• Discussions taking place within this forum are intended for the purpose of assisting you in discussing options with your vet. Any other use of advice given here is done so at your risk, is solely your responsibility and not that of this forum or its owner. Before posting it is your responsibility you abide by this Statement

IC trouble

furryfriends (TEAS) said:
Was the stone missed at the previous surgery, or is it a new stone? It seems strange that it formed so rapidly. I’m so glad he’s come through the op and hopefully it’ll be the start to a full recovery for BB xx
Click to expand...
I’m not sure, after Simon had done the X-ray, he wasn’t sure if it was one large stone or several fragments clustered together and said the stones could potentially have been on their way down from the kidneys or had already started forming without any of us knowing before the first surgery. Since it ended up being one large stone, I’m not sure if either of those things are possible or if it had started forming straight away post surgery. I didn’t speak with Simon after the op was done so couldn’t get his opinion on the matter. When I was really concerned about him having formed another stone on the 11th, the vet did an X-ray and there was no stone showing and then when I went to Ellie on the 14th and she did an X-ray, the stone was visible. So it could be possible that the stone was there but missed during the first surgery due to improper positioning during the X-rays taken. Honestly who knows, all we can do is hope it doesn't come back! He’s been through a lot of pain these last few months, I just hope this is the end of it for him. I’m glad we waited and took him rather than having him PTS on Tuesday, so thank you for your advice as it helped me make my decision in waiting the extra day xx
 
Little Ones said:
I’m not sure, after Simon had done the X-ray, he wasn’t sure if it was one large stone or several fragments clustered together and said the stones could potentially have been on their way down from the kidneys or had already started forming without any of us knowing before the first surgery. Since it ended up being one large stone, I’m not sure if either of those things are possible or if it had started forming straight away post surgery. I didn’t speak with Simon after the op was done so couldn’t get his opinion on the matter. When I was really concerned about him having formed another stone on the 11th, the vet did an X-ray and there was no stone showing and then when I went to Ellie on the 14th and she did an X-ray, the stone was visible. So it could be possible that the stone was there but missed during the first surgery due to improper positioning during the X-rays taken. Honestly who knows, all we can do is hope it doesn't come back! He’s been through a lot of pain these last few months, I just hope this is the end of it for him. I’m glad we waited and took him rather than having him PTS on Tuesday, so thank you for your advice as it helped me make my decision in waiting the extra day xx
Click to expand...
I know improper positioning, during x-ray, can result in the missing of stones being present, or even instances of a stone being suspected, that subsequently isn't there. I trust Simon's judgement 100%, which is why I urged you to get BB to him, before making any decisions. I am so glad you were able to! I just hope that BB can now enjoy life once again and you can finally stop worrying! xx
 
Well I'm so glad to hear some good news! I hope things continue to improve, I really do 😍
Eric's stone was missed due to the position of the xray. He had a conscious one as they were worried about putting him under I think so he was sitting up. His pelvis blocked the stone on the xray 😢
 
Here are George's two x-rays for comparison. The first one shows how a knee obscured the view of the stone. Lucky for George our vet is very thorough.
You can also see a line of sludge in his urethra (if you put your specs on!)
George stone knee.webp George's stone.webp
George is keeping everything crossed for BB x
 
Fingers firmly crossed for BB. Stones of that size can in some cases for very, very quickly. We have seen this repeatedly on here, and I have experienced it with my Cariad myself.

Today will hopefully the worst day for BB because the operation cocktail is wearing off but the healing process has not yet started and he will be feeling very sore. That's why I call the first post-op day 'hangover day'.

The sheer fact that he is eating straight away means that the amount of pain he is in has lessened massively the instant the stone has been removed and that what he is feeling right now is from the soreness. The bleeding is not uncommon, depending on the amount of bladder trauma (which must be quite considerable by now) from two stones banging around in there.
He will need higher painkillers for a bit longer because of his bladder which will take a bit to settle down but he should overall feel so much better in himself and will hopefully pick up quickly in the coming days.

