When Do You Know Its Time

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Hello All

Hoping to get some advice from someone who has had the problem of splitting piggies up in the past. My boys were bought from a petstore at the same time, i believe they were 12 weeks when we bought them and we've had them a little over a month. My partner and I are growingly increasingly concerned with the behaviour of scooby.
He is dominant to shaggy which is fine (believe this relate to hireachy etc) but he seems to be overly aggressive with him during floortime.
Last night i decided to take shaggy out of his cage for cuddles but left scooby in there to see how he would react. He looked very sorry for himself and a little peeved he was still in the cage.
When i put shaggy back scooby greeted him and seemed happy to see him.
I have had a phone call from my partner today whilst I am in the office saying scooby has been going for shaggy again.
I am wondering are we getting close to splitting them up for a little cooling off? I am also thinking should the heard be expanded to either 3/4 piggies so scooby's dominance isn't focused solely on shaggy. When I build the new wonderland in the comming weeks I am going to set it up so it can be divided into two at a moments notice. Any thoughts on whats the best way to approach this seemingly fine piggie who everynow and again decideds to bully and be mean to his non maternal brother?
Thanks
JOe

 

[Freela]

What do you mean by bullying? Chasing, mounting, etc. are all normal dominance behavior. Squealing from the under-piggy is a normal submissive behavior. Is your less dominant pig able to eat, drink, rest? Are they facing off? Have there been bites where blood is drawn? Those things are more a reason to consider splitting, not basic dominance behaviors. So a little more detail may help some of the more experienced boar members give you some guidance. Intermittent dominance behaviors in and of themselves are not harmful to a bond.

Expanding the herd of boars is a bad idea, as boar trios and groups are more likely to fail than boar pairings. It won't spread out the dominance behaviors, it will force the boys you have to begin the process of determining dominance all over again, so please don't add boars to a mix that you already fear might be on shaky ground!

Hopefully some of the boar owners can help you out more (I have sows.)

 

[Cavy Kung-Fu]

What size enclosure do they have? It is probably worth upgrading to something bigger to get them more space.

Only separate as a last resort, once separated they may never re-bond (although not impossible). Don't separate them unless they draw blood and hurt each other.

Unfortunately males cannot be in groups as they would fight. If they actually fight and injure each other and are separated, you could look at having them neutered and after the 6 week waiting period you could get a wife pig or two.

I would give them more space, keep an eye on them and check them regularly for injury. It sounds like they're going through their hormonal stage so try and stick it out as long as they allow. They may very well come through this stage and be best of friends so all is not lost

Just some experience, I've got females and they always have their moments of dominance which seems like bullying at the time but it's pretty normal for my lot and they all love each other really

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

What size enclosure do they have? It is probably worth upgrading to something bigger to get them more space.

Only separate as a last resort, once separated they may never re-bond (although not impossible). Don't separate them unless they draw blood and hurt each other.

Unfortunately males cannot be in groups as they would fight. If they actually fight and injure each other and are separated, you could look at having them neutered and after the 6 week waiting period you could get a wife pig or two.

I would give them more space, keep an eye on them and check them regularly for injury. It sounds like they're going through their hormonal stage so try and stick it out as long as they allow. They may very well come through this stage and be best of friends so all is not lost

Just some experience, I've got females and they always have their moments of dominance which seems like bullying at the time but it's pretty normal for my lot and they all love each other really

Hey Thanks for the response, this is the cage they currently have
http://www.petsathome.com/webapp/wc...mCC46MuuxbjfQwD7mWcaAsKyEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
only realised after purchase and research they need alot more than this, hence the many hours of floor time a day and laptime. And like i said I will be making their own little wonderland soon enough.
I initally read not to have more than two male piggies together but have since read and seen many many males living in harmony. So i am getting conflicting information on that view of no more than two males. I think alot surely depends on personality.
I hope that Scooby does come through this puberty stage and not turn into a big meanie 24/7.
At which point I would probably get him netuered and get some males and have them in one part of the intended enclosure. And get shaggy another male freind.

 

[Reenie]

I have read of large bachelor groups, but you're talking at least 10 with loads of space. I have 3 in a 5x3 c&c, and I fully expect to have to split them up at some point. Best bet is a pair.

