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Vet suggesting pellets are dangerous?

AbbieMiddleton

AbbieMiddleton

Junior Guinea Pig
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Hi all,

Hope everyone is safe and well?

I'm currently floating around the Internet gathering advice after a super bizarre vet visit and I thought coming on here to pick your mighty brains would help!

My vet has just recommended that I fully remove all pellets from my Guinea pig's diet as they're dangerous. Has anyone else heard this before?! She's insisted all my pigs come off pellets immediately because they can swell and cause intestinal damage.

I use Burgess' blackcurrant pellets which all three pigs share and the vet just took an hour and a half to diagnose a tummy upset with one of my girls which ALWAYS happens after they prescribe Baytril. We took her in because her faeces have been inconsistent after finishing the antibiotics, she has been frantically eating the poop from my other pigs and she sounded a little gassy. She's eating, drinking, moving around, sleeping soundly on me, shows no signs of discomfort and while her belly feels a tiny bit bloated it's not particularly firm.

They wanted to do a full sedation x-ray but eventually settled on an injection to treat possible GI issues and we have an ongoing prescription to continue to treat it. (After another practice stepped in.)

Bumble is over 5 years old, could the pellets really be causing all this? Do I listen to the advice and remove all pellets?
 
Sorry, that is not something I have ever come across or heard of. We recommend no more than 1 tablespoon per piggy per day max and are following RSPCA recommendations in that. The more hay and grass fibre your piggies eat, the better for long term health and longevity but piggies of mine that have started out on the then common higher pellet portions a decade ago or earlier have still lived to celebrate their 8th birthday...

I would however recommend to take your girl off fresh veg and also pellets if you wish to (1 tablespoon is in the region of a dessert course) and just have her on hay. You can see whether poo soup from another health companion helps to restore the gut microbiome that has been badly effected by the baytril. It is known to be quite harsh on it and some piggies are more sensitive to it than others.
You can find the recipe for 'poo soup' (i.e. live healthy gut microbiome transfer) in this link here. When done absolutely freshly each time, it is more effective than probiotic powder.
Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

I would however not blame pellets for bloating issues after a course of baytril (the culprit is right under your nose) and rather ask your vet to please consider treating with also licensed sulfatrim instead. It is not quite as harsh on the gut bacteria. Soft poos and diarrhea are more common when on baytril but bloating can and does happen. My Teggy had it when she was put on baytril in the wake of her emergency urethral stone operation by my local vet as they didn't have sulfatrim in house.
 
:agr:
But also I’d recommend getting some probiotic for her. Especially since this seems to be caused by antibiotic, it might help put some of the good bacteria back into her tummy.
I use biolapis and buy it from eBay. My senior pig is permanently on probiotic as his poos get beyond awful when we stop it.
 
Thank you both.

She's always a bit gassy and upset after Baytril. No diarrhoea at all! We took her in simply because her poop has been swapping between being absolutely perfect to being too small and she was being picky. She lost a little weight while on Baytril but seems to be maintaining her weight daily now.

I do have some probiotic I can give her, she has also been given an injection to get her guts moving properly, a painkiller and a prescription for vetergesic.

She went to the vet largely fine but appears terrified and in discomfort now.

Edit to add that the vet has told us to buy and give Infacol.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Thank you both.

She's always a bit gassy and upset after Baytril. No diarrhoea at all! We took her in simply because her poop has been swapping between being absolutely perfect to being too small and she was being picky. She lost a little weight while on Baytril but seems to be maintaining her weight daily now.

I do have some probiotic I can give her, she has also been given an injection to get her guts moving properly, a painkiller and a prescription for vetergesic.

She went to the vet largely fine but appears terrified and in discomfort now.
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I would recommend to not follow up on the vetergesic. Guinea pigs do not react as well to it as other pet species. what gut stimulant has she been given?

Please monitor her food intake with weighing daily at the same time and step in with feeding support. Keep in mind that the smaller poos are reflect a period of low hay intake a day before.

Here is our guide for digestive problems, which has been proof-read by an experienced, long term guinea pig keeping vet nurse; especially the medications: Digestive Disorders: Diarrhea - Bloat - GI Stasis (No Gut Movement) And Not Eating
 
Emeprid is what we have been given as a prescription but I don't know if that's what was given then and there. I'm not actually sure why she was given a painkiller either as we never said she was in discomfort. I'm holding her now and she seems awful! She was absolutely fine when she went in but now she's hunched up and barely responding to me. She seems terrified.

Her stomach actually feels firmer now than when she went in. I'm assuming it's all the manhandling...?
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Emeprid is what we have been given as a prescription but I don't know if that's what was given then and there. I'm not actually sure why she was given a painkiller either as we never said she was in discomfort. I'm holding her now and she seems awful! She was absolutely fine when she went in but now she's hunched up and barely responding to me. She seems terrified.

Her stomach actually feels firmer now than when she went in. I'm assuming it's all the manhandling...?
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Poor girl!

Emeprid is a good gut drug for piggies. Metacam is an analgesic; not just a painkiller but also an anti-inflammatory.

You can contact the clinic to check whether the injection is emeprid or how soon she can have it; it should be in her file.

Please take the time to read the chapter on bloat in our digestive problems guide. Most of it is about life-threatening severe bloat but the medications are the ones that work best for guinea pigs. Unfortunately general vets are not necessarily aware of that unless they are treating guinea pigs frequently and have read up more on rodents.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
She's been given metoclopramide and vetergesic already by the vet, how worried should I be?
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See a vet if she is not picking up. Metoclop is not a problem; it just makes her poo a lot for a while. But if she remains poorly from the vetergesic (which is often used as a GA drug), then please see a vet but maybe another one.

