Vet unwilling to refer piggy to Cat & Rabbit clinic

[Qualcast&Flymo]

I'm wondering what to do. I took my 3 for a general check up just before Christmas, they haven't had one for over 2 years due to the pandemic. Fortunately the only problem needing the vet in all that time was Winifred's haypoke last autumn.
However this time the vet identified that Squeaks had uneven incisors. She burred them back to a nice straight edge but said that there may be an underlying problem that caused it and if so he would need to go in for investigation etc under general anaesthetic. I'm not hugely keen on that, Squeaks is 6 years old now and although he has never had any health issues I imagine his age makes GA more risky - and also I get the impression that dental issues aren't often solved with one visit, and repeated GAs would only increase any risk. So I asked if she would be happy to refer him to a vet that could do dentals without GA (ie C&R). Unfortunately she said should would not, on first thought,as she thought that not using anaesthetic would be painful and possibly cruel for the piggy. She then said she would consider it if the vet in question would provide information to her as to how they carry out the dental work so she could decide if it would be unacceptably painful or not.

My problem is, is it okay for me to ask Cat & Rabbit for this information? I wouldn't want to offend Simon Maddock. i don't quite know how to approach them about it..
But I need to get him looked at again very soon as I could just about see when I checked Squeaks yesterday that his incisors have gone uneven again. He seems to be eating normally, tucking into mouthfuls of grass and chomping nuggets without any problem, but I guess something must be causing the unevenness.

 

[LilyandNugget]

sry to hear abt that. I’m not sure whether I can help with this but if they take in guinea pigs, then mayb u could give it a go? Hope that u get to the bottom of this! Sending healing vibes!

 

[Wiebke]

I'm wondering what to do. I took my 3 for a general check up just before Christmas, they haven't had one for over 2 years due to the pandemic. Fortunately the only problem needing the vet in all that time was Winifred's haypoke last autumn.
However this time the vet identified that Squeaks had uneven incisors. She burred them back to a nice straight edge but said that there may be an underlying problem that caused it and if so he would need to go in for investigation etc under general anaesthetic. I'm not hugely keen on that, Squeaks is 6 years old now and although he has never had any health issues I imagine his age makes GA more risky - and also I get the impression that dental issues aren't often solved with one visit, and repeated GAs would only increase any risk. So I asked if she would be happy to refer him to a vet that could do dentals without GA (ie C&R). Unfortunately she said should would not, on first thought,as she thought that not using anaesthetic would be painful and possibly cruel for the piggy. She then said she would consider it if the vet in question would provide information to her as to how they carry out the dental work so she could decide if it would be unacceptably painful or not.

My problem is, is it okay for me to ask Cat & Rabbit for this information? I wouldn't want to offend Simon Maddock. i don't quite know how to approach them about it..
But I need to get him looked at again very soon as I could just about see when I checked Squeaks yesterday that his incisors have gone uneven again. He seems to be eating normally, tucking into mouthfuls of grass and chomping nuggets without any problem, but I guess something must be causing the unevenness.

Just ring up the C&R - they are used to the scepticism. Simon is usually willing to speak to other vets.
All the best!

 

[Swissgreys]

Honestly Simon is super kind and helpful and I would contact him and explain the dilemma.
He helped me out a lot when we were struggling with Eddi's dental issues, and was more than happy to send an e-mail to my vet at the time with some suggestions.
And I live in Switzerland, so it's not like I was ever going to be a client of theirs!

 

[VickiA]

I don’t honestly think it’s one vet’s prerogative to decide where your pet should have treatment, as long as it’s with another qualified vet. I would just phone C&R and explain the situation. You may not need a formal referral.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

I don’t honestly think it’s one vet’s prerogative to decide where your pet should have treatment, as long as it’s with another qualified vet. I would just phone C&R and explain the situation. You may not need a formal referral.

Honestly Simon is super kind and helpful and I would contact him and explain the dilemma.
He helped me out a lot when we were struggling with Eddi's dental issues, and was more than happy to send an e-mail to my vet at the time with some suggestions.
And I live in Switzerland, so it's not like I was ever going to be a client of theirs!