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

I have read of large bachelor groups, but you're talking at least 10 with loads of space. I have 3 in a 5x3 c&c, and I fully expect to have to split them up at some point. Best bet is a pair.

Yeah but why do you get three and i dont, Jokes of course. I want to do what is best for them both. I just hope Scooby doesn't turn into the very rare breed of piggie that wants to be on his own full time.
Yeah one of the groups i seen was in the teens can't remember how many though. I'm going to be effectively giving them half of the kitchen floor so the overall space will be around 6ft by 4 ft. And that much space seems like alot for just the two hence me thinking of building it so it can be divided and still fun for them. Looking at doing additional levels etc.

 

[Reenie]

Yeah but why do you get three and i dont, Jokes of course. I want to do what is best for them both. I just hope Scooby doesn't turn into the very rare breed of piggie that wants to be on his own full time.
Yeah one of the groups i seen was in the teens can't remember how many though. I'm going to be effectively giving them half of the kitchen floor so the overall space will be around 6ft by 4 ft. And that much space seems like alot for just the two hence me thinking of building it so it can be divided and still fun for them. Looking at doing additional levels etc.[/QUOTE

Lol. No offence taken. I never actually planned to have a herd of 3. I got them with the intention of bonding one with a single foster boar. It was an unmitigated disaster, so I'm left with 3. To be fair it's OK just now, but they're still very young., so I have spare grids on standby.

 

[rome_italy]

Hey Thanks for the response, this is the cage they currently have
http://www.petsathome.com/webapp/wc...mCC46MuuxbjfQwD7mWcaAsKyEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
only realised after purchase and research they need alot more than this, hence the many hours of floor time a day and laptime. And like i said I will be making their own little wonderland soon enough.
I initally read not to have more than two male piggies together but have since read and seen many many males living in harmony. So i am getting conflicting information on that view of no more than two males. I think alot surely depends on personality.
I hope that Scooby does come through this puberty stage and not turn into a big meanie 24/7.
At which point I would probably get him netuered and get some males and have them in one part of the intended enclosure. And get shaggy another male freind.

unfortunately that is the typical cage which gives a lot of battles among piggies, especially when they are males...
And neutering might not change the things... I am reporting only what I have heard about this, but neutering is only for not having pregnancies, it does not affect the behaviour.
Unfortunately you have only wasted money with that cage (as I also did long ago with a similar cage). You can use it with some change, opening a side for example, but you should arrange a different house for them and battles will be over for sure
You won't need to separate them, they only need more room... (look, it is like my neighbours' TEN children; they used to fight all day long, especially the boys; now that they are "only" in 4 there is no war anymore )

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

unfortunately that is the typical cage which gives a lot of battles among piggies, especially when they are males...
And neutering might not change the things... I am reporting only what I have heard about this, but neutering is only for not having pregnancies, it does not affect the behaviour.
Unfortunately you have only wasted money with that cage (as I also did long ago with a similar cage). You can use it with some change, opening a side for example, but you should arrange a different house for them and battles will be over for sure
You won't need to separate them, they only need more room... (look, it is like my neighbours' TEN children; they used to fight all day long, especially the boys; now that they are "only" in 4 there is no war anymore )

See the problem is, we went to the petsotre with my two girls (5 and 6) i take them quite abit to pet the animals, and my girlfriend came with me so they had backup for the quetion can we get one. She sided with them. SO we spoke to the store workers who told us to buy two (which was correct) and that cage would be fine for the long term (incorrect).
It is kind of my own fault for not researching before hand. But I also think the store should be obligated to say before you buy a pet like a guinea pig/hamster.degu etc etc you should have to pay for it then and then wait a few days so you can go away and research.
I imagine alot of people like myself buy on impulse and then change their mind when situations change.
However I am so in love with my two I'm glad I got them on the day. But alittle annoyed I was mis sold the cage.
With regards to the fighting stopping with more space, it is generally only in floor time Scooby starts getting super dominant, they have their quarrels in the cage of course, but it is amplified in open roaming time.

