zoe saga continues

[choloe]

here are my last 2 posts in zoe update;
i am writing this whilst worried about zoe, i don't think she liked the jabs and needles that were used on her. firstly kirsten did sedate zoe who is taking a long time to fully come out of it and she is cold to the touch.
kirsten tried a few times to get blood from zoe's jugular vein but found there was too much soft tissue in zoe's neck, so she tried zoe's hind legs ands managed to get a swab and then she tried zoe's front legs but couldn't get a vein. zoe has also lost 20grams in a month. so no blood was taken except the swab to do a blood count. kirsten believes zoe is over weight at 9.35grams and strongly believes zoe could be diabetic. so she wants me to make zoe forage for her food to help her lose weight. as you know kirsten is doing a course on guinea pigs and rodents so she will ask on the forum there is anyone can help inregards to zoe and how to get a blood test.
so i have put zoe through all this stress for nothing, she wants me to cut down on pellets and hay and to watch zoe's weight. i just want zoe to shake of the affects of ths sedation. will keep you posted, not feeling well with this damn cold so am going to catch so sleep. will keep everyone posted.

the reason kirsten wants us to put zoe on a diet is because she is not doing any exercise, if we have her out she just sits there and looks at us saying well you put me down you pick me up. i have no idea how active a 4 year old piggy should be, but zoe has never been active. i would hate for kirsten to see jessie as she is over 1100grams little pot belly like her mum. kirsten wants zoe to work for her food, which we have treid in the past and never worked. she is slowly coming round from that sedation, whilst she too ages coming out of the sedation, i am glad she had it as poor little zoe has about 8 needle marks on her where they tried to get blood, even with a catehter (sp) so kirsten is going to check on the forum of the syney uni where she is doing that course on line, also to ask carol a lady who works in the nairne surgery who used to work in the UK, and she is also going to get helen to relook at zoe's scan films she keeps on hard disc and see what kidneys were like in january. she also wants another urine sample but for now zoe is keeping it to herself. kirsten believes zoe is drinking lots of water due to diabeties, liver disease, tumour,hormonal to name some. she is 95% sure it is not kidney disease or renal failure. will have to wait till kirsten has done some research, where they tried to get the blood i have to start massaging tomorrow to stop it was stiffening up.
all in all the vet is happy for zoe to eat what ever she she likes but she wants zoe to be active which the only activity zoe is doing now is eating. even jessie drinks whilst laying down. anyway will keep you posted, sending hugs
maryh inbox is empty, zoe is now 935grams lost 20grams in 3 weeks.

so what i want to know is how do you make an inactive piggy active? and is there a weight watches for piggies? as when zoe eats she lies down, she'll sometimes bury herself under the straw but that is it for the exercise. she has never been active in the 4 years we have had her. jessie is going the same way, jessie even lies down and lifts head for drink and lies down again. have tried floor time and zoe sits there saying you put me down you pick me up, jessie is off and away, have tried food trails but nothing will get zoe to move any suggestions appreciated. according to dr taylor in the UK diabeties in piggies is becoming way too common as piggies are fed to much carbohydrates. am open for any help and suggestions to get zoe active or is she like her mum?

 

[starla]

maybe put zoe on the floor and sit on the floor with her, and put a box or something to hide in so she has to run from the middle of the floor into the box? Or defeating the object - but you could put her in the middle of the floor and put a small treat far away from her? Or get a tube maybe she will like going through that? Poor zoe hope kirsten can sort her :smitten:

 

[mackpossum]

Hmmm, if you got a diabetic piggy then lay off the carbohydrates......meaning, don't give her the pellets, just hay and fresh veggies.

It does them no harm and she will loose some weight as well. Just make sure the veggies are a good variety.

 

[choloe]

but i thought oxbow pllts an timothy hay wr goo for guina pigs? which is why i bought som to giv th girls, ar you now tlling m thy hav too much carbohyrats in thm? hr is information on th timothy hay;[colorblu]Th most wily, vt rcommn hay for matur pt hrbivors. High fibr, low-protin an low calcium contnt, is crit with hlping prvnt obsity, maintain a halthy urinary systm an improv ovrall halth.
[colorr]cavy cusin-Supr high fibr timothy hay-bas pllts with stabilis vitamin , sign to mt th nutritional ns of ault guina pigs. High fibr, low calcium, low protin.
so shoul i continu fing th girls oxbow? H got a urin sampl an has ropp it of at th vt. zo os NT lik bing massag whr th bloo sampls wr tri from sh actually bit m :o :o :o will lt you know whn i har from kirstn th vt. thanks for avic an rplis. :smittn: :smittn: :smittn:

 

[choloe]

zoe's test results are in; perhaps someone can explain to me where we go from here?
Hi Mary,

Kirsty has asked me to forward Zoes Haematology results on to you. All the values are normal, but numbers have been estimated from the smear only.

