piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
oh gosh that really is awful, please keep is updated, i really hope something can be done for your little man. you are doing everything you can please remember that you are an amazing piggie parent
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Bladder sludge
- Thread starter piggiemummy03x
- Start date
Mclayton
Junior Guinea Pig
That means alot, thankyou ❤ after nearly 4 days ok,, he's having a flareoh gosh that really is awful, please keep is updated, i really hope something can be done for your little man. you are doing everything you can please remember that you are an amazing piggie parent
LunaticPoodle
Forum Donator 2023/24
hi guys, just want to say that I support you and that you're being great piggy parents trying to do everything possible to help your little guys. I'm so sorry. I'll write everything we tried in hope it helps you.
The symptoms for all the urinary tract stuff are all pretty similar as far as I know, and since diet and cleanliness are already right there's not much else you can do aside of providing pain management and keep an eye on them. I understand your frustration. As many others with bladder piggies I've been fighting the fight for over a year now, and I wish it will be different for you with all my heart. Blood especially makes me think of stones first, and they can
hide even with an x-ray, that's why it's important to take them from different angles so the vet can see them.
If those are excluded, then checking for an infection with a pee test, and their kidney function through a blood test is next. Diabetes Mellitus could also be causing this, and needs a blood test to be diagnosed.
My vet also agrees that the lack of sunlight encourages stones forming and had suggested getting an Uv lamp, but if you do that, make sure to read about it as it shouldn't be too close and burn them or make them too hot and unable to move away, and too far and it won't do much. I don't know if you'd really need that in the UK, here we have long months with almost no sunlight so it's different. Even piggies who can go outside get stones though, so that might not help after all.
Fluid therapy did Geezer some good, but we only managed to have one session.
Now the painful bits: if they don't pee them out, stones need to be taken out through surgery, unless they're in the kidneys (then surgery isn't possible). In girls they can be expertly manipulates out sometimes, in boys they can't. Blockages are very painful and they are life threatening, I'm sorry to be blunt. A piggy with a blockage is in major pain and needs to be operated or put to sleep. Unfortunately, Geezer got his second blockage in the middle of the night and no ER vet was capable of operating a guinea pig, and by morning it was too late and he had to be pts.
Pain killers including metacam will, in the long run, do some damage, but many people on the forum had their piggies on lifelong medication and while it may have shortened their life a bit, it certainly kept them comfortable and I think that's the most important thing. As long as your piggies are happy and pain-free, and show you they want to live, and play, and do piggy things, just let them have their pain meds.
Now for the glucosamine: with IC and a scratched bladder it really helps. I'd stick to what has been suggested on this forum to up it to 2 capsules during flare ups (one mornings, one evenings) and one (half in the morning, half in the evening) on less intense days. Rutto is still waiting for surgery, but it does make him more comfortable when he has blood.
Basically, after an infection is defeated and all the bacteria gone, and glucosamine repaired the bladder wall, it makes it harder for the bacteria to stick into the scratched walls and cause problems.
Too much Vitamin C encourages stone formation, and as it's been mentioned, piggies on a good diet don't need supplements.
Even with all of the testing, the meds, the right diet, the supplements, spotless cages, disinfected water bottles and bowls, clean floors, sunlight, and the insane vet bills (mine come close to 4000 € with all the medication since Jan 2022) piggies can still get sick. Forgive yourselves cos it's not in your power to change this. Your piggies know they're loved, and as long as they're happy, you're doing right by them. Best wishes to Della and Squeak
The symptoms for all the urinary tract stuff are all pretty similar as far as I know, and since diet and cleanliness are already right there's not much else you can do aside of providing pain management and keep an eye on them. I understand your frustration. As many others with bladder piggies I've been fighting the fight for over a year now, and I wish it will be different for you with all my heart. Blood especially makes me think of stones first, and they can
hide even with an x-ray, that's why it's important to take them from different angles so the vet can see them.
If those are excluded, then checking for an infection with a pee test, and their kidney function through a blood test is next. Diabetes Mellitus could also be causing this, and needs a blood test to be diagnosed.
My vet also agrees that the lack of sunlight encourages stones forming and had suggested getting an Uv lamp, but if you do that, make sure to read about it as it shouldn't be too close and burn them or make them too hot and unable to move away, and too far and it won't do much. I don't know if you'd really need that in the UK, here we have long months with almost no sunlight so it's different. Even piggies who can go outside get stones though, so that might not help after all.
Fluid therapy did Geezer some good, but we only managed to have one session.
Now the painful bits: if they don't pee them out, stones need to be taken out through surgery, unless they're in the kidneys (then surgery isn't possible). In girls they can be expertly manipulates out sometimes, in boys they can't. Blockages are very painful and they are life threatening, I'm sorry to be blunt. A piggy with a blockage is in major pain and needs to be operated or put to sleep. Unfortunately, Geezer got his second blockage in the middle of the night and no ER vet was capable of operating a guinea pig, and by morning it was too late and he had to be pts.
Pain killers including metacam will, in the long run, do some damage, but many people on the forum had their piggies on lifelong medication and while it may have shortened their life a bit, it certainly kept them comfortable and I think that's the most important thing. As long as your piggies are happy and pain-free, and show you they want to live, and play, and do piggy things, just let them have their pain meds.