My daintly Ceri who had much larger stone than your boy, lost 200g in just a week pre-op but then put it back on within 2 weeks post-op on her own without needing any feeding support. She was only 540g on the operating table and it was very touch and go. I am eternally grateful for Debbie taking her on the Friday on short notice and getting her to Simon as an emergency on the Monday while we were away in Amsterdam for my 50th birthday. Ceri making it through her op was my biggest birthday present.

The diuretic and a bit wetter diet than normal will hopefully help with flushing any calcium through the system with regular stronger pees and prevent any further stone formation. By now you dietary changes should hopefully be starting to kick in so you won't have to deal with a stone of this size again. The first weeks after a bladder stones are the really vulnerable ones.

I hope that this will help you?
 
Wiebke said:
Fingers firmly crossed for BB. Stones of that size can in some cases for very, very quickly. We have seen this repeatedly on here, and I have experienced it with my Cariad myself.

Today will hopefully the worst day for BB because the operation cocktail is wearing off but the healing process has not yet started and he will be feeling very sore. That's why I call the first post-op day 'hangover day'.

The sheer fact that he is eating straight away means that the amount of pain he is in has lessened massively the instant the stone has been removed and that what he is feeling right now is from the soreness. The bleeding is not uncommon, depending on the amount of bladder trauma (which must be quite considerable by now) from two stones banging around in there.
He will need higher painkillers for a bit longer because of his bladder which will take a bit to settle down but he should overall feel so much better in himself and will hopefully pick up quickly in the coming days.

My daintly Ceri who had much larger stone than your boy, lost 200g in just a week pre-op but then put it back on within 2 weeks post-op on her own without needing any feeding support. She was only 540g on the operating table and it was very touch and go. I am eternally grateful for Debbie taking her on the Friday on short notice and getting her to Simon as an emergency on the Monday while we were away in Amsterdam for my 50th birthday. Ceri making it through her op was my biggest birthday present.

The diuretic and a bit wetter diet than normal will hopefully help with flushing any calcium through the system with regular stronger pees and prevent any further stone formation. By now you dietary changes should hopefully be starting to kick in so you won't have to deal with a stone of this size again. The first weeks after a bladder stones are the really vulnerable ones.

I hope that this will help you?
Click to expand...
Thank you for so much info and for sharing your experience. He’s more active than before the surgery but not as much as normal. After his last op, he started packing on the weight straight away, but this hasn’t happened yet. He is eating and drinking, it’s just that sometimes I have to wake him up for him to do so rather than him coming out of his hidey to do it himself. I’m not sure if this is a pain thing, a habit he’s formed because of previous pain, or because of the meds. I’m hoping to start the frusol tonight as I want the diuretic in his system ASAP. The pain isn’t as bad, but still is happening more than I’d like and is louder than I’d like. He’s also started bunny hopping every now and then since the procedure, which I’m assuming is a pain thing? I’ve only ever seen it in one of my really senior piggies.

I have questions about diet that I need help with. I already filter their water, but not sure if I need to make dietary changes. I always soak their veg before they have it, too. Their diet isn’t very varied as both BB and Sprout have IC, and Digby’s stomach is very sensitive now that he’s older (8 y/o). They have coriander, cucumber, bell pepper and green beans. They also get a few pea flakes sometimes. Should I be giving other things? The vet nurse at C&R told me to give leafy greens but I’m not sure what I can give that will be suitable for BB? I want to give them all the best, wettest diet possible!
 