White Cell Count 8.0 x 10 9 /L
Neutrophils 21 % 1.7 x 10 9 /L
Band Forms 0 % 0.0 x 10 9 /L
Lymphocytes 71 % 5.7 x 10 9 /L
Monocytes 1 % 0.1 x 10 9 /L
Eosinophils 7 % 0.6 x 10 9 /L


FILM MORPHOLOGY: RBC: Normal WBC: Morphology normal. PLATELETS:
Adequate, Aggregated.

All these values are within normal referance ranges, but numbers have
been estimated from smear

We also ran a USG (Urine Specific Gravity) and diffstik on Zoes urine that you dropped in. Her USG was 1.010 and everything else was normal, except the PH was 9 and there was a trace of protein, but bear in mind this was using a human dipstick.

Regards,
Ursula Ware

 

[Tayz]

I hope she gets better...looks like shes on the mend slowly...... :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:

 

[rw3399]

I'm sorry but I can't help you with figures (me and figues just don't get on). I personally would feel reluctant to stop or even cut down the hay because it is such a big part of a gp's diet and helps with teeth, digestion, etc. As for floor time I don't think gp's are the most active but used to have a small toilet roll to play with and she used to push it around and try and pick it up with her teeth to fling around. She used to like running under newspaper so maybe when she is out put a small layer over the top of her and see if she runs out the other end?

 

[sarsmccabe]

looks like she is slowly on the mend. i hope so you have been through so much. xx

 

[maryh]

Mary,

935 grms is underweight not overweight.,and ph9 is within normal limits for a gp.

 

[choloe]

rply from oxbow vt in nbaska concrning whthr thir proucts hav too much carbohyrats;

[colorblu]Jn:
Goo ay. Thanks for th mail an on’t vr hsitat to contact m irctly. W hav not complt any nutritional tsting that spcifically looks at th arbohyrat lvl of our proucts as thy ar so fibr bas an o not contain whol ss. Typically with a iabtic animal it is first important to finitivly iagnos th animal ithr through bloo tsting or urin glucos tsting. If thy ar truly iabtic initiating mical thrapy pns on th cas. Howvr thr ar things you can o nutritionally to hlp. Ensuring thy ar only fing uniform timothy hay bas pllt lik avy uisin. In aition I woul provi aitional Vit , limit thir pllt intak to a minimum thrby incrasing thir hay intak, an insuring that any supplmntal grns or vggis that might b f ar appropriat an low sugar. This woul also inclu avoiing any most if not all trats.
If th vt woul truly lik an actually analysis on just lt m know an I will chck into complting th tsting. hrs
Micah
Micah Kohls, DVM
Dirctor of Vtrinary Srvics
xbow Animal Halth
Tl: 800-249-0366 xt 105
Fax: 402-867-3222
[mail]mkohls@oxbowanimalhalth.com[/mail]
www.oxbowanimalh[COLOR=Black]alth.com

[colorr]Jn:
Sorry about th two mails. I rciv this on aftr th first for som rason. Without glucos in th urin it is unlikly, but not impossibl, that iabts is a concrn. It as bn known to spontanously occur in pigs but mor oftn in mals but I hav now prsonally iagnos a cas. If thy chck bloo glucos thy woul know for sur. I woul also rcommn a bloo chmistry to insur thr is not problms with kiny function as th urin is quit ilut. I woul also rc abominal raiographs or vn ultrasoun to rul out blars stons an xam th kiny architctur. t m know if thr is any ls I can o to hlp. hrs
Micah
Micah Kohls, DVM
Dirctor of Vtrinary Srvics
so whr too from hr i hav no ia, zo is ating, pooping, an still rinking haps so hav to wait till i har from kirsty. thanks for all rplis :smittn: :smittn: :smittn:

 

[choloe]

would a hay ball be worth buying to make zoe work for her hay? we have a kabob which makes her work for things that we poke on it. any suggestions to get zoe and jessie moving would be appreciated. thanks every one, maryh hope to hear your input as to where we go from here. thanks again :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:

 

[mackpossum]

Well, anything is worth a try. Maybe a ball will make her work a little harder.
Hide the food around the hutch.
Other option.....lol chase her around the room.... ;D just joking, won't want her to die of a heart attack.

