Bladder sludge

[piggiemummy03x]

I asked the same question recently. I've tagged you in the thread

thankyou!

 

[Free Ranger]

@Wiebke if you are around - piggy Nancy has urinary symptoms, crying a lot when peeing and sometimes pooping etc but poster also says

It's Nancy's behaviour with the cysts, no hair loss etc. They are small functional cysts. She behaves like she's on heat for months at a time.

Of course it could just be two separate and unrelated issues for poor Nancy but can such cysts affect a sow's urinary tract somehow?

 

[Piggies2023]

@Wiebke if you are around - piggy Nancy has urinary symptoms, crying a lot when peeing and sometimes pooping etc but poster also says

Of course it could just be two separate and unrelated issues for poor Nancy but can such cysts affect a sow's urinary tract somehow?

I asked my vet the same question. She said that because they are so small they shouldn't be impacting the bladder. But that the stress of her being hormonal could be making her bladder issues worse. The issue I have is she's not well, so putting her through surgery right now for something potentially unrelated may not be wise.

 

[Free Ranger]

That's very true - and if she does have a UTI the surgery won't help that. @Wiebke (sorry it's twice W!) will know much more about types of cysts than me - I've seen on here that the smaller cysts cause more hormonal symptoms but I'm not sure whether urinary irritation is one of them. Or whether they're causing her stress to the point that her bladder is reacting like with an IC piggy. Both outside by area of experience...

A reply will appear at some point x

 

[Wiebke]

I asked my vet the same question. She said that because they are so small they shouldn't be impacting the bladder. But that the stress of her being hormonal could be making her bladder issues worse. The issue I have is she's not well, so putting her through surgery right now for something potentially unrelated may not be wise.

Especially sterile interstitial cystitis (sterile IC) is stress related so yes, active hormonal cysts can make it worse. The stress from high hormone output that can look like a nonstop season should not be underestimated. Would you consider trying hormone therapy as a less invasive method?
This guide explains more: Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)

The hormonally most active cysts are actually usually comparatively small but growing cysts in sows typically between 2-4 years of age; the really large cysts that are typical for older sows are generally mostly non-hormonal fluid-filled ones and don't cause any of the classic symptoms but they can cause indirect trouble through their size by pressing on other organs. It is all very tightly pack in down there with the gut wrapping around the urinary and the reproductive tract, which are parallel and interlocking as well, so if something is wrong in one tract it can quickly impact on the other two.

PS: Sorry for not being around much at the moment. I am currently looking round the clock after a very ill piggy of mine that is touch and go.

 

[Free Ranger]

Of course, and thanks for your time and knowledge

This is perhaps something to consider then @Lucy3733 ...

 

[Piggies2023]

Especially sterile interstitial cystitis (sterile IC) is stress related so yes, active hormonal cysts can make it worse. The stress from high hormone output that can look like a nonstop season should not be underestimated. Would you consider trying hormone therapy as a less invasive method?
This guide explains more: Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)

The hormonally most active cysts are actually usually comparatively small but growing cysts in sows typically between 2-4 years of age; the really large cysts that are typical for older sows are generally mostly non-hormonal fluid-filled ones and don't cause any of the classic symptoms but they can cause indirect trouble through their size by pressing on other organs. It is all very tightly pack in down there with the gut wrapping around the urinary and the reproductive tract, which are parallel and interlocking as well, so if something is wrong in one tract it can quickly impact on the other two.

PS: Sorry for not being around much at the moment. I am currently looking round the clock after a very ill piggy of mine that is touch and go.

Thank you. That's interesting information. I will talk to my vet about these options. The hormonal injections may give us a chance to see how much cysts are impacting on her, and if it helps could then remove ovaries when she presents more well if they grow back.

Nancy can't be left how she is, her pain levels are not good. I'm going to be asking for a repeat x-ray when my vet is back though I think to double check bladder stones haven't grown since the last x-ray a month ago. At the moment my gut instinct says ovary surgery isn't a good idea right now. I need her pain under control and to know for sure what is wrong I think. I worry she won't currently survive the surgery but I need to do something.

Sorry to hear you have such a poorly piggie, it's certainly emotionally and physically exhausting.

 

[Piggies2023]

my della had been on gabapentin and metacam but still having wees where shes crying

How is Della?

Can I ask how much gabapentin and how big she is? I'm asking a vet tomorrow for it. I've got a dosage from online piggie vet. It's awful hearing them cry. I had a near miss today with Nancy, a non guinea pig savvy vet gave her very powerful pain killer injection and it didn't go well.


Does Della cry when she poos? Nancy cries when pooing and at random times.