Free Ranger said:
Here are George's two x-rays for comparison. The first one shows how a knee obscured the view of the stone. Lucky for George our vet is very thorough.
You can also see a line of sludge in his urethra (if you put your specs on!)
View attachment 215034 View attachment 215035
George is keeping everything crossed for BB x
Click to expand...
Exactly, their positioning can affect a lot - Simon had explained this to me a couple of years ago when we thought we could be dealing with a stone with Little. I’m sure the vet that did BBs first op would have X-rayed after the surgery under anaesthesia, so not sure if a stone could be missed this way? Or if it’s just in a conscious X-ray that a stone can be missed? I’m not sure!
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
I know improper positioning, during x-ray, can result in the missing of stones being present, or even instances of a stone being suspected, that subsequently isn't there. I trust Simon's judgement 100%, which is why I urged you to get BB to him, before making any decisions. I am so glad you were able to! I just hope that BB can now enjoy life once again and you can finally stop worrying! xx
Click to expand...
Yes me too, it’s just always a hard call when they’re in so much pain! I just wish he were pain free now, but I know these things take time. Especially when his bladder will have had a great deal of trauma after having gone in a second time so soon!

Wheekallweek said:
Well I'm so glad to hear some good news! I hope things continue to improve, I really do 😍
Eric's stone was missed due to the position of the xray. He had a conscious one as they were worried about putting him under I think so he was sitting up. His pelvis blocked the stone on the xray 😢
Click to expand...
Thank you! Here’s hoping that once he’s all healed up, he can be happy and pain free! I’m not letting myself be relieved just yet.
Ah poor Eric :( I hope things worked out for him in the end?
 
If mine had to choose they would choose grass over everything else... it's just hunting down a good source. They love their veggies but the morning grass is what they settle down and wait for. I also try and get in a few dandelion leaves as although they have higher calcium they are a diuretic. My Nan used to say "Don't pick dandelions, you'll wet the bed!" which never made any sense until I found out what a diuretic was.
 
Little Ones said:
Thank you for so much info and for sharing your experience. He’s more active than before the surgery but not as much as normal. After his last op, he started packing on the weight straight away, but this hasn’t happened yet. He is eating and drinking, it’s just that sometimes I have to wake him up for him to do so rather than him coming out of his hidey to do it himself. I’m not sure if this is a pain thing, a habit he’s formed because of previous pain, or because of the meds. I’m hoping to start the frusol tonight as I want the diuretic in his system ASAP. The pain isn’t as bad, but still is happening more than I’d like and is louder than I’d like. He’s also started bunny hopping every now and then since the procedure, which I’m assuming is a pain thing? I’ve only ever seen it in one of my really senior piggies.

I have questions about diet that I need help with. I already filter their water, but not sure if I need to make dietary changes. I always soak their veg before they have it, too. Their diet isn’t very varied as both BB and Sprout have IC, and Digby’s stomach is very sensitive now that he’s older (8 y/o). They have coriander, cucumber, bell pepper and green beans. They also get a few pea flakes sometimes. Should I be giving other things? The vet nurse at C&R told me to give leafy greens but I’m not sure what I can give that will be suitable for BB? I want to give them all the best, wettest diet possible!
Click to expand...

Hi

Please give some lettuce (Romaine/Cos or gem), which is also actually mildly diuretic, and a slice of greens once a week but leave out the green beans and pea flakes. Your diet may have gone a bit too low in calcium; just 1 tablespoon of pellets per piggy day but that makes room for the greens, which also provide magnesium (not in pellets) and some vitamin C or you can feed a little fresh herb whenever you use it in your own cooking (like parsley) or have a pot of mint, basil, dill or fennel instead of a slice of greens for a wider range of trace element.
Note that any dry forage is fine as long as you are aware that it is higher in calcium because of the evaporated water and that you want to feed it judiciously.

You are aiming at a mix of leafy greens that provide a range of trace elements but also additional fluid. When in season, fresh grass is highly recommended but needs careful introduction. Dog pee free dandelions are also diuretic but they should be ideally eaten with some veg high in water because they are a bit higher in calcium but it won't be an issue unless you feed them in big bunches; especially young ones are a favourite treat of my own piggies.

Please note that not being a good natural drinker can be a contributing factor to stones and that feeding more high fluid veg (cucumber and lettuce; any mixes without spinach, rocket, iceberg etc.; lambs lettuce is OK) will encourage more and stronger pees but that serving more fluid in edible form will mean that drinking piggies will need less water from the bottle. They won't have more thirst just because you offer more fluid.