 

[choloe]

heard from the vet nurses again and this is how it stands so far;
Hi again Mary,

Kirsty is doing some more reading and research, she has discovered you can take blood from a Guinea Pigs ear! Helen, who did Zoe's ultrasound, is also reviewing her case, to see what she can come up with. So hopefully we will have some more information for you soon.

Kirsty hasnt billed out the tests yet but will let you know costs when she has put them through.

Poor Zoe must be a bit sore to bite you! It should be ok to leave now but if you have any worries just let me know.

Glad to hear you are relieved, shame about the confused part, hope we can help you out soon!

Regards,
Ursula
it seems to be getting worse and worse, wish i'd never gone for the test in the first place!

 

[LyndsayRDH]

I would never limit hay, but you should limit pellets if you have a diabetic pig. Try sticking with a strict 1/8 cup a day of pellets. This will lower carbs and help. Avoid sugary fruits and lots of fresh veggies. This also means you will have to watch vit C amounts in veggies very closely to help insure plenty. Avoid carby veggies.

 

[MemberX]

Agree with Lyndsey about the hay. I'd lay off fruit. How old is Zoe now Mary? Is he quality of life good? Hope it is and hope she can get over her problems. :smitten:

 

[choloe]

zoe will be 4 in august, apart from drinking a lot of water 60-120 mls a day(1-1 and a half bottles) she seems in perfect health. maybe i should just leave it as i don't like the idea of more attempts of getting blood from zoe and putting her through pain, stress etc.
can anyone tell me where those balls are available where you feel them with hay. thanks again hugs, off to catch some Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz's :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: as it is 2213pm here in south oz. O0

 

[MemberX]

Bless her. I do agree, at the age she is I wouldn't want to stress her further.

Do you mean the metal balls? I got mine from Pampered Piggies but I know big pet stores have them too. Have a lovely sleep. No such luck here as it is 13:45 and I am sorting out all my war paint (make up)

Almost done in the house now so once I am will get back to you with the email! Happy dreams! x

 

[choloe]

yes the metal balls that you can stick hay in and they have to work for their hay, as the vet wants both girls to work for their food, thought this would help. have not seen any on internet nor at petshops here, may have to ask glynis whether they have any in victoria which is bigger than south australia. hoping you smell nice, perfume gives me headaches so can't wear it. and make up hardly wear it. hoping harvey/simon has settled in and that tika will get use to him.
i think i will tell my vet to hold off on the blood test for now as zoe is only drinking lots of water on average 1 bottle a day, might even ask for a diabeties diet for her just incase so she can eat food without carbo's and sugar, as for the pellets i cut oaten and timothy hay and put into a container and then add around 5 handfuls of pellets to container then shake, this container lasts 3-4 weeks and on average in 1/8 cup of this they would get around 20 pellets a day. will keep you posted. :smitten: :smitten:

 

[choloe]

here is the latest from the vet;
Hey Mary helen has reviewed u/sound and te kidneys look as they should in texture and size and are within normal size and dimension i ahve done some reading on the blood testing and it seems they are notoriously hard and have a lot of fat in the jugular region and so some take blood from tarsal vein and also the ear. I don't think you should push it given the normality of everything else.
Carol has not taken gp blood before so i think we should leave it . I will research the diet for you and reply when I have info
Have a nice piggy w/end
Kirsty
the ultrasound she mentions is the one zoe had in january,and the diet she mentions is the low carb diet. will keep you posted. :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: have a great long weekend all. O0

 

[jnenbnb]

Sorry Mary can you say what Zoe's problem is? I'm a bit confused and would love to help but i lost track of the old thread so i'm unsure what's up at the moment! Has diabetes been confirmed? Is it just the amount she is drinking making you think she has it? With regards to being over weight, what does she weigh? x

 

[Laure]

Hi Mary,

I agreed with Maryh here and I really don't think she is overweight at 935grams? What makes the vet think she is diabetic?
Poor little mite I bet she is hating all these tests...

x

 

[MemberX]

935g isn't overweight my heaviest female is Fleur at 1350g shes a big mamma!