Now for the glucosamine: with IC and a scratched bladder it really helps. I'd stick to what has been suggested on this forum to up it to 2 capsules during flare ups (one mornings, one evenings) and one (half in the morning, half in the evening) on less intense days. Rutto is still waiting for surgery, but it does make him more comfortable when he has blood.
Basically, after an infection is defeated and all the bacteria gone, and glucosamine repaired the bladder wall, it makes it harder for the bacteria to stick into the scratched walls and cause problems.
Too much Vitamin C encourages stone formation, and as it's been mentioned, piggies on a good diet don't need supplements.
Even with all of the testing, the meds, the right diet, the supplements, spotless cages, disinfected water bottles and bowls, clean floors, sunlight, and the insane vet bills (mine come close to 4000 € with all the medication since Jan 2022) piggies can still get sick. Forgive yourselves cos it's not in your power to change this. Your piggies know they're loved, and as long as they're happy, you're doing right by them. Best wishes to Della and Squeak
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
update on my della.. written as a new post so if anyone wants to read all information is in one section…
hi everyone! apologies for the lengthy post, i have tried to give as much information as possible as i am looking for some advice/experience, i just hope I’ve not missed anything!
so my girl della has been on ABs now since friday 21st april for a suspected UTI. her symptoms (which started on the 19th april) where crying while urinating, urinating more often, bits pulsing / straining, wet / messy bum and leaking (like on my hand when i picked her up).
originally she was prescribed co - trimoxazole, 0.2ml twice daily, along side metacam (0.3ml twice daily) for 7 days and gabapentin (0.09ml twice daily) for a couple of days, or until she appeared out of pain.
we stopped the gabapentin on the sunday (so 3 days of it) the morning dose being the last one as her cries had stopped and things seemed to be getting better. for the next couple of days things where good, crying had stopped, so had the leaking and we where feeling positive. come the 25th though (day 5 of co-trimoxazole) we noticed red marks on the girls fleece where della had obviously been wiping herself, later that evening red was sprayed over the floor (she likes to spray her sister when she’s been pushed too much lol!) and the cries had returned with red wee
we started back up the gabapentin and booked in a phone call from our guinea vet for the 27th. the next few days there where some times della would go to the toilet with no crying or any what seemed any pain, then others where she would cry and strain herself.
27th we spoke to the vet (day 7 of week course) and we agreed to continue in the course for a further week incase it was just a stubborn UTI that needed longer treatment. the fact a few days in it started to make a difference i was hopeful it was just a UTI, but a little confused / concerned as to why it seemed to stop helping after them days.
we where also considering the possibility of a IC flare up (not diagnosed) as the girls seemed to be coming into season and we have noticed that every time they do, della would seem to have a couple of days of squeaky wees that we treat with metacam and then she would be fine.
27th april - 6th may was a mixture of wees with and without crying, poos with and without crying and leaking / slight mucky bum. i tracked each time i saw / heard della go, there doesn’t seem to be any pattern or anything i can identify as to what may have made it worse sometimes and better others, it’s completely random!
6th may we had another vets appointment, della was then prescribed baytril 0.3ml x2 a day for 2 weeks, incase there was stubborn bacteria not being killed of by the co-trimoxazole, metacam for 2 weeks even if crying had stopped (due to it being an anti inflammatory) and gabapentin until della seemed no longer in pain. our vet warned us that if the baytril didn’t make a difference within a week, we would be best to book della in for xrays once again to just insure it wasn’t stones / sludge that was causing the problem.
6th - 10th may, the baytril definitely seemed to have made a difference, there was definitely less crying overall but again a mix of crying while weeing and then some wees no crying (sometimes this would be within minutes of eachother, sometimes multiple good wees in a row or the other way round, then the opposite) some days leaky, other days not.
we spoke to the vet again on the 11th (friday) who said because we had seem some improvement with della being on the baytril, we can carry on with the 2 week course, if over the weekend things worsened we are taking her back on tuesday to discuss getting her in for xrays. if there is more improvement, we are pushing the appointment back by a week to see how she is after the full 2 week course.
since speaking to the vet, della has had a mix of squeaky / no squeaky wees and yesterday i have noticed a bit of straining once again.
so far this morning i’ve not heard any crying but this doesn’t mean there won’t be unfortunately.
we are so worried for our baby and really hope its just an extremely stubborn UTI, i just want to be prepared if it is something more serious…
i wonder if anyone has similar experiences and if you could share with me what it was in the end causing the problem?
does this sound like it could just be a UTI or is it most probably something more?
do utis / IC / bladder stones all have the same symptoms or is there normally a way to establish one from another, maybe another symptom that is common with one but not the other two?
if della did have IC, could this be the reason why it seems to worsen and then suddenly get better?
we know with dellas past that obviously she is predisposed to bladder problems and are aware this may be the ‘norm’ for her throughout her life, i just want to check that its not cruel / something to worry about or anything to have a pig on ABs / pain meds for lots of time in their life? she can live a happy life and won’t be resentful towards me? i can’t imagine the idea of doing anything else.. i can’t even bring myself to type it but i just want to make sure this is fair, other than her bladder problems she is such a funny, cheeky little monkey that does seem to love life (and lots of yummy food!) i just want her to have the best quality life we can possibly give her
we are at a complete loss as to what to think, of course i will keep you all updated on our little monkey, we are just hoping and praying she’ll improve over the weekend and it is just a nasty UTI, but only time will tell.