The problem with IC piggies is in our own experience over the last few years that it is not so much what you feed as part of your regular diet but that any dietary changes can trigger a new flare up, including lettuce but not exclusively so. Piggies on lettuce have not fared any worse than piggies without lettuce in our own experiences over the last years but some piggies do react more sensitively to any changes in a diet.

If you have concerns over a slower recovery, then please contact the clinic. It is likely that the operation has been more difficult and may take longer to heal, especially if there is a higher degree of bladder trauma.
 
Wiebke said:
Hi

Please give some lettuce (Romaine/Cos or gem), which is also actually mildly diuretic, and a slice of greens once a week but leave out the green beans and pea flakes. Your diet may have gone a bit too low in calcium; just 1 tablespoon of pellets per piggy day but that makes room for the greens, which also provide magnesium (not in pellets) and some vitamin C or you can feed a little fresh herb whenever you use it in your own cooking (like parsley) or have a pot of mint, basil, dill or fennel instead of a slice of greens for a wider range of trace element.
Note that any dry forage is fine as long as you are aware that it is higher in calcium because of the evaporated water and that you want to feed it judiciously.

You are aiming at a mix of leafy greens that provide a range of trace elements but also additional fluid. When in season, fresh grass is highly recommended but needs careful introduction. Dog pee free dandelions are also diuretic but they should be ideally eaten with some veg high in water because they are a bit higher in calcium but it won't be an issue unless you feed them in big bunches; especially young ones are a favourite treat of my own piggies.

Please note that not being a good natural drinker can be a contributing factor to stones and that feeding more high fluid veg (cucumber and lettuce; any mixes without spinach, rocket, iceberg etc.; lambs lettuce is OK) will encourage more and stronger pees but that serving more fluid in edible form will mean that drinking piggies will need less water from the bottle. They won't have more thirst just because you offer more fluid.

The problem with IC piggies is in our own experience over the last few years that it is not so much what you feed as part of your regular diet but that any dietary changes can trigger a new flare up, including lettuce but not exclusively so. Piggies on lettuce have not fared any worse than piggies without lettuce in our own experiences over the last years but some piggies do react more sensitively to any changes in a diet.

If you have concerns over a slower recovery, then please contact the clinic. It is likely that the operation has been more difficult and may take longer to heal, especially if there is a higher degree of bladder trauma.
Click to expand...
We had a bladder stone scare several years back which led to us removing a lot of the calcium from the diet, I didn’t realise going too low would also be a problem until I’ve read up on things following BBS first op. I’ll go out and buy everything needed in an hour or so for him. Can I ask what you mean by giving a slice of ’greens’? Also with the lettuce, how many different types should I be offering at once? Should I only be giving them one of each a day on a rotation, or could I give both romaine and gem together? This is all so useful, thank you!
 
Free Ranger said:
If mine had to choose they would choose grass over everything else... it's just hunting down a good source. They love their veggies but the morning grass is what they settle down and wait for. I also try and get in a few dandelion leaves as although they have higher calcium they are a diuretic. My Nan used to say "Don't pick dandelions, you'll wet the bed!" which never made any sense until I found out what a diuretic was.
Click to expand...
We have grass but are cautious in giving it as we get a lot of cats peeing in our garden. Early last year, BB had a real health issue and ate strictly grass until he made it through, but we’d spend a lot of time washing and drying it so we felt comfortable giving it to him.

furryfriends (TEAS) said:
I’ve never had a piggy with a bladder issue and I feed mainly this. I also feed coriander, parsley, dill and occasionally peppers and cucumber. I never feed spring greens. I also feed lots of grass View attachment 215153
Click to expand...
We used to feed a baby leaf mix but stopped after Little’s own bladder stone scare, I’ll have a look and see if I can find one without rocket. I wish we could feed grass easily but it’s just not possible for us. I feel like it would help all the piggies out health wise xx
 
Little Ones said:
Exactly, their positioning can affect a lot - Simon had explained this to me a couple of years ago when we thought we could be dealing with a stone with Little. I’m sure the vet that did BBs first op would have X-rayed after the surgery under anaesthesia, so not sure if a stone could be missed this way? Or if it’s just in a conscious X-ray that a stone can be missed? I’m not sure!