 

[Free Ranger]

George was prescribed gabapentin when he was about 950g at 0.1ml twice a day BUT with an important proviso...

I didn't want to put George on this long term but just to cover the odd day or so. I got this in February after he'd had his stone removed and then formed the next one within a few weeks. I knew then that further surgery would be pointless so trying to plan longer term. Gabapentin is something they become dependant on so the vet I spoke to said that if I wanted to dose him for, say, 5 days at twice a day I shouldn't then just stop it suddenly but should wean him off. I actually just used it for the odd day here or there on top of his metacam - occasionally twice a day - but not more than that, so that wasn't an issue.

It was more planning for the future in case he came to his natural end and had pain from the stone. What actually happened was that he was OK for quite a few weeks then seemed to be increasingly in pain in March and it turned out that he'd got another UTI so although the gabapentin helped it didn't improve his situation at that point and he got worse until he started his AB (which did act very quickly, within the first 24h). Sadly after a week on his antibiotics (with support feeding and probiotics) he started to wobble weakly when he walked so I stopped the AB but we couldn't get his eating back on track. He died less than a week later although thank heaven his peeing pain did not return in that time. Small mercies.

So the questions to ask the vet are about dose, about frequency of dose and about dependency. Also about any possible side effects. Meds can sometimes be calculated as mgs per kg of pig in 24 hours so for some meds people might have one full dose once a day, or 2 x 1/2 that dose every 12 hours if you see what I mean. So ask about once a day versus morning and evening etc. If you have to put Nancy on this it's not just that it's 'stronger' than metacam - I think it also acts in a different way so a combination of the two can help tackle the pain.

It's gentler than the buprenorphine: an opioid painkiller sometimes used in piggies - that may be what you had by injection. This is a very effective pain relief but when my pigs have had it they've been stoned out of their gourd and have stopped eating for several hours until it wore off. George got a double dose when he was sent home after his stone op and while I was grateful for the pain relief it was very hard on him. He crawled into his snuggle sack and stayed very still. Ivy just stood and rocked as she was peeing out her stone/sludge (whatever it was that had lit up on her x-ray). It's very stressful - but as I say, a very good pain relief.

Ask about the Baytril as an alt AB though - esp if her Jan infection was UTI and baytril worked (and did not have an adverse effect on her gut). If it's a co-trim-resistant infection that is sensitive to Baytril you should know very quickly, within 1-3 days. Check that with your vet... because if she's no better after 3 days then stopping that course early shouldn't make any difference one way or another. It won't affect your potentially using gabapentin. Feel free to show them this and ask if I'm talking b*ll*cks - I can take it

 

[Piggies2023]

George was prescribed gabapentin when he was about 950g at 0.1ml twice a day BUT with an important proviso...

I didn't want to put George on this long term but just to cover the odd day or so. I got this in February after he'd had his stone removed and then formed the next one within a few weeks. I knew then that further surgery would be pointless so trying to plan longer term. Gabapentin is something they become dependant on so the vet I spoke to said that if I wanted to dose him for, say, 5 days at twice a day I shouldn't then just stop it suddenly but should wean him off. I actually just used it for the odd day here or there on top of his metacam - occasionally twice a day - but not more than that, so that wasn't an issue.

It was more planning for the future in case he came to his natural end and had pain from the stone. What actually happened was that he was OK for quite a few weeks then seemed to be increasingly in pain in March and it turned out that he'd got another UTI so although the gabapentin helped it didn't improve his situation at that point and he got worse until he started his AB (which did act very quickly, within the first 24h). Sadly after a week on his antibiotics (with support feeding and probiotics) he started to wobble weakly when he walked so I stopped the AB but we couldn't get his eating back on track. He died less than a week later although thank heaven his peeing pain did not return in that time. Small mercies.

So the questions to ask the vet are about dose, about frequency of dose and about dependency. Also about any possible side effects. Meds can sometimes be calculated as mgs per kg of pig in 24 hours so for some meds people might have one full dose once a day, or 2 x 1/2 that dose every 12 hours if you see what I mean. So ask about once a day versus morning and evening etc. If you have to put Nancy on this it's not just that it's 'stronger' than metacam - I think it also acts in a different way so a combination of the two can help tackle the pain.

It's gentler than the buprenorphine: an opioid painkiller sometimes used in piggies - that may be what you had by injection. This is a very effective pain relief but when my pigs have had it they've been stoned out of their gourd and have stopped eating for several hours until it wore off. George got a double dose when he was sent home after his stone op and while I was grateful for the pain relief it was very hard on him. He crawled into his snuggle sack and stayed very still. Ivy just stood and rocked as she was peeing out her stone/sludge (whatever it was that had lit up on her x-ray). It's very stressful - but as I say, a very good pain relief.

