scared, you could end up dieing of shock.

It is a nice idea, but I really feel you need to do some more reading on the basics before taking it any further (being honest). The guineas you buy are pet, and they need a stable temperature, greens 3 times a day, constant supplies of hay, to be weighed regularly (especially with a herd the size you want)

You cant say how much they will wear the grass down for sure, every guinea is different.

I think to be honest you should start small and add to the herd when you feel

For example if your herd caught mites, just a consultation is around £15, multiply that by 16 or whatever, would you be willing to pay that just to get the vet to see them?

And as a resuce I have to say, if your girls loose interest, move out, etc the responsibility of their care is with you, and as you prob know, guineas can live over 8 years!

Good luck O0
 
If it were me I'd have a 6 by 4 foot shed with a cat flap in the side for the guineas to get in and out. You could even have a cat flap each side so you could control how often the guins use each run (and preventing mush). Guineas are susceptible to the damp and won't thank you for letting them run on the wet grass and after a year like this last one would you leave them shut in hutches :) Maybe a 12 by 8 shed would be better with that number LOL!

Mice and rats are just as much a problem as foxes etc and twice as difficult to keep out (or so it seems).You can shut them up securely in a shed away from foxes but a mouse'll get in there and soon you'll be overrun.

One boar to a group of sows that get on is best. Sometimes its socialising the sows thats the problem. I think your large run is a great idea if its secure but there needs to be an option for exercise if the weather's bad (like this summers).

If you want to breed then you need to select the best sows and ask some breeders advice before you take the plunge. To be honest I wouldn't be buying breeding stock at this moment, get your set up sorted at first and decide what you really want and if its to breed then why?
 
the only help i can give is on the poop topic... my piggies stay indoors, and when they get outside they are in a run about 6x4ft, they only go out for an afternoon and i wouldnt like anymore poo to build up than does in that after noon, so it would need cleaned regularly.

i know its not common but i was able to introdue 2 sets of 2 boys together... but that was mainly because brownie was always a very dominent pig and the other boys were very submissive so he became top dog right away... the 4 live quite happily together and are fully aware of the girls, maybe i was just lucky with that...

but good luck with the run anyway, i hope it goes well
 
sparky7 said:
Regarding the run, this will be permanent - i.e. not moveable. I had anticipated having to use fox-proof netting (going underground below the fence walls, and having to raise the hutches off the ground a few inches. As for the grass, perhaps I should restrict the number of guineas to whatever a 30 x 8 foot run can sustain (anyone have any info on that?).
Click to expand...

Hi Les
I have a permanent run which is 14ft long, 11ft wide at one end tapering to 6ft. Every nice weather day we've had i've had my piggies out grazing. They'd go out in 2 groups; 6 intact boys first then the 2 neutered boys with 7 females (15 in total).
Their first outing was in May when their grass was approx 10" long, lush & green, it is now approx 4" long, sparse & in clumps ;D ;D
It doesn't take very long for the mini-mowers to get to work & mine haven't been out every day.
My piggies don't live outside in their run, they live in their hutches in a shed
Hope this helps
 
Lots more info here - many thanks to all of you.

So, our thinking so far is this:
We would at least start with restricted numbers - initially just the 5 that we currently have. Depending on their effect on the grass we would add more over the months ahead. Possibly we would do this by allowing one of our boys to mate with our 2 girls (the girls are in fact only 6 months old, not 1 year as I previously said). We may later allow the other to mate with them (obviously after a suitable period following the birth of the first litter), or we may buy some more females, all depending of course on the state of play with the run (and the grass in it). Whenever we decide not to use (or to stop using) our existing boys for breeding we would get them neutered:

Question: are there any issues about allowing 2 (or more?) neutered boys to share the same run as eachother and lots of girls?

Regarding the cold and the damp, I would run an electricity supply into the run, and use this to power some kind of heaters in the 2 or 3 hutches that will be in the run:

Question: can anyone suggest a suitable type of heater?

On the question of mice etc getting into the run, I can imagine that a small number might come and go, but is this really likely to be a problem? This takes me on to the bigger issue for us, which is that we really are trying as far as possible to establish a natural community of guineas. Such a community inevitably survives the problems of interbreeding, fighting, imperfect grazing, the cold/heat/rain, lack of grooming/washing/petting, contact with other creatures (e.g.mice), etc. Perhaps this is at the expense of the community's survival rate (in which case I would certainly want to improve on that in our 'community'), but I would be very interested in the views of those of you with more experience of keeping guineas that we have (which will be most of you!) on this matter.