Yes me too, it’s just always a hard call when they’re in so much pain! I just wish he were pain free now, but I know these things take time. Especially when his bladder will have had a great deal of trauma after having gone in a second time so soon!


Thank you! Here’s hoping that once he’s all healed up, he can be happy and pain free! I’m not letting myself be relieved just yet.
Ah poor Eric :( I hope things worked out for him in the end?
Click to expand...
Aw I wish it had too but unfortunately we lost him after his operation to remove it 😢
 
On my way back from the shop. Got some gem lettuce, sliced greens (never heard of them before!) and parsley. Going to give that on top of the bell pepper, cucumber and coriander. Hopefully this helps! If I need anything else then please let me know. I looked for a baby leaf mix without rocket or spinach but couldn’t find one. Thanks for the help everyone!
 
I hope BB continues to improve.you and him have been through so much.i use floret mixed crispy salad mix as its safe,if you wanted a change.i get 500gram bags from costco,£3.00 a bag so its cost effective.you can get it in most supermarkets. :hug:
 
Little Ones said:
We have grass but are cautious in giving it as we get a lot of cats peeing in our garden. Early last year, BB had a real health issue and ate strictly grass until he made it through, but we’d spend a lot of time washing and drying it so we felt comfortable giving it to him.


We used to feed a baby leaf mix but stopped after Little’s own bladder stone scare, I’ll have a look and see if I can find one without rocket. I wish we could feed grass easily but it’s just not possible for us. I feel like it would help all the piggies out health wise xx
Click to expand...
Why were you drying the grass? If I’m short of grass in my garden I pick some when I’m out walking, wash it and then give it to them wet!
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
Why were you drying the grass? If I’m short of grass in my garden I pick some when I’m out walking, wash it and then give it to them wet!
Click to expand...
I don’t remember why, we’d just sort of leave it out to dry before giving it to him. It could’ve been so it wouldn’t upset his stomach? He was dealing with a really bad stomach issue which almost killed him. How thorough are you when you wash the grass you pick? Is it just a thorough rinse for a few minutes?
eileen said:
I hope BB continues to improve.you and him have been through so much.i use floret mixed crispy salad mix as its safe,if you wanted a change.i get 500gram bags from costco,£3.00 a bag so its cost effective.you can get it in most supermarkets. :hug:
Click to expand...
Thanks Eileen, and thank you for the advice, I’ll have a look :) xx
 
Yesterday BB was very up and down, some hours he was in a lot of pain and seemed low energy, other times he seemed happy enough even with pain. Today seems like a better day than yesterday which is a good sign but it could all change later on.
Today I’ve noticed bladder sludge in the cage - not sure what this means?
 
Little Ones said:
Yesterday BB was very up and down, some hours he was in a lot of pain and seemed low energy, other times he seemed happy enough even with pain. Today seems like a better day than yesterday which is a good sign but it could all change later on.
Today I’ve noticed bladder sludge in the cage - not sure what this means?
Click to expand...
Ring Cat and Rabbit Clinic and ask them to check with Simon or Kim. Maybe that’s why he’s feeling better today, as the sludge has come out.
 