Thank you, yes Simon is great, he was excellent when I took Winifred with her worrying lump. I wouldn't even ask my usual vet for a referral, but I understand from other recent threads that C&R are only taking new patients by referrals now as they're so busy. I'll give the clinic a call and see if they can email me the necessary info - then keep my fingers crossed my vet is persuaded!

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

If you are already a client of Cat and Rabbit Clinic you won't need a referral. However, if you would prefer Simon to speak with your vet, then just give him a ring and ask him if he can reasure your vet xx

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

It doesn't matter that Simon hasn't seen this particular piggy of yours. You are registered, so you can just phone and ask for an appointment and register your piggy with them x

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

By the way, there is no pain involved whatsoever, with regard to filing the teeth. The only pain would be if the teeth have ulcerated the soft tissue in the mouth, or if the guinea pig has an abscess that is causing pressure and pain xx

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

If you are already a client of Cat and Rabbit Clinic you won't need a referral. However, if you would prefer Simon to speak with your vet, then just give him a ring and ask him if he can reasure your vet xx

Thanks Debbie. You've also just answered my next question, Squeaks hasn't been treated at C&R but hopefully I'm still registered (it was over 2 years ago that I took Winifred). I'm torn as to whether to just go straight to Simon or whether to try to persuade my vet that his specialist work is a valuable asset to the piggy world...

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Thanks Debbie. You've also just answered my next question, Squeaks hasn't been treated at C&R but hopefully I'm still registered (it was over 2 years ago that I took Winifred). I'm torn as to whether to just go straight to Simon or whether to try to persuade my vet that his specialist work is a valuable asset to the piggy world...

You will definitely still be registered. Maybe just go and see Simon, but ask him if he would be willing to speak with your vet, as she has concerns about the procedure being painful. I am sure Simon would be happy to reassure her xx

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Thanks Debbie. Just a couple of thoughts ... the use or not of GA is relevant if it turns out that his molars are overgrowing and that's what is causing the uneven incisors. But is that inevitably what is happening? If he has an abscess or similar and is eating oddly as a result, could his molars still be worn normally? He seems to be eating normally still.

I presume that if it is an abscess GA would be needed to deal with that.

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Thanks Debbie. Just a couple of thoughts ... the use or not of GA is relevant if it turns out that his molars are overgrowing and that's what is causing the uneven incisors. But is that inevitably what is happening? If he has an abscess or similar and is eating oddly as a result, could his molars still be worn normally? He seems to be eating normally still.

I presume that if it is an abscess GA would be needed to deal with that.

If he's eating normally, I very much doubt it's an abscess as that would be painful. In most cases GA would be needed, unless it was just under the skin. It sounds like any dental issues, if any, are going to be subtle and probably linked to maybe a slightly arthritic jaw, due to his age. xx

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

If he's eating normally, I very much doubt it's an abscess as that would be painful. In most cases GA would be needed, unless it was just under the skin. It sounds like any dental issues, if any, are going to be subtle and probably linked to maybe a slightly arthritic jaw, due to his age. xx

I hadn't thought of arthritis (in the jaw it sounds like something I should be suffering from due to my incessant nagging of my kids!). Is there a chance then that his molars are unaffected by whatever is causing his incisor problem?

I phoned C&R, but the receptionist to whom I spoke was unwilling to pass on any request from me for information to Simon or Kim. He said I should get my vet to email or telephone them herself. That would mean a delay while I waited for an appointment and she requested and received the info. I wouldn't want any delay to make Squeaks' problem worse. But I don't want to offend my own vet by bypassing her entirely either, she was very good when Zebedee was unwell for so long. Aaargggh!

Time to put my thinking cap on and decide on the best way forward ...

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

I hadn't thought of arthritis (in the jaw it sounds like something I should be suffering from due to my incessant nagging of my kids!). Is there a chance then that his molars are unaffected by whatever is causing his incisor problem?

I phoned C&R, but the receptionist to whom I spoke was unwilling to pass on any request from me for information to Simon or Kim. He said I should get my vet to email or telephone them herself. That would mean a delay while I waited for an appointment and she requested and received the info. I wouldn't want any delay to make Squeaks' problem worse. But I don't want to offend my own vet by bypassing her entirely either, she was very good when Zebedee was unwell for so long. Aaargggh!