I'm going through something similar and it's awful. My guinea pigs are in my bedroom and hearing Nancy squeak in pain is awful. Particularly overnight is the worst but now it's becoming more and more frequent. She's already had an x-ray three weeks ago and is on glucasomine but it doesn't seem to be helping.
I would get an x-ray for your little one to check it's not a bladder stone. I'm considering asking to repeat it for mine.
Mclayton
Junior Guinea Pig
Thank youhi guys, just want to say that I support you and that you're being great piggy parents trying to do everything possible to help your little guys. I'm so sorry. I'll write everything we tried in hope it helps you.
The symptoms for all the urinary tract stuff are all pretty similar as far as I know, and since diet and cleanliness are already right there's not much else you can do aside of providing pain management and keep an eye on them. I understand your frustration. As many others with bladder piggies I've been fighting the fight for over a year now, and I wish it will be different for you with all my heart. Blood especially makes me think of stones first, and they can
hide even with an x-ray, that's why it's important to take them from different angles so the vet can see them.
If those are excluded, then checking for an infection with a pee test, and their kidney function through a blood test is next. Diabetes Mellitus could also be causing this, and needs a blood test to be diagnosed.
My vet also agrees that the lack of sunlight encourages stones forming and had suggested getting an Uv lamp, but if you do that, make sure to read about it as it shouldn't be too close and burn them or make them too hot and unable to move away, and too far and it won't do much. I don't know if you'd really need that in the UK, here we have long months with almost no sunlight so it's different. Even piggies who can go outside get stones though, so that might not help after all.
Fluid therapy did Geezer some good, but we only managed to have one session.
Now the painful bits: if they don't pee them out, stones need to be taken out through surgery, unless they're in the kidneys (then surgery isn't possible). In girls they can be expertly manipulates out sometimes, in boys they can't. Blockages are very painful and they are life threatening, I'm sorry to be blunt. A piggy with a blockage is in major pain and needs to be operated or put to sleep. Unfortunately, Geezer got his second blockage in the middle of the night and no ER vet was capable of operating a guinea pig, and by morning it was too late and he had to be pts.
Pain killers including metacam will, in the long run, do some damage, but many people on the forum had their piggies on lifelong medication and while it may have shortened their life a bit, it certainly kept them comfortable and I think that's the most important thing. As long as your piggies are happy and pain-free, and show you they want to live, and play, and do piggy things, just let them have their pain meds.
Now for the glucosamine: with IC and a scratched bladder it really helps. I'd stick to what has been suggested on this forum to up it to 2 capsules during flare ups (one mornings, one evenings) and one (half in the morning, half in the evening) on less intense days. Rutto is still waiting for surgery, but it does make him more comfortable when he has blood.
Basically, after an infection is defeated and all the bacteria gone, and glucosamine repaired the bladder wall, it makes it harder for the bacteria to stick into the scratched walls and cause problems.
Too much Vitamin C encourages stone formation, and as it's been mentioned, piggies on a good diet don't need supplements.
Even with all of the testing, the meds, the right diet, the supplements, spotless cages, disinfected water bottles and bowls, clean floors, sunlight, and the insane vet bills (mine come close to 4000 € with all the medication since Jan 2022) piggies can still get sick. Forgive yourselves cos it's not in your power to change this. Your piggies know they're loved, and as long as they're happy, you're doing right by them. Best wishes to Della and Squeak
LunaticPoodle
Forum Donator 2023/24
Hi Lucy, is Nancy on pain medications in addition to the glucosamine? I forgot to mention, but it's been clear from all the prescriptions people have mentioned here and elsewhere, that piggies react better with combined pain medication, for example Meloxicam and another (Gabapentin or Tramadol or something else) on an alternating schedule. Get well soon Nancy
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
She's on metacam dog 0.4ml twice a day. My vet isn't in for another week. So I'm really panicking. It's awful.Hi Lucy, is Nancy on pain medications in addition to the glucosamine? I forgot to mention, but it's been clear from all the prescriptions people have mentioned here and elsewhere, that piggies react better with combined pain medication, for example Meloxicam and another (Gabapentin or Tramadol or something else) on an alternating schedule. Get well soon Nancy
LunaticPoodle
Forum Donator 2023/24
I'm sorry. If the pain is very bad, can you ask a different vet to give you an additional painkiller to give Nancy between her Metacam doses, at least on the bad days?
piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
oh bless him i’m sorry to hear thatThat means alot, thankyou ❤ after nearly 4 days ok,, he's having a flare
piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
thanks so much for all this info!hi guys, just want to say that I support you and that you're being great piggy parents trying to do everything possible to help your little guys. I'm so sorry. I'll write everything we tried in hope it helps you.
The symptoms for all the urinary tract stuff are all pretty similar as far as I know, and since diet and cleanliness are already right there's not much else you can do aside of providing pain management and keep an eye on them. I understand your frustration. As many others with bladder piggies I've been fighting the fight for over a year now, and I wish it will be different for you with all my heart. Blood especially makes me think of stones first, and they can
hide even with an x-ray, that's why it's important to take them from different angles so the vet can see them.
If those are excluded, then checking for an infection with a pee test, and their kidney function through a blood test is next. Diabetes Mellitus could also be causing this, and needs a blood test to be diagnosed.