Finally, without wishing to appear to be launching into this project recklessly, I think sometimes one simply has to stop asking questions and to get on with the idea in mind: rarely do we have the luxury of complete and perfect information prior to action. Our project will certainly benefit from the information and suggestions that we have received (and hopefully will continue to receive!) here, but I think we are fast approaching decision time ... and my feelings are to proceed as outlined above and in previous posts. This is not just my decision though - it needs to be unanimous amongst my wife and two daughters (10 and 12).

Thanks again for all the help.
Les
 
Firstly this is a pro-rescue forum...so talking about breeding, especially when you dont know the basics is not a good idea :)

And I'm sorry but I would encorage you to not even consider breeding. When the female is pregnant she should not be around ANY males near to the end, can you facilitate her having her own hutch...and she could get pregnant again after an hour of giving birth, which is just cruel and could cause her damage.

If you have the right 2 boars that are extremely docile and have never mated, it may be possible to have 2 neutered boars to a group of girls, but it would have to be the right boars, and is highly unlikely.

Under normal circumstances, unless you somehow found the perfect males, if you put two neutered males with a group of girls they would tear eachother apart. It would be a bloodbath, simple as.

Yes mouse droppings can spead disease among a herd of guinea pigs in a matter of days, so of course it matters.

Why do you need to breed? There are hundreds of rescues out there that you could adopt a neutered boar and a group of girls from!

I dont understand exactly what you are getting at with a 'natural community' these are NOT wild guineas, they are pets.
If they get disease from mice, they get ill and could die, if they are too hot or cold, they will get ill and could die, if you interbreed, you could end up with disfigured or dead babies, as well as the complications that could be involved in pregnancy for the mother, I'm sure you dont want your daughters to wake upto that.
 
Hello 'PerfectPiggies'

Thanks for reply.

I understand that for many (and from what you say this applies to the majority of contributors to this forum) the joy of rescuing a guinea pig is greater than that of successfully breeding one's own, but that doesn't necessarily go for all of us. Please don't misunderstand me: I would certainly take all the necessary precautions regarding separation, etc. (that's what I mean by successfully breeding), but on that basis surely it is reasonable for us to elect to breed (only as many as we would keep) instead of rescue? That said, if in fact we would struggle to manage satisfactorily any breeding activities, I'm sure we would be happy to rescue: who does one contact (in the UK) about this?

Thanks for the info on neutered males: in light of that we will not go there!

Regarding my comments about a 'natural community', while I understand that any community that we are looking after in our garden will never be entirely 'natural', I still feel that there are perhaps some aspects of the guineas' care where there is a range of perfectly acceptable standards: maybe petting and (at least for the short haired guineas) washing and grooming would be examples of this. Very obviously I would need to protect the 'community' from certain risks (like extreme temperatures, inappropriate breeding etc.), but I'm sure this is perfectly manageable without needing to commit to the 5-star luxury that would normally be afforded to a group of 4 or 5 pet guineas. I realise that I probably sound very callous in expressing this view, but I hope that some at least will understand where we are coming from and will see that we have no intention of failing to care adequately for our ... community/pets!

By the way: the jury is still out on whether or not we do proceed with this project.

Thanks again
Les
 
Hi sparky7 and welcome to the forum

I only have a few pieces of advice, if you have a large herd you must bear in mind that even if one piggy becomes ill it is very possible they all will,, i myself have had experience of this with a 21 strong herd i am now down to 6, it is a sad situation, and you must be aware of that side of things,
and also the food bill can get scary at times.
also i think the idea of 3 differnet herds of 5 is a fab idea, for health reasons, Ooh and fun to watch the different herd charactors coming through with different male leaders

also breeding guineas is actually hard work, i lost a sow once when she gave birth to a mini pig breach it killed her and all the other pigs inside her, imagine if all your sows went through that, the vet bill would be Hugh, because to have a c section is in the region of £300 and the pig may not make it,,, give it heaps of thought, but if you do go ahead i wish you good luck and the pigs good health.

them
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with breeding if you know what you are doing, have researched and can provide the right environment, but as a pro rescue forum we tend to steer away from talking about it...

In my opinion, yes you could go down the breeding road, but you would have to carefully select who to breed from. Guineas from petshops have an unclear background, so you should not breed from these, for example, as it is possible they may create a lethal mix, producing deformed, or dead babies.

If you were breeding to keep, you would have to be aware of a few things, I really dont want to be patronising, but will list a couple.

- Sows can have upto 6 babies...

- Boars and sows need to be sexed and seperated at 3-4 weeks and the males and females seperated, or there WILL be inbreeding, son to daughter, son to mum etc etc...

What would you do if, for example you ended up with 12 boars (males) from breeding from the two sows. They can only be kept in groups of 2, sometimes 3 if you are very lucky (and even then may fall out) so you would at minimum need 4 extra cages, and at maximum 12 extra cages....