We spoke to Simon yesterday as he looked over BBs file and gave me a ring. He said that the bladder sludge isn’t much to worry about and is ’normal’ in the sense that some piggies are just more prone to bladder ailments and it’s better for it to come out than to stay in there. He said that even if it was a concern, there’s nothing we could even do about it. We had a chat about several things which currently don’t apply to BB, such as the possibility of BB having some kind of chronic cystitis (beyond IC) and if this were the case then the stones could keep forming due to it or that even if it didn’t cause a stone it could cause permanent pain which would then lead to euthanasia anyway. He said if BBs pain became worse like last time then we wouldn’t really even need to X-ray because the bottom line would be that stone or no stone, the pain isn’t fixable and so, again, euthanasia is the only option. — This part of the convo was just us discussing different possibilities and none of it is actually what is going to happen as of right now. Simon did say though that it was likely he was already dealing with bladder pain prior to the stones formation.
Now for the update:
Yesterday and today BBs pain has been the best it’s been in months! I don’t want to jinx it or let myself get my hopes up, but the pain relief seems to be totally controlling the pain! Finally! A couple of hours before meds are due and for an hour or two after he has them, I’m hearing some pain which can range from being quiet to a little loud (still quieter than pre-op) but once the meds are active, they’re actually working! Even after his first op, this wasn’t the case as he was still having pain most of the time when he pooped. We’ve been giving gabapentin every 8 hours, so typically 9am, 5pm and 1am for a while now and we’re still doing that. I’m not sure if it’s helping as it seems to be his main medication he has every 12 hours that curb the pain, so it could be the loxicom and tramadol are more effective in his case. Our goal now is to phase out this third dose of gabapentin. I think we’re going to give him the third dose today but potentially not tomorrow depending on if he’s still the same or better.
BBs weight has gone up really well too! Two days ago he’d shot up to 1393 and yesterday he was 1404. Before his first op he was maintaining 1320ish, afterwards he put weight on to 1380ish which he then lost and was fluctuating between 1330-1365 in the 2 weeks then leading up to his second op and now he’s putting it back on. Before he became unwell, he weighed roughly 1420, so he’s only track to being his normal weight again. Not to mention that yesterday and today, hes been back to normal. I don’t have to wake him up to eat, he’s waking himself up. He’s eating super well and his weight is reflecting that. Trying not to get my hopes up, trying not to feel relieved just yet… but he sure is making it hard! I can’t believe how well he is doing!
 
Update
All is still good. We managed to get the gabapentin down to twice daily instead of three times a day and we’ve also managed to get BB off the tramadol. He’s also come off his gut medications since he’s eating marvellously and packing the weight on - he’s 1430ish now, his normal weight pre illness! We’re going to give the sulfatrim until Wednesday as we weren’t told how long to give it for and two weeks seems appropriate, and then we’ll stop it. We’re stopping the gabapentin tomorrow and hoping for no pain - we’ve ran out of the one C&R gave us and dipped back into the one we were using prior to seeing Simon which is a lower strength but also probs only enough for one last dose tonight. The pain is nonexistent, even with the meds worn off so I’m confident he’ll be okay without it. That leaves us with the loxicom and frusol which I believe will be long term medications for him. The loxicom will keep down any potential bladder inflammation which could cause stones and the frusol will ensure his bladder is constantly being flushed out and nothing is staying in there long enough for a stone to build up. That’s the hope, anyway.
Ever since maybe day 5 post op, the pain has more or less been gone. I’m led to believe the second stone was already present in the bladder during his first op but was missed as we never got him to a point post op where he had 0 pain (whilst on 3 lots of pain relief) whereas the second op left him painless (with the pain relief) after the initial healing period and I know everything was 100% removed this time. Because he was left with pain first off, I’m thinking the second stone was just missed, if any of that logic makes sense. Anyway, he’s doing remarkably well. He’ll be two weeks post op on Wednesday. To think we were so close to putting him to sleep! We are so relieved! This is the best he’s felt since August before this all began.
Though, my stress isn’t over. Digby, our 8 year old, has been losing roughly 5-7grams a day for about a week and a half now. We have a vet appointment on Saturday. Just when I thought I’d done with vets for a while! I’m thinking it’s organ related and nothing we can do, not sure how we’ll confirm it since sedation for a blood test would probably do more harm than good at his age. He eats good, drinks good, poops good, so it seems like it’s just one of those things. We didn’t think he’d make it to this summer because he’s just old, and then when he made it past summer we didn’t think he’d make it past this year. We’ll see what happens.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top