Bladder sludge

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

so i’ve decided to follow vets advice today, no grass (hoping one day without wont do harm) and phone up tomorrow and just say i am concerned about dellas water intake and obviously wanting to increase water to help with the sludge, how do i ask if removing leafy greens and grass is definitely the right thing to do without sounding like I'm questioning her?

Just say you’ve been doing some research and you’ve seen that some vets are suggesting upping the grass and leafy veg/salad intake, with good results. John Chitty talks about it in the webinar. He’s a very well known exotic vet.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Just say you’ve been doing some research and you’ve seen that some vets are suggesting upping the grass and leafy veg/salad intake, with good results. John Chitty talks about it in the webinar. He’s a very well known exotic vet.

thanks so much! will they be okay going without today?

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

thanks so much! will they be okay going without today?

Yes, if you feel more comfortable waiting until you’ve spoken to your vet. Also, animals are very good at picking up on our anxiety and stress can play a big part in bladder issues, so try and walk away from the cage and find something else to do, to try and reduce your stress levels xx

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Yes, if you feel more comfortable waiting until you’ve spoken to your vet. Also, animals are very good at picking up on our anxiety and stress can play a big part in bladder issues, so try and walk away from the cage and find something else to do, to try and reduce your stress levels xx

thankyou, i just don’t want to go against her word, currently listening to this webinar by john chitty.. i feel like a monster, i thought bringing them in was better but now i feel like everything i’ve done for my babies is wrong i know i feel like my anxiety is causing dellas problems and i feel like such a bad mummy to them i dont know what to do anymore

 

[piggiemummy03x]

thankyou so much for sharing this, maybe i shouldn’t own piggies

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

thankyou, i just don’t want to go against her word, currently listening to this webinar by john chitty.. i feel like a monster, i thought bringing them in was better but now i feel like everything i’ve done for my babies is wrong i know i feel like my anxiety is causing dellas problems and i feel like such a bad mummy to them i dont know what to do anymore

You’re a very caring owner trying to do right by your little ones! Please don’t doubt yourself! John Chitty explains how to best keep piggies indoors! xx

 

[Free Ranger]

vet has suggested to cut out leafy greens,

I think this might be a bit of a misunderstanding...
Lots of vets will give advice for a piggy with bladder issues but I think he perhaps meant dark green leafy veg like kale and spinach. This is very common vet advice - these dark veg are among the highest in calcium. I don't really see how grass - which is essentially hay with added water - is going to be a problem. Or lettuce - again essentially water. I've not been advised to avoid these before. If she's an IC piggy I don't know if they're looking at trigger foods (not something I know about) but I bet it was just the dark green veg and he maybe forgot to specify. I bet if you phone or mail them that's what they'll say.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

You’re a very caring owner trying to do right by your little ones! Please don’t doubt yourself! John Chitty explains how to best keep piggies indoors! xx

i honestly feel awful, i love my girls so much but i am now questioning everything i have ever done for them.. i honestly feel soso bad, i haven’t got to that bit yet i don’t think, i’m going to follow everything he says, i just want whats best for my babies!

 

[piggiemummy03x]

I think this might be a bit of a misunderstanding...
Lots of vets will give advice for a piggy with bladder issues but I think he perhaps meant dark green leafy veg like kale and spinach. This is very common vet advice - these dark veg are among the highest in calcium. I don't really see how grass - which is essentially hay with added water - is going to be a problem. Or lettuce - again essentially water. I've not been advised to avoid these before. If she's an IC piggy I don't know if they're looking at trigger foods (not something I know about) but I bet it was just the dark green veg and he maybe forgot to specify. I bet if you phone or mail them that's what they'll say.

going to phone up tomorrow and ask! i thought it may be what you say about trigger foods as nothing else seems to be working!

 

[Piggies2023]

oh my gosh, the girls are in our room too but della (touch wood) has never woke us! bless her heart they must be so loud!

ooo i might start increasing how much cucumber we give, slowly of course checking for wet poos!

It is really upsetting. I didn't get a chance to speak to the vet this afternoon, annoyed with myself for not remembering to ask about cartophen this morning while I was there. But I have the gabapentin. I'm going to email my vet start of next week to ask about the injections.

In regards to the grass/leafy veg. I do think it's about trigger foods. I've read (can't remember where mind) that for some pigs grass and leafy veg can make IC worse.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

It is really upsetting. I didn't get a chance to speak to the vet this afternoon, annoyed with myself for not remembering to ask about cartophen this morning while I was there. But I have the gabapentin. I'm going to email my vet start of next week to ask about the injections.

In regards to the grass/leafy veg. I do think it's about trigger foods. I've read (can't remember where mind) that for some pigs grass and leafy veg can make IC worse.

dont beat yourself up! its extremely overwhelming!

yes i read that too! hence why i stopped lettuce and now i think why vets recommend stopping the grass! everythings so conflicted and i just don’t know what to do!

 

[Piggies&buns]

There can be trigger foods with IC, but has she been diagnosed with IC? IC affects the glucosamine layer in the bladder.
You said she had sludge. This would not be trigger food factor in this case. Sludge is crystals packed in the bladder. Caused by not being a good drinker, a diet too high or too low in calcium. something wrong in the calcium absorption process, genetic issue. Often several of these things. High fluid intake keeps the bladder flushing through, removing the crystals.

Even in piggies with IC they absolutely can have lettuce! With IC it’s changes to the diet which seem to cause the most issues, not the diet itself.

 

[Free Ranger]

You are doing a great job - not every pig is the same, seriously. George was kept exactly the same as the girls and yet he got repeated stones after a certain age.

The current thinking is that in some pigs 'change' in the diet or lifestyle (or anything really) triggers a bout of IC but in people there are certainly trigger foods for IC. However, I never heard of sludge having a trigger food. New spring grass triggered bloat in Louise - not a crazy notion as although they got grass all through the winter it was old meadow grass, more fibrous and tough, whereas the lush growth of my new turf grass was probably much higher in fermentable sugars that puffed her up. BUT the other two pigs were completely unaffected. In horses this type of grass can also affect the gut bacteria and sometimes this leads to an apparently unrelated condition - laminitis - where the bit between the hoof and the skeleton inflames painfully. Bizarre - and I'm not sure anyone knows why. We're just feeling our way through really. You might find that if she can pass that sludge or get it flushed out her symptoms improve dramatcally.

I'm just listening to that video in the background...

 

[piggiemummy03x]

There can be trigger foods with IC, but has she been diagnosed with IC?
You said she had sludge. This would not be trigger food factor purely in this case. Sludge is crystals packed in the bladder, they are kept at bay by good urination. Caused by not being a good drinker, a diet too high or too low in calcium. something wrong in the calcium absorption process, genetic issue. Often several of these things.

Even in piggies with IC they absolutely can have lettuce! With IC it’s changes to the diet which seem to cause the most issues, not the diet itself.

shes not been diagnosed no, i was wondering if this was going to help get a diagnosis?
yes this makes sense and i agree she needs as much water as possible.

 

[Piggies&buns]

IC is only diagnosed when every other bladder issue (UTI, sludge, stones) has been eliminated and proven negative. Your diagnosis is sludge.
She may be left with a sore bladder, and I know she has had a stone before and when she was young, so to me it wouldnt fit with purely an IC issue, it’s possibly a genetic issue.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

You are doing a great job - not every pig is the same, seriously. George was kept exactly the same as the girls and yet he got repeated stones after a certain age.

The current thinking is that in some pigs 'change' in the diet or lifestyle (or anything really) triggers a bout of IC but in people there are certainly trigger foods for IC. However, I never heard of sludge having a trigger food. New spring grass triggered bloat in Louise - not a crazy notion as although they got grass all through the winter it was old meadow grass, more fibrous and tough, whereas the lush growth of my new turf grass was probably much higher in fermentable sugars that puffed her up. BUT the other two pigs were completely unaffected. In horses this type of grass can also affect the gut bacteria and sometimes this leads to an apparently unrelated condition - laminitis - where the bit between the hoof and the skeleton inflames painfully. Bizarre - and I'm not sure anyone knows why. We're just feeling our way through really. You might find that if she can pass that sludge or get it flushed out her symptoms improve dramatcally.

I'm just listening to that video in the background...

thank you so much. going to phone vets tomorrow and basically say i want to increase grass and start on lettuce again! that video was really interesting, informative and helpful!

 

[piggiemummy03x]

IC is only diagnosed when every other bladder issue (UTI, sludge, stones) has been eliminated and proven negative. Your diagnosis is sludge.
She may be left with a sore bladder, and I know she has had a stone before and when she was young, so to me it wouldnt fit with purely an IC issue, it’s possibly a genetic issue.

okay i see, will be contacting the vets tomorrow, thankyou all so so much!

 

[Free Ranger]

We know it's really hard for you and you will have highs and lows and moments of sheer despair. But you'll get through this one way or another. it might have to be a bladder flush but that's not surgery as such. Thinking of you all x

 

[piggl]

The way I approach vets depend on the vet.
If they are understanding and I know them quite well I would just go for it, I tell them my concerns and what I would like to change after research.
If they are perhaps less knowledgeable in pigs or seem less invested in my pigs wellness (just doing the basic), or if I do not have much of a relationship with them I approach it like I somewhat know what I am speaking about. I just speak nonchalantly but make my intentions clear, I have found they 'catch my drift' and it makes the conversation feel less questioning and more inquiring.

This is what I find works for me, I have seen quite a few vets in my life and have moved a few times so have got to know different types of vet (in Scotland atleast).
This is completely personal experience so you do not have to relate to or use what I suggest but if you are anxious about it this is how I decide on how to approach such, every vet will be different.

Good luck with the call either way and I am wishing your girl all the best x

 

[piggiemummy03x]

We know it's really hard for you and you will have highs and lows and moments of sheer despair. But you'll get through this one way or another. it might have to be a bladder flush but that's not surgery as such. Thinking of you all x

thankyou so so much i really do appreciate all your help, advice and support x

 

[piggiemummy03x]

The way I approach vets depend on the vet.
If they are understanding and I know them quite well I would just go for it, I tell them my concerns and what I would like to change after research.
If they are perhaps less knowledgeable in pigs or seem less invested in my pigs wellness (just doing the basic), or if I do not have much of a relationship with them I approach it like I somewhat know what I am speaking about. I just speak nonchalantly but make my intentions clear, I have found they 'catch my drift' and it makes the conversation feel less questioning and more inquiring.

This is what I find works for me, I have seen quite a few vets in my life and have moved a few times so have got to know different types of vet (in Scotland atleast).
This is completely personal experience so you do not have to relate to or use what I suggest but if you are anxious about it this is how I decide on how to approach such, every vet will be different.

Good luck with the call either way and I am wishing your girl all the best x

thank you! i love our vet, she owns piggies herself so i have a lot of trust in her! thanks so much for this i really appreciate it! xx

 

[piggiemummy03x]

morning everyone!
so i have spoken to the receptionist at our vets (unfortunately our vet isn’t in till tuesday now) who spoke to another vet and asked for me.. they’ve agreed to NOT stop feeding grass, but to keep away from greens at the moment as they haven’t got the knowledge to advise and have said phone back to tuesday to ask our vet. this has made me feel SO much better.. i have also been told i can syringe some water to her.. how should this be done ideally? how often a day?

 

[Free Ranger]

I used a 1ml syringe with a rubber tip for this as I could be sure I wasn't going to get a sudden spurt which might get inhaled. I had an egg cup of piggy water which I just offered whenever I went past. George took most in the evenings when he was eating pellets but he'd have some during the day. George was that used to syringes he thought they were all likely to be yummy though!

 

[piggl]

morning everyone!
so i have spoken to the receptionist at our vets (unfortunately our vet isn’t in till tuesday now) who spoke to another vet and asked for me.. they’ve agreed to NOT stop feeding grass, but to keep away from greens at the moment as they haven’t got the knowledge to advise and have said phone back to tuesday to ask our vet. this has made me feel SO much better.. i have also been told i can syringe some water to her.. how should this be done ideally? how often a day?

Assuming your girl is on medications, I would do this during then so she are more aware of what is happening as you would not want to catch her off guard, potentially causing aspiration.

You will want to administer a very small amount at a time as it may likely be thinner than her other medications so might catch her/you off guard.

As for how much I am not really sure, if she got medication 3x a day I would personally administer 1ml of water per time.
You can also make her critical feed more watery, as said above, again being careful to administer it slower.

One thing I also find is that if they are on my lap and I hold their water bottle up to them they will have a drink, so you could offer this during cuddles. I also give it a little squeeze, not too much but just a little extra.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

I used a 1ml syringe with a rubber tip for this as I could be sure I wasn't going to get a sudden spurt which might get inhaled. I had an egg cup of piggy water which I just offered whenever I went past. George took most in the evenings when he was eating pellets but he'd have some during the day. George was that used to syringes he thought they were all likely to be yummy though!

thanks so much! i only have the normal little syringes (1ml) so was just super careful but to our surprise she actually willing took some! i recon just over a ml, i’m so proud! do you know how much is too much or should i just try throughout the day and see how much she willingly takes? is there any chance i can give too much?

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Assuming your girl is on medications, I would do this during then so she are more aware of what is happening as you would not want to catch her off guard, potentially causing aspiration.

You will want to administer a very small amount at a time as it may likely be thinner than her other medications so might catch her/you off guard.

As for how much I am not really sure, if she got medication 3x a day I would personally administer 1ml of water per time.
You can also make her critical feed more watery, as said above, again being careful to administer it slower.

One thing I also find is that if they are on my lap and I hold their water bottle up to them they will have a drink, so you could offer this during cuddles. I also give it a little squeeze, not too much but just a little extra.

brilliant! iv just given her some after baytril and she seemed rather willing to take it! i recon just over a ml. she gets meds twice a day so was going to do it then and try once in the afternoon but not forcing. she is not currently getting critical care as shes eating well on her ownill try the bottle tip thankyou!

 

[Free Ranger]

do you know how much is too much or should i just try throughout the day and see how much she willingly takes?

Whatever she likes really - she'll pee out the excess. It could be that (like George) having a bladder issue gives her a thirst. Nature is on our side sometimes. George glugged it down so cheerfully the girls thought they were missing out and queued for a go on the syringe like with his matacam. They looked genuinely bewildered when they realised this new nectar was just plain water and they didn't have anything like the same interest as George did. He liked to drink when he was eating his evening pellets - he could take about 10 ml in one session then. She'll stop when she's had enough.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Whatever she likes really - she'll pee out the excess. It could be that (like George) having a bladder issue gives her a thirst. Nature is on our side sometimes. George glugged it down so cheerfully the girls thought they were missing out and queued for a go on the syringe like with his matacam. They looked genuinely bewildered when they realised this new nectar was just plain water and they didn't have anything like the same interest as George did. He liked to drink when he was eating his evening pellets - he could take about 10 ml in one session then. She'll stop when she's had enough.

oh bless his heart! della will only take about 1ml then she has enough.. i hope she’s getting enough in i’ve upped her cucumber and grass is now given twice a day!

 

[Free Ranger]

1ml might be a good sign - that her problem isn't triggering her to drink to excess. Remember both my healthy girls didn't want it. Della obviously thinks she's had enough anyway x

 

[piggiemummy03x]

1ml might be a good sign - that her problem isn't triggering her to drink to excess. Remember both my healthy girls didn't want it. Della obviously thinks she's had enough anyway x

thanks! x