Time to put my thinking cap on and decide on the best way forward ...

I would think there is going to be some subtle changes to the molars, but like you say, he's eating well at the moment, so it's not imperitive that he's seen immediately. I would press ahead with getting your vet to contact Simon, as I think it would be very useful for her to liaise with him and find out exactly how he treats these dental guinea pigs and how well they cope with the treatment. I have a log cabin full of piggies, enjoying life, who would've been dead, a long time ago, if it wasn't for Simon and Kim xx

 

[Bill & Ted]

If you are registered then you should be able to just book an appointment, it’s the pet owner who is registered not the actual animal as far as I know x
Simon gave my Ted another 2.5 years of a happy and healthy life, he died of an unrelated kidney issue at nearly 6 years of age.
The piggie pig is sat on a table on all four feet, a nurse holds the rear end, a dental gag is place in their mouth and a cheek separator opens up the cheeks to see inside. Simon uses very tiny little files to gently file down an molar spurs.
For incisors he uses a tiny dental burr. He places his finger nail behind the incisors and from that can tell when he is about to be through the teeth, then he uses a small file to sharpen the teeth and angle it correctly so the Guinea pig can chew food. It all takes about 5-10 at the most and your piggie comes out with no after effects whatsoever. I think it’s far safer and less cruel than all the GA issues that piggies often have to suffer, like bloat and disorientation. plus he really is “the expert”

 

[Dilly's Piggies]

I remember back when I had two piggies with ovarian cysts that needed a spay and a boar with elongated roots and a dental abscess that needed sorting, I wanted Simon to do it instead of my regular vet. I didn't need to get a referral, I just contacted Simon and he was happy to help, he did all 3 piggies on the same day at pretty much a moments notice. He really is a great vet and has always been welcoming and happy to help even though he's not my regular vet, he liased with my vet too since he's far from me, all post op stuff was done with my regular vet under Simon's guidance.

I understand things have changed though and you may need a referral, I think it should be your decision where your piggie gets treatment and your vet shouldn't be offended or unwilling to respect your wishes. I didn't feel bad taking mine to Simon and I don't regret that decision either, he did a great job with all my piggies, other vets recommended euthanasia for my dental boar but Simon fixed him in one surgery and he lived 3 more years with no more issues (died at age 6 from unrelated issue.)

As others have suggested keep trying to talk with your vet and also keep trying to contact Simon, I hope you can get an appointment with him and your piggie gets better soon ❤

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

I would think there is going to be some subtle changes to the molars, but like you say, he's eating well at the moment, so it's not imperitive that he's seen immediately. I would press ahead with getting your vet to contact Simon, as I think it would be very useful for her to liaise with him and find out exactly how he treats these dental guinea pigs and how well they cope with the treatment. I have a log cabin full of piggies, enjoying life, who would've been dead, a long time ago, if it wasn't for Simon and Kim xx

Thank you Debbie, I was thinking along those lines too. I made an appointment today to see my 'usual' vet, unfortunately the earliest I could get is next Wednesday (26th). I've asked to be put on the cancellations list for her incase to try to get one earlier. In the meantime I guess I'd better weigh Squeaks more frequently to ensure he really is eating normally/enough. (I usually weigh them every 4-5 days). Then we'll see if she can see what is going on at all.

Thanks @Bill & Ted , I will give her your "from the piggie's mouth" description of how it's done. And the fact that most piggies start eating again straight after their treatment, unlike with GA dentistry. That surely shows that it isn't cruelly painful for the piggy!

 

[anyar.dris]

We usually just get a booking with Simon/Kim when we figure out the local/nearer vet is running out of ideas how to treat our piggies. If it turns out dental related issues, we make bookings to C&R right away. We don't even ask for referrals to C&R because we are registered with them already anyway. We treat it like getting a 2nd opinion, which usually ends up the right thing for us anyway.

There will always be vets that are against what Simon/Kim are doing because of course it is not the norm. But with plenty of proof that what Simon&Kim do have saved plenty of dental piggies' lives or extended it, then I can only see it as positive.