My vet also agrees that the lack of sunlight encourages stones forming and had suggested getting an Uv lamp, but if you do that, make sure to read about it as it shouldn't be too close and burn them or make them too hot and unable to move away, and too far and it won't do much. I don't know if you'd really need that in the UK, here we have long months with almost no sunlight so it's different. Even piggies who can go outside get stones though, so that might not help after all.
Fluid therapy did Geezer some good, but we only managed to have one session.
Now the painful bits: if they don't pee them out, stones need to be taken out through surgery, unless they're in the kidneys (then surgery isn't possible). In girls they can be expertly manipulates out sometimes, in boys they can't. Blockages are very painful and they are life threatening, I'm sorry to be blunt. A piggy with a blockage is in major pain and needs to be operated or put to sleep. Unfortunately, Geezer got his second blockage in the middle of the night and no ER vet was capable of operating a guinea pig, and by morning it was too late and he had to be pts.
Pain killers including metacam will, in the long run, do some damage, but many people on the forum had their piggies on lifelong medication and while it may have shortened their life a bit, it certainly kept them comfortable and I think that's the most important thing. As long as your piggies are happy and pain-free, and show you they want to live, and play, and do piggy things, just let them have their pain meds.
Now for the glucosamine: with IC and a scratched bladder it really helps. I'd stick to what has been suggested on this forum to up it to 2 capsules during flare ups (one mornings, one evenings) and one (half in the morning, half in the evening) on less intense days. Rutto is still waiting for surgery, but it does make him more comfortable when he has blood.
Basically, after an infection is defeated and all the bacteria gone, and glucosamine repaired the bladder wall, it makes it harder for the bacteria to stick into the scratched walls and cause problems.
Too much Vitamin C encourages stone formation, and as it's been mentioned, piggies on a good diet don't need supplements.
Even with all of the testing, the meds, the right diet, the supplements, spotless cages, disinfected water bottles and bowls, clean floors, sunlight, and the insane vet bills (mine come close to 4000 € with all the medication since Jan 2022) piggies can still get sick. Forgive yourselves cos it's not in your power to change this. Your piggies know they're loved, and as long as they're happy, you're doing right by them. Best wishes to Della and Squeak
wow i didn’t realise about the lack of sunlight.. that is so interesting and makes me feel so bad
i really appreciate all you’ve said and will make note of it, again i’m so sorry about your geezer and sending prays to rutto
piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
i’m sorry to hear your nancy is struggling.. what did the xray show?
yes we are getting a xray booked in if this last week of ABs don’t make improvements!
piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
my della had been on gabapentin and metacam but still having wees where shes cryingHi Lucy, is Nancy on pain medications in addition to the glucosamine? I forgot to mention, but it's been clear from all the prescriptions people have mentioned here and elsewhere, that piggies react better with combined pain medication, for example Meloxicam and another (Gabapentin or Tramadol or something else) on an alternating schedule. Get well soon Nancy
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
The x-ray didn't show anything. But I'm suspicious it may have missed a stone. Though her urine showed crystals.
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
I may have to do that. I'm wary of seeing a non piggie vet though. We either had a big of a better night last night or I was completely exhausted and slept through her cries. Maybe just exhausted as I also missed my alarm .
LunaticPoodle
Forum Donator 2023/24
They usually have ways of consulting with colleagues. If you end up having to see an emergency vet who doesn't usually see piggies and they give her an injection, ask them to please give her some pain relief on her skin beforehand, and make sure they give you motility drugs to take home in case she doesn't react well, especially with opiates as they slow down their digestive system.
Do you know if they took the x-ray both from the top and from the sides?
LunaticPoodle
Forum Donator 2023/24
No worries, I just come from a year and (almost) a half of this so I'm glad if it can help someone else. A lot of people have piggies who can go to the garden and still get stones though, so at some point if their genes are what they are, there's only so much we can do. Geezer I think was somewhat inbred as his previous owners had surprise babies, Rutto and his brother I got as adults from a lady whose husband was very allergic to hay, but I'm guessing they came from a pet store. His brother has no bladder issues, so it's all about how sensitive the individual piggy is to these things in the end.thanks so much for all this info!
wow i didn’t realise about the lack of sunlight.. that is so interesting and makes me feel so bad
i really appreciate all you’ve said and will make note of it, again i’m so sorry about your geezer and sending prays to rutto
Thank you xx
T&A
Junior Guinea Pig
Hi! I’ve just had an awful vet-visit filled week too. My guinea pig was on antibiotics and metacam pain relief for a suspected UTI and it ended up being a stone. I was told boars cannot pass stones but he somehow managed. It was a miracle! But if your guinea pig cannot pass his it must be quite uncomfortable. My vet, (i go to medivet in the UK) was going to refer me to the Royal Veterinary College if she couldn’t operate on him. (She sedated him and just before operating found out there was no stone anymore!) i would ask your vet to refer you to a guinea pig savvy vet if possible to help you but for starters, see if your vet would allow for an increased dosage of pain relief, or see about injections. I’m here if you have any questions 
Free Ranger
Forum Donator 2023/24
I'm so very sorry for all you are going through. @Lucy3733 if your Nancy cries when she pees every time and is peeing more often than usual in little dribbles rather than a big flush make sure that infection is definitely ruled out. Infection will continually agitate the bladder and not give her a break so peeing will hurt most of the time. How is she in herself? Is she subdued, or active and normal between pees? When they have an infection they feel ropey generally and will hide away more. Vets can test temperature with a small thermometer up the bum (only takes 10 seconds or so) although it's not always conclusive. Sometimes an infection is resistant to an antibiotic and you need to try an alternative, sometimes the AB works but the course isn't long enough so the pain returns a few days after the AB is stopped.