 

[rome_italy]

See the problem is, we went to the petsotre with my two girls (5 and 6) i take them quite abit to pet the animals, and my girlfriend came with me so they had backup for the quetion can we get one. She sided with them. SO we spoke to the store workers who told us to buy two (which was correct) and that cage would be fine for the long term (incorrect).
It is kind of my own fault for not researching before hand. But I also think the store should be obligated to say before you buy a pet like a guinea pig/hamster.degu etc etc you should have to pay for it then and then wait a few days so you can go away and research.
I imagine alot of people like myself buy on impulse and then change their mind when situations change.
However I am so in love with my two I'm glad I got them on the day. But alittle annoyed I was mis sold the cage.
With regards to the fighting stopping with more space, it is generally only in floor time Scooby starts getting super dominant, they have their quarrels in the cage of course, but it is amplified in open roaming time.

sellers do their job... The same story happened with me and even worse than yours because they sold me also a package of "good" food made of sunflowers seeds!, Luckily I already got an appointment with the vet who was shocked and told me to throw away cage and food. That cage is new... I had to build another one using some materials, but I was so angry with myself...
Anyway that cage was useful as a "pet carriage" into the car when we went to holidays.. and now I am using the basis for collecting paper before throwing it away into the recycle bin

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

sellers do their job... The same story happened with me and even worse than yours because they sold me also a package of "good" food made of sunflowers seeds!, Luckily I already got an appointment with the vet who was shocked and told me to throw away cage and food. That cage is new... I had to build another one using some materials, but I was so angry with myself...
Anyway that cage was useful as a "pet carriage" into the car when we went to holidays.. and now I am using the basis for collecting paper before throwing it away into the recycle bin

I agree sellers do their job, but it's not like selling someone a car or a consumable good. It's a little life and I think it's a bit irresponsible to just sell to anyone who walks in the shop. And give them the "Package"
We had our guineas at the vet the next day as one of them seemed to be closing his eye but not the other. He had an eye infection, which unfortunatley the other caught. We gave them the eye drops and did the cleaning etc, and he weighed them the first time. On the second trip he weighed them again they had put a decent amount of weight on. And he spoke to him about scoobies attitude. His response was get him neutered. I said I wouldn't like to be neutered for being naughty lol
I also asked him about the grease glands and was i safe to use original fairy liquid, he looked at me like i was speaking spanish. He went on to tell me he had never heard of grease glands and maybe go to another vet.......cheers mate

additionally went back to the pet store a few times to get bits and bobs for my syrian hamster and noticed all hamsters, guineas and other small animals had gone. I asked whats going on and they all had the same eye infections

 

[rome_italy]

I agree sellers do their job, but it's not like selling someone a car or a consumable good. It's a little life and I think it's a bit irresponsible to just sell to anyone who walks in the shop. And give them the "Package"
We had our guineas at the vet the next day as one of them seemed to be closing his eye but not the other. He had an eye infection, which unfortunatley the other caught. We gave them the eye drops and did the cleaning etc, and he weighed them the first time. On the second trip he weighed them again they had put a decent amount of weight on. And he spoke to him about scoobies attitude. His response was get him neutered. I said I wouldn't like to be neutered for being naughty lol
I also asked him about the grease glands and was i safe to use original fairy liquid, he looked at me like i was speaking spanish. He went on to tell me he had never heard of grease glands and maybe go to another vet.......cheers mate

additionally went back to the pet store a few times to get bits and bobs for my syrian hamster and noticed all hamsters, guineas and other small animals had gone. I asked whats going on and they all had the same eye infections

luckily nowadays we have the web and we can keep us well informed! and the same happens with more important thing about OUR health. i insisted a LOT for getting my "harmless" mole removed... and it was a cancer... My mole was seen by a general doctor and by a dermatologist doctor and both told me it was good. (Actually the dermatologist after the result of biopsy told me "I had realised it was a cancer", unfortunately I cannot translate my POLITE reply... I would be banned from the forum....)
But the story of the grease glands is too funny!