 

[Lisanjake]

I haven’t had a chance to read what everyone else has said, but just call or email the cat and rabbit clinic!
I was told by my vet that my piggie wouldn’t eat again and won’t live past a few months.
Well I wasn’t having that and called Simon and they managed to squeeze me in and take care of Winnie who is eating just fine now

 

[Lisanjake]

I emailed the c&r and Simon called me at 7:30pm asking for all the info about Winnie, told me if I needed anymore help to call up and book in.
Like you, the day before when I called they said I needed a referral and they couldn’t take on new clients.
As soon as I got there Simon picked up that Winnie in fact had an abscess which caused her incisors slanting (bear in mind she wasn’t eating any hay, and a very small amount of soft veg for herself)
He straight away took her in and drained the abscess which relieved her off the pain and weeks later she was eating hay again much to my relief!
Just keep pushing on for an appointment

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

@Qualcast&Flymo The fact your vet wants to know more, I feel is very positive. I am getting so upset by the attitude of some vets, who just say it is wrong, without finding out any more about it. I was recently called a charlatan, by the vet of someone who was surrendering their guinea pig to TEAS. I find that very offensive, especially as they don't even know me!

I recently had a guinea pig board with me, who had been seen by another vet, who couldn't find anything wrong with the teeth at all and was wanting to conduct lots of expensive tests and scans, as they said it was most definitely not dental. Luckily they were okay with referring to Simon/Kim and I took the guinea pig to Kim, who immediately found a tiny spur and ulceration at the back of the mouth, as well as an area of infection, further forward in the mouth. Kim said that to be fair to the other vet, with the guinea pig under anaesthetic, when the mouth goes all floppy, it would've been impossible to see the very back of the mouth and also, due to being under GA, the blood pressure would drop, so the area of inflammation, that she immediately spotted, where there was infection, wouldn't have been obvious! The guinea pig made a complete recovery and is no longer needing dental work.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

If he's eating normally, I very much doubt it's an abscess as that would be painful. In most cases GA would be needed, unless it was just under the skin. It sounds like any dental issues, if any, are going to be subtle and probably linked to maybe a slightly arthritic jaw, due to his age. xx

I took Squeaks back to the vet today, as his incisors seemed to have gone wrong again. Before I made the appointment last week I could just prise his lips open enough to see that both top and bottom were slanted but apparently matching.
Today though the vet was much better than me and she showed me that one of the lower incisors has completely worn away or broken off

I don't know when or how it happened - I thought they were OK yesterday when I checked him, but it was hard to see.
The gums underneath looked a bit inflamed too. She's given me some Metacam to relieve pain caused by the inflammation. She agrees the cause could be arthritis in the jaw, which the Metacam will help with, and said I should keep an eye out for unusual eating or weight changes, and we'll see how he gets on ie whether the tooth grows back, and they stay even etc.
She's also going to show some pics to one if their other vets, who's recently joined but has worked lots with guineas, see what she thinks.

So it doesn't look as though his main issue is overgrowing molars, which I guess is a good thing. Yet to work out what the problem is, but at least Squeaks is still eating well and more or less maintaining weight.

As a last note, the Metacam is only 0.2ml once a day, which is very low if I recall correctly. Do I take a chance on giving that twice daily without asking my vet, if/as 0.2 once won't help much if he's eating unevenly due to arthritic pain in the jaw?

 

[VickiA]

I took Squeaks back to the vet today, as his incisors seemed to have gone wrong again. Before I made the appointment last week I could just prise his lips open enough to see that both top and bottom were slanted but apparently matching.
Today though the vet was much better than me and she showed me that one of the lower incisors has completely worn away or broken off
View attachment 194840
I don't know when or how it happened - I thought they were OK yesterday when I checked him, but it was hard to see.
The gums underneath looked a bit inflamed too. She's given me some Metacam to relieve pain caused by the inflammation. She agrees the cause could be arthritis in the jaw, which the Metacam will help with, and said I should keep an eye out for unusual eating or weight changes, and we'll see how he gets on ie whether the tooth grows back, and they stay even etc.
She's also going to show some pics to one if their other vets, who's recently joined but has worked lots with guineas, see what she thinks.