@Mclayton your boy's intermittent painful squeaking and straining to pee did seem to agree with the fact that your vet diagnosed crystals and potential sludgey deposits because he seemed to be OK for the rest of the time with non-painful pees. Passing 'thick' urine containing pointy solid bits would be painful - but once the crystals/sludge has passed the next pees sound like they are much more normal. @piggiemummy03x this might be something to consider for Della's vet. Can they do a microscopic exam of her urine to check for crystals or sludge? @Lucy3733 if Nancy has crystals it doesn't mean she can't have a UTI too.
I think it's quite possible that sometimes a stone can sit around in the bladder without notice, although of course we can't know how common these are as healthy pigs don't get bladder scans. A stone in the ureter is a difficult diagnosis - piggies can actually manage with only one kidney but even if you were a millionaire and found a vet who could do this sort of op safely there's no guarantee he wouldn't form another stone anyway. This stone might be a bit of a time bomb but if you think about his symptoms at the moment - it hurts him to pee (some of the time) and he seems OK in between bouts - I'd think the peeing pain would be his main issue. The ureter stone is there all the time but does it bother him... not yet enough to stop him being an active piggy or to make him start losing weight. It's going to be a day-by-day thing I think.
@LunaticPoodle your answer was the voice of experience and I'm so sorry you've ended up knowing so much about these things. I wonder whether vets in Finland see more stone pigs coming in the long dark winters than in the summers. Mind you, I bet owners don't necessarily spot what's happening straight away anyway. The glucosamine is very useful - George couldn't take the cystease capsules (it upset his tum) but he was on a decent dose anyway with the oxbow joint support biscuits for arthritis.
If there was any advantage to George's big round bladder stone (and then his next big round bladder stone) was that it seemed to mop up almost all solid calcium deposits in his pee - which was unnervingly clear. He never had an issue with 'sludge'. His stone was, in the end, so huge it had no chance of getting stuck anywhere and so round it didn't dig into anything. On first diagnosis he had painful, blooded pees every 30 minutes, got an exam and an x-ray, and we realised he had a difficult infection as well as a stone. He was in a lot of pain at first - I sat in the vets crying thinking he'd have to be put to sleep. But when we found the right antibiotic to treat his infection he improved a lot. He was so chipper in December, trotting round and eating everything, that I thought he might live for ever and actually decided on his stone op because he looked so well. He squeaked quietly when he peed some of the time - and he had days which were worse than others. But when his infection was raging it was all of the time and very frequent pees and my heart ached for him. Even with a stone like a marble he wasn't peeing every 20-30 mins like with his infection. My vet has an old boy with a decent sized bladder stone and apparently her lad has very few problems with it - he's on painkiller and he gets a pinch of oats for his weight but that's about it, she reckons you wouldn't know he had one a lot of the time. I've had girls with stones but they've managed to pass them before surgery was needed (apart from the one which was extracted with forceps). It's a very tricky thing to be able to say the cause is this rather than that... especially if there might be more than one thing. I'm sure being an IC piggy doesn't make you immune to UTI.
Love to all you piggies out there with painful pees x
@Mclayton your boy's intermittent painful squeaking and straining to pee did seem to agree with the fact that your vet diagnosed crystals and potential sludgey deposits because he seemed to be OK for the rest of the time with non-painful pees. Passing 'thick' urine containing pointy solid bits would be painful - but once the crystals/sludge has passed the next pees sound like they are much more normal. @piggiemummy03x this might be something to consider for Della's vet. Can they do a microscopic exam of her urine to check for crystals or sludge? @Lucy3733 if Nancy has crystals it doesn't mean she can't have a UTI too.
I think it's quite possible that sometimes a stone can sit around in the bladder without notice, although of course we can't know how common these are as healthy pigs don't get bladder scans. A stone in the ureter is a difficult diagnosis - piggies can actually manage with only one kidney but even if you were a millionaire and found a vet who could do this sort of op safely there's no guarantee he wouldn't form another stone anyway. This stone might be a bit of a time bomb but if you think about his symptoms at the moment - it hurts him to pee (some of the time) and he seems OK in between bouts - I'd think the peeing pain would be his main issue. The ureter stone is there all the time but does it bother him... not yet enough to stop him being an active piggy or to make him start losing weight. It's going to be a day-by-day thing I think.
@LunaticPoodle your answer was the voice of experience and I'm so sorry you've ended up knowing so much about these things. I wonder whether vets in Finland see more stone pigs coming in the long dark winters than in the summers. Mind you, I bet owners don't necessarily spot what's happening straight away anyway. The glucosamine is very useful - George couldn't take the cystease capsules (it upset his tum) but he was on a decent dose anyway with the oxbow joint support biscuits for arthritis.