 

[lauraboara]

Back to your original topic, I would really encourage you to stick to a pair of boys not a trio. I have several pairs of boys at a time (7 boys in total at the mo as just lost one). I put a lot of thought into getting the pairs right so the personalities match and travel about to take them 'boar dating' when there is a bereavement or fall out. There is nothing better than a pair of boys who get on and lark about together.
There have been lots of threads about trios falling out - we can only share our experiences.
Have you read the sticky threads on boar behaviour? What can look quite rough and tumble to us can be normal piggie hierarchy sorting out

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Back to your original topic, I would really encourage you to stick to a pair of boys not a trio. I have several pairs of boys at a time (7 boys in total at the mo as just lost one). I put a lot of thought into getting the pairs right so the personalities match and travel about to take them 'boar dating' when there is a bereavement or fall out. There is nothing better than a pair of boys who get on and lark about together.
There have been lots of threads about trios falling out - we can only share our experiences.
Have you read the sticky threads on boar behaviour? What can look quite rough and tumble to us can be normal piggie hierarchy sorting out

Hi, thanks for your response. They do get on alot in floor time chasing each other around and popcorning like crazy I do have some videos on my phone of them doing this. It is beyond cute.
I was aware that the behaviour can just be hirachy related, but also read about it escalating to the point where one piggie doesn't like the other and they have to be seperated. I kind of get the feeling that scooby would be happier with females but I'm not going to be rushing into any decisions and will be seeing how things go over time as they are both only young still and i think the age is a massive factor at the minute and the personalities obviously.

 

[lauraboara]

Yes teenage hormones are a big factor! Also be aware that it may escalate every time you change the environment eg clean out time or moving to a play pen. Taking a not so fresh fleece or bed each with them to the new place can be good. Look out for whether the one you think is the underpig is eating and drinking ok. It is good to get into a pattern of weighing weekly and although they are growing now, you may spot if one is being kept away from food.
Check them over for cuts when you get them out for cuddles if you think they may be fighting when u are not there. a key place is under the chin where they can get nipped after a dramatic nose off! Hope the boys settle for you.

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Yes teenage hormones are a big factor! Also be aware that it may escalate every time you change the environment eg clean out time or moving to a play pen. Taking a not so fresh fleece or bed each with them to the new place can be good. Look out for whether the one you think is the underpig is eating and drinking ok. It is good to get into a pattern of weighing weekly and although they are growing now, you may spot if one is being kept away from food.
Check them over for cuts when you get them out for cuddles if you think they may be fighting when you are not there. a key place is under the chin where they can get nipped after a dramatic nose off! Hope the boys settle for you.

Hey thanks for your reply. When we first noticed the dominance display, and nudging from scooby to shaggy at the food bowl. We started giving them their veggied in laptime so shaggy could get his fill. The first time they went to the docs they were 420 grams (scooby) and 380 grams (shaggy) the next time around a week two weeks later they were 540 and 500 grams respectively.
Been checking for skin breaks and can't see any.
Bedding is an issue as i clean their cage every two days (by clean i mean change in full shavings, hay bedding). I have seen lots of people use fleeces but I haven't used them yet, but intend to when new wonderland is up and running.

 

[lauraboara]

Have u got 2 food bowls and 2 water bottles? Pretty much essential for boys. Veggies at lap time sounds great idea.
The bedding change issue is really about smell - if you can transfer something like squares of fleece which smell of them if helps reduce the posturing and chasing.
Good that there are no cuts - sounds like u will just need to keep a close eye (which u are doing! ) and see how it pans out. Fingers crossed

 

[Wiebke]

Hello All

Hoping to get some advice from someone who has had the problem of splitting piggies up in the past. My boys were bought from a petstore at the same time, i believe they were 12 weeks when we bought them and we've had them a little over a month. My partner and I are growingly increasingly concerned with the behaviour of scooby.
He is dominant to shaggy which is fine (believe this relate to hireachy etc) but he seems to be overly aggressive with him during floortime.
Last night i decided to take shaggy out of his cage for cuddles but left scooby in there to see how he would react. He looked very sorry for himself and a little peeved he was still in the cage.
When i put shaggy back scooby greeted him and seemed happy to see him.
I have had a phone call from my partner today whilst I am in the office saying scooby has been going for shaggy again.
I am wondering are we getting close to splitting them up for a little cooling off? I am also thinking should the heard be expanded to either 3/4 piggies so scooby's dominance isn't focused solely on shaggy. When I build the new wonderland in the comming weeks I am going to set it up so it can be divided into two at a moments notice. Any thoughts on whats the best way to approach this seemingly fine piggie who everynow and again decideds to bully and be mean to his non maternal brother?
Thanks
JOe