So it doesn't look as though his main issue is overgrowing molars, which I guess is a good thing. Yet to work out what the problem is, but at least Squeaks is still eating well and more or less maintaining weight.

As a last note, the Metacam is only 0.2ml once a day, which is very low if I recall correctly. Do I take a chance on giving that twice daily without asking my vet, if/as 0.2 once won't help much if he's eating unevenly due to arthritic pain in the jaw?

That’s a really low dose and you could safely give that twice a day.

 

[Lisanjake]

Oh no
Yes 0.2 once a day is low and it wears off after about 12 hours so I’d say give twice.
My girl weights 1kg just, and has 0.5ml twice a day for her teeth issues x

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Can anyone tell me what the max safe Metacam dose is for longterm use please? And if anyone can point me to professional articles about guineas and Metacam that would be even better.

I'm calling my vet later today to see if her more guinea-experienced colleague has had suggestions regarding the uneven wear of Squeaks' incisors (and the break last week). If she also thinks it is arthritis in the jaw, or another pain-related issue, presumably he will need to be on pain relief long term. When my vet got me the metacam last week, she checked the leaflet on the box for the dose, and therefore gave me tiny dose of 0.2 ml once a day of cat version, in a 3ml bottle. I've been actually giving him 0.1-0.2ml twice a day, and have run out today. I want to be sure that he is getting enough long term to relieve any pain - and to not have to be having to go and get a new bottle every week.

At the moment (last checked on monday) his weight was stable and his teeth seemed reasonably even so maybe at the mo a low dose is enough, but I imagine the pain will get worse as time goes on..

 

[Lisanjake]

Can anyone tell me what the max safe Metacam dose is for longterm use please? And if anyone can point me to professional articles about guineas and Metacam that would be even better.

I'm calling my vet later today to see if her more guinea-experienced colleague has had suggestions regarding the uneven wear of Squeaks' incisors (and the break last week). If she also thinks it is arthritis in the jaw, or another pain-related issue, presumably he will need to be on pain relief long term. When my vet got me the metacam last week, she checked the leaflet on the box for the dose, and therefore gave me tiny dose of 0.2 ml once a day of cat version, in a 3ml bottle. I've been actually giving him 0.1-0.2ml twice a day, and have run out today. I want to be sure that he is getting enough long term to relieve any pain - and to not have to be having to go and get a new bottle every week.

At the moment (last checked on monday) his weight was stable and his teeth seemed reasonably even so maybe at the mo a low dose is enough, but I imagine the pain will get worse as time goes on..

Oh bless him, that doesnt seem a very high dose at all, i give 0.5ml (dog dose) twice a day and i get a 30ml bottle so that lasts me a month.
I'm not sure about long term though winnies been on that for about 3 months now.

 

[Betsy]

Obviously each case is different, but I had Christian on 0.7ml dog Metacam twice a day for 13 months (vet prescribed) until I was able to reduce it by 0.5ml gradually (under vet guidance) to a maintenance dose of 0.5ml twice a day. At the time, my vet had just been on a course and had learnt that guinea pigs can tolerate much larger doses of Metacam so was willing to try Christian on a higher dose than she would normally prescribe. It was a choice between a pain free shorter life or a longer life with pain. The vet and I both chose the former because a life full of pain is not at all nice.

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

I've also given higher doses of dog metacam long term, as in years! Kim was saying that whilst they initially thought that long term use might shorten life, they had found that it seems to lengthen life, as if they are pain free and comfortable, they continue to eat well and live longer!

 

[Wiebke]

I echo @furryfriends (TEAS) experience.

My Nerys (who lived to 8 years and had to be pts because of an unrelated issue) was on 0.15 going up 0.25 ml of dog metacam twice daily (that is 0.9-1.5 ml of cat metacam once a day) for her own arthritis issues. Metacam dosages in the intervening 5 years have gone up and not down.

My Barri has been 0.25 ml of dog metacam twice daily for the last two years for his gut issue; I up that to 0.4 ml twice daily during any bad acute bout when he is screaming in pain. He is still there, coming up to 6 years now.