If there was any advantage to George's big round bladder stone (and then his next big round bladder stone) was that it seemed to mop up almost all solid calcium deposits in his pee - which was unnervingly clear. He never had an issue with 'sludge'. His stone was, in the end, so huge it had no chance of getting stuck anywhere and so round it didn't dig into anything. On first diagnosis he had painful, blooded pees every 30 minutes, got an exam and an x-ray, and we realised he had a difficult infection as well as a stone. He was in a lot of pain at first - I sat in the vets crying thinking he'd have to be put to sleep. But when we found the right antibiotic to treat his infection he improved a lot. He was so chipper in December, trotting round and eating everything, that I thought he might live for ever and actually decided on his stone op because he looked so well. He squeaked quietly when he peed some of the time - and he had days which were worse than others. But when his infection was raging it was all of the time and very frequent pees and my heart ached for him. Even with a stone like a marble he wasn't peeing every 20-30 mins like with his infection. My vet has an old boy with a decent sized bladder stone and apparently her lad has very few problems with it - he's on painkiller and he gets a pinch of oats for his weight but that's about it, she reckons you wouldn't know he had one a lot of the time. I've had girls with stones but they've managed to pass them before surgery was needed (apart from the one which was extracted with forceps). It's a very tricky thing to be able to say the cause is this rather than that... especially if there might be more than one thing. I'm sure being an IC piggy doesn't make you immune to UTI.
Love to all you piggies out there with painful pees x
LunaticPoodle
Forum Donator 2023/24
Thank you @Free Ranger I've been reading through this forum like a maniac since I joined and trying to copy what experienced people here did. And it helped my boys a great deal. For example when I first got the piggies 3 years ago I was feeding them waaaaay too much veggies, and then I got to the feeding guide 
My vet is originally from the Czech Republic so I can ask her if there's a difference in how many stones they see here, but my guess is there's not much difference on average, as most people who have piggies also have gardens and they can be outside a lot in summer, and water is extremely clean and soft. We did buy a filter anyway last year but it made no difference really.
To quote my vet again, if we knew why stones form, there would be no piggies with stones.
Love xx
I've been reading through this forum like a maniac since I joined and trying to copy what experienced people here did. And it helped my boys a great deal. For example when I first got the piggies 3 years ago I was feeding them waaaaay too much veggies, and then I got to the feeding guide My vet is originally from the Czech Republic so I can ask her if there's a difference in how many stones they see here, but my guess is there's not much difference on average, as most people who have piggies also have gardens and they can be outside a lot in summer, and water is extremely clean and soft. We did buy a filter anyway last year but it made no difference really.
To quote my vet again, if we knew why stones form, there would be no piggies with stones.
Love xx
Mclayton
Junior Guinea Pig
This is all fine if you can afford it. I can't.Hi! I’ve just had an awful vet-visit filled week too. My guinea pig was on antibiotics and metacam pain relief for a suspected UTI and it ended up being a stone. I was told boars cannot pass stones but he somehow managed. It was a miracle! But if your guinea pig cannot pass his it must be quite uncomfortable. My vet, (i go to medivet in the UK) was going to refer me to the Royal Veterinary College if she couldn’t operate on him. (She sedated him and just before operating found out there was no stone anymore!) i would ask your vet to refer you to a guinea pig savvy vet if possible to help you but for starters, see if your vet would allow for an increased dosage of pain relief, or see about injections. I’m here if you have any questions
I've already seen a exotic vet. It was he thar diagnosed a stone in his ureter
Free Ranger
Forum Donator 2023/24
It's true about the money. It's a very real issue and it's different for everyone. I always think about farmers, who care a great deal about their animals but have to make some very difficult decisions with a clear eye.
The other thing to remember is that our piggies generally don't realise we're trying to help by taking them to the vet and it's not typically a positive experience from their point of view (unless you have one like George who had to go every 3 months when he was basically just a bit stiff to get a gentle fuss-over, more metacam, and a salad on the way home for being brave!) So we might plan a big trip to a new and 'specialised', albeit distant, exotic vet and risk a complicated operation with a risky general anaesthetic and a real chance of the problem recurring afterwards. We do it because we love them and feel it must be 'for the best' because we have a diagnosis and a prognosis and we can think about the future and reason things out. All piggy knows is that he's feeling somewhere between not-great and really-very-poorly and he's taken out of his safe little home (with his friend, if he's lucky) to somewhere he doesn't know at all, and it smells funny, to be poked in his hurty bits by strange hands and sat in a little strange cage. Then he wakes up later and feels rough as anything for quite a long while. He doesn't realise he's ever going to go home again... he might well think that this is his life now. And hopefully, oh-so-hopefully if everything has gone to plan, he can go home again soon and he feels a little better every day afterwards. Maybe in time he'll even forget it all. But generally none of this is a great experience and you can't explain that to them, you can only try and distract them from it all with a bit of salad. They actually don't expect us to be able to do anything for them - their instinct doesn't understand modern medicine. We try because we love them and want to do as much for them to have a happy life as we can. But sometimes the scales have to fall the other way and they don't judge us. We might judge us, but they don't. They're innocent of all that x
Btw, George also had a (conscious) x-ray immediately prior to his giant bladder stone removal but this was before pre-meds, before anaesthetic, before anything serious was done even though nothing short of Harry Potter was going to miracle that one away! Just in case it's useful...