Ask about the Baytril as an alt AB though - esp if her Jan infection was UTI and baytril worked (and did not have an adverse effect on her gut). If it's a co-trim-resistant infection that is sensitive to Baytril you should know very quickly, within 1-3 days. Check that with your vet... because if she's no better after 3 days then stopping that course early shouldn't make any difference one way or another. It won't affect your potentially using gabapentin. Feel free to show them this and ask if I'm talking b*ll*cks - I can take it

Thank you. That's some really useful information I didn't know it was addictive.


Nancy is currently covered in urine. But where she's sitting is dry. I think maybe it's a stone lodged. The vet really over prodded her bladder to try and get a wee sample, wayyy much more than my usual vet so i don't know if she's made it worse. Nancy absolutely stinks. I think because she's covered in wee. I'm having to hand feed her food currently as she's not awake enough to function from the injection.

I asked about baytril today, they said that the urine showed bacteria but again they thought it was from a non sterile container. Maybe I should ask again. I do think it may be a stone though.

 

[Free Ranger]

You can have more than one thing - seriously you can - it's not that unusual. One of my vets told me that debris from an infection can make a 'nexus' for a stone - that's a centre which rapidly forms the rest, a bit like rolling a snowball down a hill. Some bacteria raise the pH of urine making calcium carbonate (the limescale stuff) drop out of solution. And carrying a stone in an uninfected bladder can eventually lead to an infection because the stone can prevent the bladder from emptying efficiently and getting a good flush going. She may or may not have a stone. She may or may not have a UTI. At a push, she may or may not have IC problems (it's not so common) or cysts complications. But none of these preclude the other options. Stones are common, UTI is common, you can easily have both as each makes the other more likely. George was prodded by an overly thorough vet when we got the gabapentin. In truth he was never quite as comfortable after that and for a few days was very uncomfortable. Smelly wee isn't a sign of a stone though... when George got his March UTI he smelt of fish - and nasty rank fish at that.

 

[Piggies2023]

You can have more than one thing - seriously you can - it's not that unusual. One of my vets told me that debris from an infection can make a 'nexus' for a stone - that's a centre which rapidly forms the rest, a bit like rolling a snowball down a hill. Some bacteria raise the pH of urine making calcium carbonate (the limescale stuff) drop out of solution. And carrying a stone in an uninfected bladder can eventually lead to an infection because the stone can prevent the bladder from emptying efficiently and getting a good flush going. She may or may not have a stone. She may or may not have a UTI. At a push, she may or may not have IC problems (it's not so common) or cysts complications. But none of these preclude the other options. Stones are common, UTI is common, you can easily have both as each makes the other more likely. George was prodded by an overly thorough vet when we got the gabapentin. In truth he was never quite as comfortable after that and for a few days was very uncomfortable. Smelly wee isn't a sign of a stone though... when George got his March UTI he smelt of fish - and nasty rank fish at that.

I'm not happy with how much she prodded her, she was desperate for her to have a wee out, but she hardly had any to give. I had to tell her to stop but I feel by the time I had it was a bit late. I hope she's not done any long term damage .


She absolutely stinks but I think it's because she's covered in it. I'm going to ring the vets tomorrow so I will ask about baytril again then. She has smelt of fish in the past. I thought she smelt of fish this evening and my mum agreed but now it's just an extremely strong urine smell but she is soaking wet underneath.
I feel bad. I took her to the vets because she was in so much pain and they've mad it significantly worse. Annoyed.

 

[Free Ranger]

It's a bit late in the day (literally) but have you thought of giving her underneath a little rinse in warm water? A strong ammonia smell (that eye-watering pong) can be old pee that's dried on getting wet again and breaking down. But maybe it's too late tonight if she's tired, and you can take of the worst with a bit of damp cotton wool or a damp flannel...

Vets are taught a routine of getting a urine sample - testing - if positive give AB. It avoids AB being overprescribed... but all that takes time. Piggy hurts now. It is a very difficult call - and some pigs react very badly to AB (most don't!) so it's not a harmless gamble from the vet's point of view. When I bought George out of the new, pokey finger vets with his gabapentin I cried a lot of the way home. He'd wailed and wailed while being examined and I felt like a traitor. But this vet didn't know us and G is a controlled substance so he had to be sure George really did have a big stone. George was comforted by a heat pad, or a warm hot water bottle wrapped firmly in a towel (they nibble rubber) perhaps it will help Nancy will feel a little better? She's a brave girl x

 

[Piggies2023]

It's a bit late in the day (literally) but have you thought of giving her underneath a little rinse in warm water? A strong ammonia smell (that eye-watering pong) can be old pee that's dried on getting wet again and breaking down. But maybe it's too late tonight if she's tired, and you can take of the worst with a bit of damp cotton wool or a damp flannel...