Hi!
Please take the time to read this very detailed guide here. It tells you exactly what to look out for and how to judge whether a boar bond is still working or not.
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

Please be aware that trios and quartets are even more unstable than couples, and the most surefire way of starting World War III in your situation!

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Have you got 2 food bowls and 2 water bottles? Pretty much essential for boys. Veggies at lap time sounds great idea.
The bedding change issue is really about smell - if you can transfer something like squares of fleece which smell of them if helps reduce the posturing and chasing.
Good that there are no cuts - sounds like you will just need to keep a close eye (which you are doing! ) and see how it pans out. Fingers crossed

Thanks for the response. To be honest pellets stay in the bowl but veggies get dragged out and on occasion shaggy the submissive will pull food off scooby and he is fine because they have a like to go at.
I only have one bottle and they take turns but I will get another just to stop any potential battle. Ill look into the fleece squares.
The fighting is never over food or water it's just like scooby wants to flex I think

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Hi!
Please take the time to read this very detailed guide here. It tells you exactly what to look out for and how to judge whether a boar bond is still working or not.
Boars: Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

Please be aware that trios and quartets are even more unstable than couples, and the most surefire way of starting World War III in your situation!

I have read through that one. I think what has been confusing is reading about herds of males and them being happier in larger groups etc. Its one of them with all the information to hand it's difficult to know what's correct and what's not. But thanks again for advice given in this forum

 

[Wiebke]

I have read through that one. I think what has been confusing is reading about herds of males and them being happier in larger groups etc. Its one of them with all the information to hand it's difficult to know what's correct and what's not. But thanks again for advice given in this forum

Large groups are 10 boars plus with at least 1 square metre per boar, not 3-4 four. They are the most unstable; I have clearly stated that in the thread.

If you feel really worried, you can do a little trial separation. Otherwise, you have to sit it out and make sure that you try to eliminate as many potential flash points for fighting and bullying.

If necessary, feed small amounts of pellets and veg in three bowls, with the third bowl in reserve if the two bowl trick doesn't work. Feed the boys well apart, but only as much as they can eat in one go. Remove the bowls in the meantime. That helps cutting down on food bullying. Make sure that hay access cannot be blocked and if necessary have it in two place. Have only hideys with two exits or even just children's stools.

 

[Cavy Kung-Fu]

Hey Thanks for the response, this is the cage they currently have
http://www.petsathome.com/webapp/wc...mCC46MuuxbjfQwD7mWcaAsKyEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
only realised after purchase and research they need alot more than this, hence the many hours of floor time a day and laptime. And like i said I will be making their own little wonderland soon enough.
I initally read not to have more than two male piggies together but have since read and seen many many males living in harmony. So i am getting conflicting information on that view of no more than two males. I think alot surely depends on personality.
I hope that Scooby does come through this puberty stage and not turn into a big meanie 24/7.
At which point I would probably get him netuered and get some males and have them in one part of the intended enclosure. And get shaggy another male freind.

Ah yes space is likely the problem then! Once they're settled in a bigger enclosure things should settle down Don't worry, Scooby isn't a meanie, he's just trying to be the big man and boss everyone around. I've worked with a few people like that!

As for male groups you would need a MASSIVE enclosure and get personalities down to a fine art, as some people have said you need to have a certain amount of piggies and space. In my opinion it's unlikely to be worth the dramas

I'm guessing you meant females rather than males, neutering sadly makes no difference to dominance like dogs or rabbits.

Hope it's going okay, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you all!

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Large groups are 10 boars plus with at least 1 square metre per boar, not 3-4 four. They are the most unstable; I have clearly stated that in the thread.

If you feel really worried, you can do a little trial separation. Otherwise, you have to sit it out and make sure that you try to eliminate as many potential flash points for fighting and bullying.