This is why I say it would be easier/better/more productive to adopt from rescues where you KNOW they are female, and you are actually helping to give an animal a better life as a bonus!

I know some people with a large number of guineas have them living 'free range' in a shed, maybe thats something you would consider as a means to control the temperature?

As for rescues, people on here can help you find one. I am a rescue myself, but if you ask the question in the rescue section, I am sure lots of people can point you in the right direction O0
 
PerfectPiggies said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with breeding if you know what you are doing, have researched and can provide the right environment, but as a pro rescue forum we tend to steer away from talking about it...

In my opinion, yes you could go down the breeding road, but you would have to carefully select who to breed from. Guineas from petshops have an unclear background, so you should not breed from these, for example, as it is possible they may create a lethal mix, producing deformed, or dead babies.

If you were breeding to keep, you would have to be aware of a few things, I really dont want to be patronising, but will list a couple.

- Sows can have upto 6 babies...

- Boars and sows need to be sexed and seperated at 3-4 weeks and the males and females seperated, or there WILL be inbreeding, son to daughter, son to mum etc etc...

What would you do if, for example you ended up with 12 boars (males) from breeding from the two sows. They can only be kept in groups of 2, sometimes 3 if you are very lucky (and even then may fall out) so you would at minimum need 4 extra cages, and at maximum 12 extra cages....

This is why I say it would be easier/better/more productive to adopt from rescues where you KNOW they are female, and you are actually helping to give an animal a better life as a bonus!

I know some people with a large number of guineas have them living 'free range' in a shed, maybe thats something you would consider as a means to control the temperature?

As for rescues, people on here can help you find one. I am a rescue myself, but if you ask the question in the rescue section, I am sure lots of people can point you in the right direction O0
Click to expand...

Just a question that may sound silly or very inexperienced of me, but if your litter is still feeding from its mother will it harm the babes taking them away early when they have not stopped having their mothers milk. I have only done this with the boar babies at 4-5 weeks and when they have started doing their mating dance/ purring, when they have still been feeding but i have continued with a little carnation milk and water in a separate drinking bottle.
 
;D ;D ;D Sorry i haven't got the hang of doing this insert quote thing yet. I only meant to insert the part about seperating the babes at 3-4 weeks. 98)
 
Guinea pig babies will start picking at dry food at just a couple of hours old....

Boars are perfectly fine taken away from mum at 4 weeks, sows can stay with mum. I have had to seperate boars at 2-3 weeks in the past, and they have been fine and perfectly healthy.

I would much rather take the boars away, than the mums and sisters fall pregnant with inbred babies :) O0

To quote a certain area, just copy and paste the bit you want, then highlight it again and click quote O0
 
Thanks perfect piggies, no you definately would not allow nor want brothers and sisters mating. You wouldn't except it in the human world and its no different in my opinion in the piggie world especially all the defects it can cause.Cruel.
Ok tried the copy and paste thing but it wont highlight the copy and paste bits only undo delete and select all, but nevermind, not a big issue. O0 lol
 
To highlight click and hold it down, then move your mouse over the bit you want, then press quote O0
 
PerfectPiggies said:
To highlight click and hold it down, then move your mouse over the bit you want, then press quote O0
Click to expand...
Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh ye he a round of applause, like my mum used to say....you learn something new everyday
 
Sorry, but heaters are no good for damp grass and I understand you want free range pigs. Hence the suggestion of a shed (with a stable door and opening window) that the pigs can run in when its wet. If you're keeping as wild guins then I assume you're digging tunnels for hiding in and when it gets cold (or will they die naturally)? This is NOT a natural environment, the climate in South America is dry- not humid like ours- you cannot recreate it.

Breeding: I think you need to ask breeders about purchasing stock with a history. Dental probs are a very common problem amongst pet shop pigs and the problem is hereditary- despite people saying about 'hardy stock' from pet shops, they'll tell you they're healthy- they want your money!

You need to examine the Animal Welfare Bill too, current recommendations are likely to become law next year.

Yes they do interbreed in the wild, possibly once, then males get chased to the outer circle of sows that are not related to him. Eventually a new one comes in and defeats the Alpha boar. Hence you should know your stocks history. They can also escape in the wild- there's no fences, when they've had a crack at being top boar and feel defeat they can CHOOSE to call it day. Babies shouldn't be born on damp grass etc and they choose the season to have their litter in time with the grass etc being ready.

What will you do when you need to restrict their intake of new grass- let them get bloat- naturally? It happens in the wild.

I had a pig here that without treatment would've lost his entire leg because a 'few mice' then rats got in to the run and bit him! Several wheeks and abscesses later (not to mention the threat of loosing the leg, only natural) he was better. The difference is in the wild pigs can move, in domesticity you are responsible for them, legally now.

Sorry for the length of this I don't mean to sound harsh but you asked for advice and opinion :)
 
By the way PP, I had a sow that had 8 babies in a back to back litter. 2 in the first, 8 in the second. 6 of the 8 survived.
 
Before you even THINK about breeding go out and see how many homeless guinea pigs are in your local area. Bear in mind that for every guinea pig you "sell" you are doing one of the rescue pigs out of a home. Tell us what you know about the risks of lethal crosses and toxaemia? Do you have a guinea pig knowledgeable vet? Do you have the funds for it? Chances are you will need one even more as your colony grows. Where do your existing pigs and any future ones come from?

With regards to rescue - it's as simple as placing adverts stating you will rehome unwanted cavies. Either way, you need to have adequate facilities for quarantining any new additions - you cannot merely plonk them in with the rest. Do you have the space to house smaller groups of boars away from the main group should you need to?

Guinea pigs are not self-sustaining company wise in larger colonies; moreover they are even more work. All of them must be handled daily so that they are tame and used to handling in the event that they need to be caught quickly or examined for illness. If you don't have the time to do this daily with a large group, don't get a large group.

They cannot be outside in a run in winter. They will die from the cold, simple as that.

Sound advice from Karen and PerfectPiggies - PLEASE take their very experienced word for it!
 
karenrgpr said:
By the way PP, I had a sow that had 8 babies in a back to back litter. 2 in the first, 8 in the second. 6 of the 8 survived.
Click to expand...
Do you have piccies of the 8 bubs and did you rescue the sow ?
 
iloveanimals said:
karenrgpr said:
By the way PP, I had a sow that had 8 babies in a back to back litter. 2 in the first, 8 in the second. 6 of the 8 survived.
Click to expand...
Do you have piccies of the 8 bubs and did you rescue the sow ?
Click to expand...
Yes I do somewhere. Will try and remember to put on another post. Most of the litter and mum went to home where they were kept in a colony in a room in the house with access to outside through a catflap (into a covered run). :)
 
sparky7 said:
Question: are there any issues about allowing 2 (or more?) neutered boys to share the same run as eachother and lots of girls?
Click to expand...

I have 2 neutered boys; both live with a sow in their respective hutches. When they go out to graze in the run, both neutered boys & ALL my sows go in together but are supervised by me because 1 sow is a menace with everyone but her boar, 1 sow hates all boars & one of my neutered boars tries to intimidate the other.
I am there to watch the "goings on" & prevent any altercations which i hasten to add usually come from the 2 "head" sows. I would never leave them un-attended :)

daftscotslass said:
They cannot be outside in a run in winter. They will die from the cold, simple as that.
Click to expand...

DSL - Whilst i personally wouldn't have my piggies out in a run in the winter, there are exceptions to every rule.
My vet has a free running herd in a part of her garden, the area is in a more shaded part but her piggies are out in all weathers; snow, wind rain etc. running freely in her flowebeds, eating bark from trees.......
They have access to hutches which do not have doors on but are simply filled from bottom to top with hay where they burrow to keep warm. She says living this life her piggies are extremely healthy & muscular in phsyique. :)
 
Niki

At last!

It appears that someone (and a vet, no less) has demonstrated that keeping guineas outdoors all year is perfectly OK.
Having read all the posts in this thread I was beginning to think this really was a no-no - even though this went against my (admittedly poorly informed) intuition. Now I know that it is possible after all to do what we are contemplating.

I realise that we're not out of the woods yet, because of course the vet would not have the worry of huge vet bills! That aside, I would be very grateful for any further information on how to make such an outdoor colony work. Specifically:

  • is there really any evidence that the guineas are likely to be attacked or infected by visiting mice etc?
  • It sounds like the vet does not provide and artificial heating in the winter: is that correct?
  • Does the vet have a top cover, or roof, etc, to the area where her guineas roam?
  • Is there a minimum number that would be required for them to keep each other warm and sociable?

I will say that I am now convinced not to breed: although I know I could ensure suitable separation to avoid inappropriate mating, I obviously cannot control the sexes of the babies and the risk of lots of boys is too great. So it would be all sows (or perhaps with one neutered boar), which I would try to get from a rescue - although we've already had great difficulties contacting any such places within the north-west of England, otherwise a petshop - where I know we would need to put our name on a waiting list: the idea of large number of guineas waiting desperately for a loving home seems not to apply in these parts!

The jury's still out on whether or not we proceed with the plan - and the advice from this form is certainly being taken into account.

Thanks for everyone's help.
Les

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