Vets are taught a routine of getting a urine sample - testing - if positive give AB. It avoids AB being overprescribed... but all that takes time. Piggy hurts now. It is a very difficult call - and some pigs react very badly to AB (most don't!) so it's not a harmless gamble from the vet's point of view. When I bought George out of the new, pokey finger vets with his gabapentin I cried a lot of the way home. He'd wailed and wailed while being examined and I felt like a traitor. But this vet didn't know us and G is a controlled substance so he had to be sure George really did have a big stone. George was comforted by a heat pad, or a warm hot water bottle wrapped firmly in a towel (they nibble rubber) perhaps it will help Nancy will feel a little better? She's a brave girl x

I had thought about giving her a bath but she's not with it still. She is still doped, and isn't shutting her eyes, they look sore. She does however, react very strongly to me touching her belly or at times picking her up, I think it's painful for her. I will see how she is tomorrow. I'm concerned about shocking her.

 

[Free Ranger]

Yes - she's probably very tired after her big day. As are you I bet. I dipped a finger in water and touched it to George's lips to wet them rather than syringing any fluids. If you gently stroke her cheek she might respond by closing that eye a little and lubricating it. I'm off to bed now - I hope you can both get a little sleep x

 

[piggiemummy03x]

How is Della?

Can I ask how much gabapentin and how big she is? I'm asking a vet tomorrow for it. I've got a dosage from online piggie vet. It's awful hearing them cry. I had a near miss today with Nancy, a non guinea pig savvy vet gave her very powerful pain killer injection and it didn't go well.


Does Della cry when she poos? Nancy cries when pooing and at random times.

hiya, ah della is very up and down.. saturday, sunday there was no cries (that we heard at all) she also stopped leaking! we stopped the gabapentin on the friday so i was really happy.. come monday it started again she had definitely gotten better as it hasn’t been every time she wees like before but obviously shes still doing it so not completely sorted. our vet has agreed to carry on and complete the full course and then go from there with next options (probably an Xray) since monday shes been on / off crying and leaking every day, with a little bit of redness in wee on wednesday.
we have today and tomorrow (am) left of her baytril course then booked in for wednesday next week.

i’m pretty sure it was 0.09ml 2xs a day, della weighs just under 1000g (around 970g to be more precise)

oh my gosh! i’m so sorry to hear that i would br absolutely furious! how is nancy doing now bless her?!

she has cried while pooing during this ‘illness’ but have only noticed it a few times. the last time being yesterday, she had a wee with no crying then at the end had a poo with a little squeak but not like she does when weeing, thats more of a cry.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Thank you. That's some really useful information I didn't know it was addictive.


Nancy is currently covered in urine. But where she's sitting is dry. I think maybe it's a stone lodged. The vet really over prodded her bladder to try and get a wee sample, wayyy much more than my usual vet so i don't know if she's made it worse. Nancy absolutely stinks. I think because she's covered in wee. I'm having to hand feed her food currently as she's not awake enough to function from the injection.

I asked about baytril today, they said that the urine showed bacteria but again they thought it was from a non sterile container. Maybe I should ask again. I do think it may be a stone though.

bless her! della has a ‘dirty bum’ but its more wee stains than sopping wet as it seems nancy is? della ‘leaks’ when i pick her up though.

i’m so sorry to hear about nancys horrible vet trip, please give her a cuddle from me!

 

[Piggies2023]

bless her! della has a ‘dirty bum’ but its more wee stains than sopping wet as it seems nancy is? della ‘leaks’ when i pick her up though.

i’m so sorry to hear about nancys horrible vet trip, please give her a cuddle from me!

Thank you.

Has Della had an x-ray before? I've read through the thread before but I'm so tired from syringe feeding I can't remember.

She was given 1ml of buprenorphine. Which I think is quite a lot for a piggie. She's starting to be more alert now though.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Thank you.

Has Della had an x-ray before? I've read through the thread before but I'm so tired from syringe feeding I can't remember.

She was given 1ml of buprenorphine. Which I think is quite a lot for a piggie. She's starting to be more alert now though.

hiya, yes she has, della has actually had 2! the first one at only around 13 weeks old (if i’m remembering correctly) where a stone was found but luckily we managed to get it out with a bladder flush.. the second being back in march this year.. no stones showed but there was a bit of sludge. i’ve never heard of that one but glad she is more alert!