 

[jnenbnb]

I only have one pig under 1000g and she is still not even one so will probably be bigger! x

 

[choloe]

the vet thought she is diabetic cause zoe drinks 80-120mls of water a day or one and a half bottles, plus there was a trace of protein and sugar in her widdle sample. either way a low carb diet wouldn't hurt zoe would it? ? ? ? glad no more blood test for now O0 all have to do now is save up for missy's ultrasound/scan . when you pick zoe up she does look fat but when you're cuddling her she feels thin if i haven't confused you all :-\ :-\ :-\ will try to get zoe back to around 970grams but eating healthy at the same time. any suggestions appreciated. :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: when the vet tried to get blood from zoe's thosrt she couldn't find the vein cause zoe had lots of soft tissue which the vet took to be fat. zoe will never be 1100grams again the weight before her illness :'( :'( :'( and i am worried she lost 20 grams in 4 weeks even though she has been eating like a little horse. :smitten:
:smitten: :smitten: hugs to all and happy long weekend O0 jessie girl is 2 in august and weighs nearly 1200grams and has a little pot belly :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:

 

[mackpossum]

Hmmm, I would go with the diabetic diet for a while and see if it makes a difference. Cut the pellets down, unlimited hay, no sugary fruits (remember watermelon, banana and grapes have heaps of fruit sugar) and lots of fresh veggies. See what happens on that diet and keep records of what you feed her and how much.

Those metal Hayballs I've recently seen in Big W, so you might want to have a look there.

Good luck!

 

[Laure]

I remember you mentioning a while back that she was 'junk' piggy and that she likes her sugary treats.
Piggies who are fed dried food / treats that contain Artificial Colours often present with high Glucose readings. If they are then taken off the food containing Artificial Colours for 2-3 weeks, the Glucose reading should get back to normal.

Diabetes can be treated with Insulin but it would extremely dangerous to give it to a piggy without diabetes so it is important to make sure that the result are truly positive and not the result

Personally I would not cut down on the pellets especially if you are feeding her Oxbow's cavy cuisine as they are the best possible pellets (Timothy based and really good quality).
She is definitely not overweight though.

Personally I would take out any 'treats' you might give her and stick to veg (no fruit), hay and pellets for a few weeks and then to another urine test.
Some piggies do drink a lot of water so there might not be anything wrong with her.

xx

 

[jnenbnb]

I agree with Laure O0 she may be drinking a lot because she is eating lots of pellets and hay? I have one who could drink for England! x

 

[crus]

Hope this helps but i've found that after cleaning their hutch and moving things around, my piggies love to explore and therefore get their excersise! They particularly love it when i line up 3 or 4 of the cardboard 'chubes'. Its as though they think it'll lead them out to another world! :smitten:

 

[Black Jack]

Hope this helps but i've found that after cleaning their hutch and moving things around, my piggies love to explore and therefore get their excersise! They particularly love it when i line up 3 or 4 of the cardboard 'chubes'. Its as though they think it'll lead them out to another world! :smitten:

Perhaps it does just like Mr Ben in the the Tailor's shop! ;D ;D ;D Perhaps they go into a parallel universe somewhere and just appear to be in their cages!

 

[choloe]

Re: zoe saga continues

I remember you mentioning a while back that she was 'junk' piggy and that she likes her sugary treats.Piggies who are fed dried food / treats that contain Artificial Colours often present with high Glucose readings. If they are then taken off the food containing Artificial Colours for 2-3 weeks, the Glucose reading should get back to normal. Diabetes can be treated with Insulin but it would extremely dangerous to give it to a piggy without diabetes so it is important to make sure that the result are truly positive and not the result Personally I would not cut down on the pellets especially if you are feeding her Oxbow's cavy cuisine as they are the best possible pellets (Timothy based and really good quality).She is definitely not overweight though.Personally I would take out any 'treats' you might give her and stick to veg (no fruit), hay and pellets for a few weeks and then to another urine test. Some piggies do drink a lot of water so there might not be anything wrong with her. xx

laure thanks for the replies, as to junk food piggy this was jessie not zoe. as for treats they don't have any, zoe gets twice a day celery leaf, 20 cent size of silverbeet, bok choy, parsley, grass, once a day she will get timothy, oaten hay mixed together with the oxbow pellets (in a container this container lasts 3-4 weeks) and a never ending supply of oaten hay
she does eat a lot of hay so maybe this is making her thirsty? the only sweets zoe has is in summer when she and other half will fight over rockmelon you call it cantelope, it is so funny to see them fight over it :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: and please don't forget zoe has been on a grass/hay diet for months i am adding veggies very slowly in 6 weeks i have only added silverbeet, celery leaf and bokchoy. as for the link to my other thread coming right up. http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=19464.0 No she has not been diagnosed as diabetic as try as they could they couldn't get a blood sample only a swab which they used to caculate blood cell count. thanks to everyone for the replies as for jessie she is eating grass and likes bok choy still working on her as there is no junk food for anyone O0 :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: