What would you do?

skully

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Every time I start to think of myself as a fairly seasoned piggy owner, they do something new to stress me out again! I'm hoping that those with more knowledge of behaviour and an outside perspective on the situation might be able to give their opinion on my current piggy social affairs?

I had a lovely group of six sows who rubbed along quite nicely for several years. Twiggy piggy was the Big Boss and was a gentle but firm leader who kept everyone in order. I sadly lost her six weeks ago after a long and very brave battle with cancer. She was just super and I miss her terribly. I also lost Bea earlier in the year, who was a sweet little underpig. So now down to four sows. The new Big Boss is Gloria, a 5 year old californian who used to be First Lady. She has lots of opinions about everything and certainly lets everyone know! She is a heart pig and has been on meds for over a year, doing well. New First Lady is Cornflake, a 5 year old sweet greedy girl who gets on well with everyone. Then there is Maple (Cornflake's daughter) who is 4 and has lived with these same three sows since the day she was born. Bottom of the pile is Harriet, a 5 year old absolute darling who is total social glue, you can put her in with anyone and she doesn't cause any issues. Very submissive, does her own thing, trundles around happily. Has a bit of an on/off URI at the moment which is being treated but generally very well. Cage is a 2x10 C&C with 2x2 loft.

My other cage is a 2x6 C&C with 2x2 loft that is home to Mr Parsnip, a 4 year old bossy neutered lakeland, and his wife Daisy, a 3 year old rather fat tricolour who is totally henpecked by her husboar. Very submissive.

Poor Maple was spayed 2 weeks ago due to cystic ovaries and has recovered well, but seems to be getting picked on by Gloria recently. It was there before the spay, but seems to be worse since. Gloria will chatter her teeth at her and Maple will often run away very quickly when she gets too close. She does look very worried when this happens. Maple has taken to hiding in the loft (seems happy enough there) or at the other end of the cage. But then just to confuse me, will come and sit next to Gloria quite happily when it's veggie time! So I don't know if I'm worrying that she's more upset than she actually is. Gloria doesn't display aggressive behaviour to either of the other two sows. I know there is the possibility she may have cystic ovaries, and I will ask their vet to scan her next week when she has an appointment, but she wouldn't be a good candidate for anaesthesia due to her heart, so I'd have to look into medical management for this if they are present.

My other worry is that Maple does enjoy picking on Harriet, always has - she will headbutt her whenever she comes nearby and Harriet freezes and makes the most awful squeal. I know that's normal submissive behaviour but it does seem a shame! So now Harriet won't go up into the loft because Maple is rather rude to her. I think I'm just being overprotective of my sweet Harriet here, and she's probably not really bothered at all.

I hoped that others could reassure me that this is just normal lady guinea pig politics and that I don't really need to intervene, and that I'm totally overthinking the whole thing. Or if anyone thinks this might be impacting negatively on the piggies then I could look at rearranging things to try to keep everyone happy. Maple has never lived with a boy but I do have the option to try her in with Mr Parsnip and Daisy to see if she'd be happier there. I wouldn't want to introduce a neutered boy to the main herd as Gloria has fought (drawn blood) with both boys I've tried her with in the past, and being a heart pig, I try not to stress her if possible! I just worry that if I take Maple out to try something different, I might not be able to bond her back into the girl herd if things go wrong.

These piggies do keep you on your toes don't they! I'd be very appreciative of everyone's thoughts and any wisdom you may have :)

Thank you!
 
Much as I just enjoyed reading about your herds, I'm afraid I have no advice as I have only dealt with boars. I think I'd love to see pigtures though.
 
Every time I start to think of myself as a fairly seasoned piggy owner, they do something new to stress me out again! I'm hoping that those with more knowledge of behaviour and an outside perspective on the situation might be able to give their opinion on my current piggy social affairs?

I had a lovely group of six sows who rubbed along quite nicely for several years. Twiggy piggy was the Big Boss and was a gentle but firm leader who kept everyone in order. I sadly lost her six weeks ago after a long and very brave battle with cancer. She was just super and I miss her terribly. I also lost Bea earlier in the year, who was a sweet little underpig. So now down to four sows. The new Big Boss is Gloria, a 5 year old californian who used to be First Lady. She has lots of opinions about everything and certainly lets everyone know! She is a heart pig and has been on meds for over a year, doing well. New First Lady is Cornflake, a 5 year old sweet greedy girl who gets on well with everyone. Then there is Maple (Cornflake's daughter) who is 4 and has lived with these same three sows since the day she was born. Bottom of the pile is Harriet, a 5 year old absolute darling who is total social glue, you can put her in with anyone and she doesn't cause any issues. Very submissive, does her own thing, trundles around happily. Has a bit of an on/off URI at the moment which is being treated but generally very well. Cage is a 2x10 C&C with 2x2 loft.

My other cage is a 2x6 C&C with 2x2 loft that is home to Mr Parsnip, a 4 year old bossy neutered lakeland, and his wife Daisy, a 3 year old rather fat tricolour who is totally henpecked by her husboar. Very submissive.

Poor Maple was spayed 2 weeks ago due to cystic ovaries and has recovered well, but seems to be getting picked on by Gloria recently. It was there before the spay, but seems to be worse since. Gloria will chatter her teeth at her and Maple will often run away very quickly when she gets too close. She does look very worried when this happens. Maple has taken to hiding in the loft (seems happy enough there) or at the other end of the cage. But then just to confuse me, will come and sit next to Gloria quite happily when it's veggie time! So I don't know if I'm worrying that she's more upset than she actually is. Gloria doesn't display aggressive behaviour to either of the other two sows. I know there is the possibility she may have cystic ovaries, and I will ask their vet to scan her next week when she has an appointment, but she wouldn't be a good candidate for anaesthesia due to her heart, so I'd have to look into medical management for this if they are present.

My other worry is that Maple does enjoy picking on Harriet, always has - she will headbutt her whenever she comes nearby and Harriet freezes and makes the most awful squeal. I know that's normal submissive behaviour but it does seem a shame! So now Harriet won't go up into the loft because Maple is rather rude to her. I think I'm just being overprotective of my sweet Harriet here, and she's probably not really bothered at all.

I hoped that others could reassure me that this is just normal lady guinea pig politics and that I don't really need to intervene, and that I'm totally overthinking the whole thing. Or if anyone thinks this might be impacting negatively on the piggies then I could look at rearranging things to try to keep everyone happy. Maple has never lived with a boy but I do have the option to try her in with Mr Parsnip and Daisy to see if she'd be happier there. I wouldn't want to introduce a neutered boy to the main herd as Gloria has fought (drawn blood) with both boys I've tried her with in the past, and being a heart pig, I try not to stress her if possible! I just worry that if I take Maple out to try something different, I might not be able to bond her back into the girl herd if things go wrong.

These piggies do keep you on your toes don't they! I'd be very appreciative of everyone's thoughts and any wisdom you may have :)

Thank you!

Hi

Welcome to the world of sow groups. Human soaps have nothing on them! :yikes:

I would recommend to try her with Mr Parsnip and Daisy in a formal intro to see whether that is heading in the right direction or not. Abort the moment any tension is coming down between the bonded pair or the pair is making it clear that they are not open to a third piggy so Maple can return straight back to her group (if needed, after a little wipe with a damp cloth to remove the worst of any scent marking pee fest).

These kind of tester bondings are how I usually work out interpersonal group issues and work down through my own options - if they work out, great; if not, then there is nothing lost. You get a bit more of a feel which direction a bonding is heading more quickly but these tester bondings have lasted anything of all of three minutes with an overexcited neutered boar to several days in a near miss where one member of the new group was not happy with the new arrival or the leadership could not be resolved and the existing group eventually closed ranks against the newbie.

Any piggy that I shift out of a situation that is not obviously broken I give the chance to meet the previous mates through bars once the new bond is past the worst of the new group establishment . If the new bond has worked, they will ignore their old mates. If they do their best to get back with them, then the new bond has failed and I let them back - this is however rare. But this is my method of ensuring that my shifting piggies around is happening with their consent and that they are happy with the move. I probably have more failed tester bondings than successes but I also have the reassurance that I have given my piggies as much of a say in who they want to be with as possible without a way to ask them directly.

I think that this will also hopefully give you some of the answers you are looking for - is Maple still happy where she is and are Mr Parsnip and Daisy actually open for new company?
 
Much as I just enjoyed reading about your herds, I'm afraid I have no advice as I have only dealt with boars. I think I'd love to see pigtures though.
Thank you, I thought that having more girls would be simpler than boys but I’m not so sure any more :blink:

I will definitely get some pigtures posted soon!
 
Hi

Welcome to the world of sow groups. Human soaps have nothing on them! :yikes:

I would recommend to try her with Mr Parsnip and Daisy in a formal intro to see whether that is heading in the right direction or not. Abort the moment any tension is coming down between the bonded pair or the pair is making it clear that they are not open to a third piggy so Maple can return straight back to her group (if needed, after a little wipe with a damp cloth to remove the worst of any scent marking pee fest).

These kind of tester bondings are how I usually work out interpersonal group issues and work down through my own options - if they work out, great; if not, then there is nothing lost. You get a bit more of a feel which direction a bonding is heading more quickly but these tester bondings have lasted anything of all of three minutes with an overexcited neutered boar to several days in a near miss where one member of the new group was not happy with the new arrival or the leadership could not be resolved and the existing group eventually closed ranks against the newbie.

Any piggy that I shift out of a situation that is not obviously broken I give the chance to meet the previous mates through bars once the new bond is past the worst of the new group establishment . If the new bond has worked, they will ignore their old mates. If they do their best to get back with them, then the new bond has failed and I let them back - this is however rare. But this is my method of ensuring that my shifting piggies around is happening with their consent and that they are happy with the move. I probably have more failed tester bondings than successes but I also have the reassurance that I have given my piggies as much of a say in who they want to be with as possible without a way to ask them directly.

I think that this will also hopefully give you some of the answers you are looking for - is Maple still happy where she is and are Mr Parsnip and Daisy actually open for new company?
Thanks for your advice! I will give Maple a go with Mr Parsnip and Daisy. I just worry that he will be a little over-exuberant and frighten her! But it’s definitely worth a try and hopefully he will behave himself. Is there anything particular I should bear in mind when bonding an excitable boy with a sow who has only ever lived with girls? Or can I just proceed like a normal bonding attempt?

I won’t have time to keep an eye on a bonding properly until Friday due to work commitments and Maple looked so sad after Gloria chased her again this evening, that I’ve put a barrier down the middle to make two 2x5 cages. Maple is happily munching away next to Cornflake now, and Gloria is rumbling about with Harriet who takes absolutely no notice at all. So I suppose that if all else fails, I’ll just have to keep them as two pairs of girls. I feel like I’m giving up on my herd that has worked so well for such a long time, but it seems like it’s not meant to be at the moment!

You are right though, what a load of drama - it’s far better than tv :eek:
 
Thanks for your advice! I will give Maple a go with Mr Parsnip and Daisy. I just worry that he will be a little over-exuberant and frighten her! But it’s definitely worth a try and hopefully he will behave himself. Is there anything particular I should bear in mind when bonding an excitable boy with a sow who has only ever lived with girls? Or can I just proceed like a normal bonding attempt?

I won’t have time to keep an eye on a bonding properly until Friday due to work commitments and Maple looked so sad after Gloria chased her again this evening, that I’ve put a barrier down the middle to make two 2x5 cages. Maple is happily munching away next to Cornflake now, and Gloria is rumbling about with Harriet who takes absolutely no notice at all. So I suppose that if all else fails, I’ll just have to keep them as two pairs of girls. I feel like I’m giving up on my herd that has worked so well for such a long time, but it seems like it’s not meant to be at the moment!

You are right though, what a load of drama - it’s far better than tv :eek:

How old is Gloria and have you considered having her checked for ovarian cysts? Constant rumbling and irritating other sows, especially between the age of 2-4 years, can be a major pointer.

The majority of cysts doesn't cause physical symptoms. Behavioural changes are a better alert. Most ovarian cysts go unnoticed; about three quarters or even more sows are estimated to develop them.



The problem with groups is that they are a dynamic and not a static institution, so they evolve and change constantly with the interplay of the dfferent personalities. The big problem with sows is that their hormone output is never reduced making them more difficult once they are past the natural pup-bearing age and average life span (ca. 3 years) of their wild ancestor species.

If you are interested in what makes piggies tick, then you may find this link here fascinating:



I've had so far about 20 neutered boars and ca. 70 sows (a few spayed ones but mostly not) in all sorts of combinations in my life. Boredom is not an option!

PS: If your girls are noticeably happier with the divider, then go with it. the good news is that because they have not fallen out, they will usually go back together again within a minimum of fuss since they know where they stand in relation to the others. I've had three or four old ladies groups that have seen each other out by now that for several years in between lived in different groups or pairs but that recognised each other.
 
How old is Gloria and have you considered having her checked for ovarian cysts? Constant rumbling and irritating other sows, especially between the age of 2-4 years, can be a major pointer.

The majority of cysts doesn't cause physical symptoms. Behavioural changes are a better alert. Most ovarian cysts go unnoticed; about three quarters or even more sows are estimated to develop them.

[EMBED content="thread-209706"]

Yes I think I’ll ask her vet to scan her ovaries at her heart medication review next Tuesday. She is 5 years old. It’s a difficult one as I wouldn’t put her under anaesthetic for spay given her heart disease, but we could definitely look at medical management if it was indicated. I’m actually a vet myself but I bow to the greater knowledge of exotics vets when it comes to my precious piggies - dogs and cats are unfortunately where my expertise lies!

Maple is like a different pig after a few minutes of a barrier being up. I feel so bad that I haven’t done it sooner! Looking back, it’s definitely started since she was spayed which is a shame. I didn’t even separate her after the op, she went straight back in with the group, but obviously Gloria has taken offence about the whole thing and is unwilling to change her opinion now. Perhaps Maple had made a bid for dominance whilst she still had her cystic ovaries and that caused the original upset? Who knows.

Gloria is currently having a tantrum trying to get through the divider and Maple is merrily munching on her hay in safety a few centimetres away. Harriet doesn’t care, too busy daydreaming about pea flakes. Cornflake wouldn’t mind if she lived with one pig or ten pigs as long as her dinner is still served on time. So peace seems to be restored … for now, at least!

Thanks for all your help and reassurance - this forum is a wonderful place for all of us worried piggy parents 🥰[/embed]
 
[EMBED content="thread-209706"]

Yes I think I’ll ask her vet to scan her ovaries at her heart medication review next Tuesday. She is 5 years old. It’s a difficult one as I wouldn’t put her under anaesthetic for spay given her heart disease, but we could definitely look at medical management if it was indicated. I’m actually a vet myself but I bow to the greater knowledge of exotics vets when it comes to my precious piggies - dogs and cats are unfortunately where my expertise lies!

Maple is like a different pig after a few minutes of a barrier being up. I feel so bad that I haven’t done it sooner! Looking back, it’s definitely started since she was spayed which is a shame. I didn’t even separate her after the op, she went straight back in with the group, but obviously Gloria has taken offence about the whole thing and is unwilling to change her opinion now. Perhaps Maple had made a bid for dominance whilst she still had her cystic ovaries and that caused the original upset? Who knows.

Gloria is currently having a tantrum trying to get through the divider and Maple is merrily munching on her hay in safety a few centimetres away. Harriet doesn’t care, too busy daydreaming about pea flakes. Cornflake wouldn’t mind if she lived with one pig or ten pigs as long as her dinner is still served on time. So peace seems to be restored … for now, at least!

Thanks for all your help and reassurance - this forum is a wonderful place for all of us worried piggy parents 🥰[/embed]

It can just be the different smell/pheromone output from the op. We have seen cases on here where one sister just decided out of the blue that the other was no longer a welcome part of her group, even though they had been together for years all their lives and that was basically it. :yikes:

Risking a ovariectomy or a spay with a heart piggy is not something I would like to undertake, either. :(
See how the pairs are doing and take it from there. 5 years is a good age and everything more is a bonus, as far as I am concerned. You can never choose what health issues and when they crop up; you have to just manage and go along as best as you can in fast forward, compared to other pet species.
When it comes to piggy groups, never take anything for granted, think out of the box and go with what works. The more you get to know them, the more complex they become. Humans don't have anything on them.
 
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