The other thing to remember is that our piggies generally don't realise we're trying to help by taking them to the vet and it's not typically a positive experience from their point of view (unless you have one like George who had to go every 3 months when he was basically just a bit stiff to get a gentle fuss-over, more metacam, and a salad on the way home for being brave!) So we might plan a big trip to a new and 'specialised', albeit distant, exotic vet and risk a complicated operation with a risky general anaesthetic and a real chance of the problem recurring afterwards. We do it because we love them and feel it must be 'for the best' because we have a diagnosis and a prognosis and we can think about the future and reason things out. All piggy knows is that he's feeling somewhere between not-great and really-very-poorly and he's taken out of his safe little home (with his friend, if he's lucky) to somewhere he doesn't know at all, and it smells funny, to be poked in his hurty bits by strange hands and sat in a little strange cage. Then he wakes up later and feels rough as anything for quite a long while. He doesn't realise he's ever going to go home again... he might well think that this is his life now. And hopefully, oh-so-hopefully if everything has gone to plan, he can go home again soon and he feels a little better every day afterwards. Maybe in time he'll even forget it all. But generally none of this is a great experience and you can't explain that to them, you can only try and distract them from it all with a bit of salad. They actually don't expect us to be able to do anything for them - their instinct doesn't understand modern medicine. We try because we love them and want to do as much for them to have a happy life as we can. But sometimes the scales have to fall the other way and they don't judge us. We might judge us, but they don't. They're innocent of all that x
Btw, George also had a (conscious) x-ray immediately prior to his giant bladder stone removal but this was before pre-meds, before anaesthetic, before anything serious was done even though nothing short of Harry Potter was going to miracle that one away! Just in case it's useful...
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
Nancy was hiding away more. And she has been on co-trimoxazole for two weeks to rule out a UTI. Currently her squeaking is far worse unfortunately so it seems a UTI is unlikely. She had been only doing small wees though. She squeaks when pooing sometimes too.
Free Ranger
Forum Donator 2023/24
If piggy has a UTI and an antibiotic is given then symptoms should typically improve in the first few days - for sure by about 3 days, although it is often within the first 24 hours. If no change is seen in these first 3 days we tell our vet and ask our vet about switching to a different antibiotic because bacteria can be resistant. Sometimes I've left it 5 days because it kind of looked like there was a little bit of improvement but we've never gotten anywhere and still had to switch. Did they also try Baytril? That's often one of the first ones given. In our case there's pretty much always been a UTI (even if there's been a stone too) and sometimes the first AB has shown a difference but sometimes it's taken an alternative one. I personally don't feel comfortable ruling out UTI with only one type of AB tried. I'm not a vet but I have had a few pigs and they have battled a few infections! Glucosamine is different - it takes 2 or 3 weeks of being on it before it makes a noticeable difference. It's not a 'cure' for UTI but it can help battered bladders heal from trauma. Squeaking when pooping can actually be as the poop moves past the inflamed bladder. In girls you can get problems with the reproductive tract too but bladder problems are common. It's the first thing to look at.
Long courses are prescribed to clear up the last of the bacteria which hang around persistently but most of the bacteria causing an infection should be nobbled right at the start of the course. This is why doctors bang on about people making sure they finish their course when we get human antibiotics... we might get a weeks worth but we feel lots better after a few days and can be tempted to think we can cut it short. But then after a few days off the antibiotics the symptoms can come back with a vengeance because the last few bugs multiply up and start causing misery again.
If it's definitely not UTI then stone or sludge are a candidate but these can be identified by x-ray. The solids tend to light up well. Some vets don't need to anesthetise, mine swaddles piggy firmly in a towel to get the snap. It sounds like she's in a deal of pain most of the time. Does it come in waves, like a bad day and then fine for a bit? Or is it all the time. I'm just going to pop in a picture of George's x-ray here so you can play spot the stone. Clue: it's not hard...
This was immediately prior to removal in January this year. George was on glucosamine and metacam (about 0.35ml of 1.5mg/ml morning and evening... that's 4 'units' on the syringe). The point I want to make is that George's massive stone actually didn't hurt him acutely. It was too big to wedge anywhere. His behaviour was pretty much normal most of the time until he got an infection on top of it, then he was very unhappy as his bladder inflamed. His UTI pain was much worse. He cried so loud you could hear him all over the house, and it was every 20 minutes. He was wet through underneath.It's possible you're looking for a stone in a different place (stuck in the ureter or urethra - but in a girl urethral stones can sometimes be extracted without surgery) or it's possible that poor Nancy might end up having what is called Sterile Interstitial Cystitis - although people with SIC pigs tend to describe 'flare-ups' that will ebb away again with painkiller and glucosamine over days or a few weeks depending on the severity. Antibiotics won't cure it but they don't make it worse, and after a few weeks on glucosamine and painkiller you might typically see it easing. Scans of SIC piggies show thickened and inflamed bladder walls. 'Crystals' are something I don't know much about but I'm not sure an x-ray would light them up, and if they're pointy and sharp I could see how that might be painful. Is Nancy able to maintain her own weight or is she losing weight?
If you haven't tried an alternative antibiotic I'd ask about that option first. And if they've given you the weaker 'cat' metacam (0.5mg/ml) or only said once a day it might be worth trying to press for a higher dose or twice a day. That's all I can offer for now apart from my love and prayers x
Sorry for the thread hijack @piggiemummy03x
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
Thank you for your detailed reply.
She has been on co-trimoxazole for two weeks. And while she was more hidey before she was on it she actually is in more pain now then before she started on it. The vet said she had bacteria in her urine but she said that it was not significant, I think she thinks it came off the table she was on rather than an infection. We've not been on baytril since she had an infection in January. She absolutely hates the stuff and fights me.
I spoke to the guinea pig vet online today ( i don't live locally) and she suggested trying without glucasomine for a while because the stress of her being picked up to take it may out weigh the benefits.
She's on 0.4ml of dog metacam twice a day, she's currently 1000g or just under. It's not working for sure. Guinea pig vet said I could put it up but not sure what my usual vet would feel about that (she's currently on annual leave). But hearing her in pain is awful.
Nancy is currently maintaining her weight but long term she hasn't been. She's lost 120g since January. She lost 35g from having an x-ray nearly four weeks ago which she never gained back but hasn't lost more weight since then. She also has small ovarian cysts which present as hormonal. Vet says they feel about 1cm.
A week ago I thought Nancy was improving a bit and then it's got much worse over the weekend. As soon as my vet is back I'm going to make an appointment.
Free Ranger
Forum Donator 2023/24
She's on a good dose of dog metacam then. Nobody likes baytril because it's bitter, but at least the volumes are small. I always follow my baytril with the metacam to try and get the taste away - and a sprig of parsley helps mine here too as they wouldn't eat coriander.
George had 2 cultures and both were negative for bacteria. But it was deffo a horrid UTI as two days into Septrin and he was back to normal both times.
Was the Baytril in January for a UTI as well? If it was you may just have a recurrence of that same bug which might have been hanging round in the environment. Life isn't sterile... but it's only when the bacterial population gets established and increases in numbers that a problem is caused. If it's the same bug and Baytril got it last time it's worth another try. Baytril didn't touch George's infection which was a shame as that never upset his tummy. His first UTI was in the summer of last year... once cleared he remained symptom free until end of March and then came down with 'another' UTI caused by a bug resistant to Baytril (again) but sensitive to Septrin (again) which won't have been a coincidence.
Have a look at oxbow joint support biscuits which come in a white and purple packet and cost about £20 (amazon or similar) but you get quite a lot in there. They contain 90mg glucosamine per tablet... it's a big one like a giant food pellet, about an inch across, but my pigs were delighted to come out and get their daily 'treat'. It's not quite as much as in a capsule of cystease (which I think is 120mg) but it's better than nowt and easier to boot. Of course fussy Flora wouldn't touch hers so she had to have the urinary support version (white and yellow packet) which actually only had 45mg glucosamine per biscuit. If she's in pain she might be reluctant to chomp on these as it's quite crunchy but perhaps you could try soaking one in a bit of water first?
A lot of girls carry cysts but have you seen any moodiness? Shedding of fur from the flanks? I don't know how the cysts might influence her current symptoms - my little sow Flora has whopping ovaries at the minute but in truth we only found out by accident a few weeks ago when she was in for something else.
Thinking of you Nancy x
George had 2 cultures and both were negative for bacteria. But it was deffo a horrid UTI as two days into Septrin and he was back to normal both times.
Was the Baytril in January for a UTI as well? If it was you may just have a recurrence of that same bug which might have been hanging round in the environment. Life isn't sterile... but it's only when the bacterial population gets established and increases in numbers that a problem is caused. If it's the same bug and Baytril got it last time it's worth another try. Baytril didn't touch George's infection which was a shame as that never upset his tummy. His first UTI was in the summer of last year... once cleared he remained symptom free until end of March and then came down with 'another' UTI caused by a bug resistant to Baytril (again) but sensitive to Septrin (again) which won't have been a coincidence.
Have a look at oxbow joint support biscuits which come in a white and purple packet and cost about £20 (amazon or similar) but you get quite a lot in there. They contain 90mg glucosamine per tablet... it's a big one like a giant food pellet, about an inch across, but my pigs were delighted to come out and get their daily 'treat'. It's not quite as much as in a capsule of cystease (which I think is 120mg) but it's better than nowt and easier to boot. Of course fussy Flora wouldn't touch hers so she had to have the urinary support version (white and yellow packet) which actually only had 45mg glucosamine per biscuit. If she's in pain she might be reluctant to chomp on these as it's quite crunchy but perhaps you could try soaking one in a bit of water first?
A lot of girls carry cysts but have you seen any moodiness? Shedding of fur from the flanks? I don't know how the cysts might influence her current symptoms - my little sow Flora has whopping ovaries at the minute but in truth we only found out by accident a few weeks ago when she was in for something else.
Thinking of you Nancy x
piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
so strange! yes unfortunately can happen but let’s hope its just clear!
piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
of course! its such a shame because it seems its a very common occurrence in piggies!
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
That's interesting that George showed nothing on a culture. I had to persuade my vet to give me the co-trimoxazole so I think it's unlikely she will be up for giving her baytril.
They refuse to eat the urinary support ones, I've ordered the joint ones to see if they change their mind but I'm doubtful they will eat them.
It's Nancy's behaviour with the cysts, no hair loss etc. They are small functional cysts. She behaves like she's on heat for months at a time.
piggiemummy03x
Forum Donator 2023/24
i will mention crystals to the vet next appointment.. although i have no idea what they are? could you possibly expand please so i have a bit of information to go off haha! are they similar to stones?
Piggies2023
Teenage Guinea Pig
I asked the same question recently. I've tagged you in the thread