If necessary, feed small amounts of pellets and veg in three bowls, with the third bowl in reserve if the two bowl trick doesn't work. Feed the boys well apart, but only as much as they can eat in one go. Remove the bowls in the meantime. That helps cutting down on food bullying. Make sure that hay access cannot be blocked and if necessary have it in two place. Have only hideys with two exits or even just children's stools.

Three bowls sounds like a good idea.

Ah yes space is likely the problem then! Once they're settled in a bigger enclosure things should settle down Don't worry, Scooby isn't a meanie, he's just trying to be the big man and boss everyone around. I've worked with a few people like that!

As for male groups you would need a MASSIVE enclosure and get personalities down to a fine art, as some people have said you need to have a certain amount of piggies and space. In my opinion it's unlikely to be worth the dramas

I'm guessing you meant females rather than males, neutering sadly makes no difference to dominance like dogs or rabbits.

Hope it's going okay, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you all!

Thanks for your response. I read about neutering not changing their personalities but the vet mentioned if his attitude became a problem to get him neutered. I think it's the vet equivalent of someone who works in IT saying turn it off and on again lol.
They've just been out on the floor for 3 hours getting used to the new snug I bought them today. And no quarrels Shaggy tried to bottom mount scooby got brave and then ran off

 

[Cavy Kung-Fu]

Three bowls sounds like a good idea.

Thanks for your response. I read about neutering not changing their personalities but the vet mentioned if his attitude became a problem to get him neutered. I think it's the vet equivalent of someone who works in IT saying turn it off and on again lol.
They've just been out on the floor for 3 hours getting used to the new snug I bought them today. And no quarrels Shaggy tried to bottom mount scooby got brave and then ran off

Haha I love that! "Have you tried turning him off and on again?" I wouldn't bother neutering unless they absolutely had to be split, but from what you've said I'm sure you haven't got anything to worry about Boys will be boys!

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

So I'm working from home today and i'm letting the big two have some floor time. Scooby has been chattering his teeth at shaggy, even though shaggy isn't trying to display any dominance behaviour. They had a little scuffle no nipping just like a to-do in one of the hideys. And scooby sat there chuddering his teeth.
But they are now happily eating hay from the same pile.
Can i assume this is just because they have moved from their pen to the floor, and it is just a little bit of scooby saying I am incharge in here as well?

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Just gone to saynboy to my boys, and scooby and shaggy kicked off, at first I thought it was an affectionate thing as it looked like shaggy was rubbing underneath Scooby's eye with his nose next thing they attacked it lasted less than a second. No blood drawn but it seemed more than a tiff. I let them settle down and checked them over they seem fine.
They were eating out of the same bowl this morning stood next to each other and now this fighting. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do.

 

[Reenie]

Just gone to saynboy to my boys, and scooby and shaggy kicked off, at first I thought it was an affectionate thing as it looked like shaggy was rubbing underneath Scooby's eye with his nose next thing they attacked it lasted less than a second. No blood drawn but it seemed more than a tiff. I let them settle down and checked them over they seem fine.
They were eating out of the same bowl this morning stood next to each other and now this fighting. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do.

Oh dear. Mine do snap and lunge at each other from time to time, which is OK as they're happy together most of the time. As long as they keep to that and don't do any damage. It's like teenage boys really, squaring up and trying to be the big I am. Not having seen you two, I don't know how serious it is. @Weikbie is your best bet for a definitive answer though.

 

[Scooby& Shaggy]

Oh dear. Mine do snap and lunge at each other from time to time, which is OK as they're happy together most of the time. As long as they keep to that and don't do any damage. It's like teenage boys really, squaring up and trying to be the big I am. Not having seen you two, I don't know how serious it is. @Weikbie is your best bet for a definitive answer though.

Isn't @weikbie on hols, sure I read that somewhere.....I've come back from the docs with veggies and they are all eating nice. Love the sound of four little mouths munching away haha

 

[Reenie]

Isn't @weikbie on hols, sure I read that somewhere.....I've come back from the docs with veggies and they are all eating nice. Love the sound of four little mouths munching away haha

They are fab aren't they