 

[Piggies2023]

Oh bless her. 13 weeks so early to get a stone, definitely sounds genetic. Shame there isn't an easier way to identify stones. Nancy had an x-ray too but wondering if some has developed since.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Oh bless her. 13 weeks so early to get a stone, definitely sounds genetic. Shame there isn't an easier way to identify stones. Nancy had an x-ray too but wondering if some has developed since.

i know, it was such a shock our vet said she was the youngest she’d seen with a stone, exotic vet too i know, theres so much to think about.. the worry of aesthetic, the possibility of her loosing her appetite again and having to feed critical care.. it all just scares the absolute sh*t out of me! not only that but the stress it puts on them.. it’s horrible, and the worst thing is they can go through all that and sometimes the xrays miss them when was nancys last xray? i have heard stories / spoke to parents of piggies that have had stones develop in a matter of weeks

 

[Piggies2023]

i know, it was such a shock our vet said she was the youngest she’d seen with a stone, exotic vet too i know, theres so much to think about.. the worry of aesthetic, the possibility of her loosing her appetite again and having to feed critical care.. it all just scares the absolute sh*t out of me! not only that but the stress it puts on them.. it’s horrible, and the worst thing is they can go through all that and sometimes the xrays miss them when was nancys last xray? i have heard stories / spoke to parents of piggies that have had stones develop in a matter of weeks

It's a hard decision to make. But when you know they are in pain you end up having to.

Nancy's was a month ago now. I was fully expecting to see a stone so when there wasn't I was surprised.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

It's a hard decision to make. But when you know they are in pain you end up having to.

Nancy's was a month ago now. I was fully expecting to see a stone so when there wasn't I was surprised.

1000%

bless her, did they take multiple shots in different positions? how did she recover?

 

[Piggies2023]

1000%

bless her, did they take multiple shots in different positions? how did she recover?

I'm not sure. I need to ask. She recovered fine. I can only assume she was given a different drug to the one she was last operated on. She never regained the weight she lost from not eating for hours at the vets though.

You know I'm wondering if the cystease does more harm than good. I can't get her to take it without forcing her. So if IC is stress based.. I'm just adding stress. She's weeing more blood than usual and I'm thinking... Stress from being syringe fed. I can't get her to take cystease any other way

 

[piggiemummy03x]

I'm not sure. I need to ask. She recovered fine. I can only assume she was given a different drug to the one she was last operated on. She never regained the weight she lost from not eating for hours at the vets though.

You know I'm wondering if the cystease does more harm than good. I can't get her to take it without forcing her. So if IC is stress based.. I'm just adding stress. She's weeing more blood than usual and I'm thinking... Stress from being syringe fed. I can't get her to take cystease any other way

bless her. our della stopped eating after her last xray, we had to critical care feed her for weeks it was so stressful. think it was the mix of abs and anaesthetic because shes on baytril again now with, touch wood, no problem.

oh yes thats not good i have never syringed cystease, i wet little cubes of veggies and pour it on top sort of rubbing it in with other veggies then hand feed. never had a problem doing it this way and della doesn’t seem to notice the filmy layer of it on it, could you maybe try giving it this way?

 

[Piggies2023]

bless her. our della stopped eating after her last xray, we had to critical care feed her for weeks it was so stressful. think it was the mix of abs and anaesthetic because shes on baytril again now with, touch wood, no problem.

oh yes thats not good i have never syringed cystease, i wet little cubes of veggies and pour it on top sort of rubbing it in with other veggies then hand feed. never had a problem doing it this way and della doesn’t seem to notice the filmy layer of it on it, could you maybe try giving it this way?

Nancy refuses to eat it, and I can understand why because if I put water on it is smells fishy. Do you know what brand of cystease the vet gives you? Mine says it's catease.

 

[Piggies2023]

I wonder if my vet uses something else for sedation. As that didn't happen to my little one but happened when she was given the pain meds recently which they do sometimes use in surgery. It maybe worth asking what they used last time.

 

[piggiemummy03x]

Nancy refuses to eat it, and I can understand why because if I put water on it is smells fishy. Do you know what brand of cystease the vet gives you? Mine says it's catease.

how strange.. ours doesn’t smell at all! i buy ours, its this one

 

[LunaticPoodle]

I use this one, as Cystease isn't available in Finland. Maybe piggies smell slight differences that we don't, who knows. They're both the same anyway.

 

[Free Ranger]

Have you asked your vets whether they can x-ray without anaesthetic? Mine just wrap piggies tightly in a towel. We've also seen some posts where piggies have just been sat in a little box to x-ray... it's worth asking.