Please step in with syringe feeding support to keep her gut going. I am sorry.
 
The metroclopramide and emeprid are the same thing, a gut motility drug and can usually be given up to 3 times a day, evenly spaced out. Metacam is a non steroidal anti inflammatory pain relief, so she will benefit from them both. Vetergesic is a very powerful pain relief but also suppresses appetite so may not be ideal as it is important to keep her eating and her guts moving. If she has stopped eating you will need to help her out with syringe feeding.

With regard to your question about pellets being dangerous I have never heard of a problem with them swelling up in the guts but it is thought a diet high in pellets can lead to an imbalance of gut bacteria, with the result of an increased risk of bloat, etc when given antibiotics
 
Thanks for the information. Usually we get given Metacam but the vet insisted that wasn't strong enough. Again, despite Bumble not showing any signs of pain. The vet also said the painkiller injection was a half dose and wouldn't cause sedation but she's completely sedated right now. I'm hand feeding her and offering water. If this continues we intend to take Bumble to Matlock instead to see The Guinea Pig Vet. I'm absolutely furious that she went in fine and came out two hours later a shell of her former self.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Thanks for the information. Usually we get given Metacam but the vet insisted that wasn't strong enough. Again, despite Bumble not showing any signs of pain. The vet also said the painkiller injection was a half dose and wouldn't cause sedation but she's completely sedated right now. I'm hand feeding her and offering water. If this continues we intend to take Bumble to Matlock instead to see The Guinea Pig Vet. I'm absolutely furious that she went in fine and came out two hours later a shell of her former self.
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BIG HUGS

I hope that you can get her through this fine!
 
I’m so sorry Bumble is poorly - sending healing hugs to you all
 
Thank you all.

Bumble seems a little more "with it" today. Several times during the night we thought she'd slipped quietly away because she couldn't/wouldn't move and her breathing was so shallow it was undetectable. She was so heavily sedated that she was like a posable figurine and it was terrifying. She was literally stiff in places, I've never seen anything like it.

At about 6am she carefully waddled over to her water bottle and drank quite a lot. She is nibbling hay and lettuce too. Fortunately I didn't have to make poo soup as she's taken to sitting with her nose directly under her cage-mates bum; much to his delight. She's filling up on heaps of his poop.

I'm not keen to give her any Vetergesic. Is it ok to give her the Emeprid alone? She doesn't seem in any pain (never did!) but the Emeprid won't cause her pain issues which need to be treated simultaneously, will it? I've been told it's 1ml 4 times a day but the vet originally said 3 times a day and I'd prefer to go with that as it matches a lot of advice on here.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Thank you all.

Bumble seems a little more "with it" today. Several times during the night we thought she'd slipped quietly away because she couldn't/wouldn't move and her breathing was so shallow it was undetectable. She was so heavily sedated that she was like a posable figurine and it was terrifying. She was literally stiff in places, I've never seen anything like it.

At about 6am she carefully waddled over to her water bottle and drank quite a lot. She is nibbling hay and lettuce too. Fortunately I didn't have to make poo soup as she's taken to sitting with her nose directly under her cage-mates bum; much to his delight. She's filling up on heaps of his poop.

I'm not keen to give her any Vetergesic. Is it ok to give her the Emeprid alone? She doesn't seem in any pain (never did!) but the Emeprid won't cause her pain issues which need to be treated simultaneously, will it? I've been told it's 1ml 4 times a day but the vet originally said 3 times a day and I'd prefer to go with that as it matches a lot of advice on here.
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Emeprid won't cause her pain. It is a gut motility drug, meaning it helps the gut regain its natural rhythm. Are you sure you mean 1ml and not 0.1 ml? When ever I have used it, the dose prescribed has been between 0.1 and 0.15 ml depending on the size of the pig.
If she was mine I would be reluctant to give the vetergesic unless in a huge amount of pain because it will flatten her again. Metacam in high doses is usually the preferred option used by piggy savvy vets where a normal size dose is not enough.
 
I've just checked the bottle and it's definitely 1ml. Wow, I feel even more nervous now. I honestly don't know what to do. I've been giving her 1ml as per instructions. We asked about Metacam instead of Vetergesic as I had concerns and her response was "I'd like to know what diplomas and degrees people on forums have. Don't believe everything you read on forums."

Am I causing her harm by giving 1ml? I'm really worried.
 
Did you take her to see Ellie the guinea pig vet? She gives very high metacam doses. She gave one of mine 1.5ml twice a day and another 1ml twice a day. There’s no harm in giving her the 1ml, however when I spoke to Simon (best guinea pig vet in the country) he thought the dosage was quite high.
 
Sorry for the poor quality photo, I can try and take another. They're now closed so I can't check the dosage.
 

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AbbieMiddleton said:
. .We asked about Metacam instead of Vetergesic as I had concerns and her response was "I'd like to know what diplomas and degrees people on forums have. Don't believe everything you read on forums."
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I hate it when vets don't listen to some suggestions and make comments like that. Whenever we hear things like that in the past, hubby and I stopped going there and look for better vets. Thankfully we found Cat & Rabbit.

We once went to a vet practice and the regular exotics vet was on leave. So we saw the other vet and ask for advice. She told us our guinea pig needs to lose weight coz he is obese. That guinea pig should just be around 700g. We never came back after. She won't listen to our explanation why we think he's not obese. Didn't help that the exotic vet moved to another practice as well.
 
Little Ones said:
Did you take her to see Ellie the guinea pig vet? She gives very high metacam doses. She gave one of mine 1.5ml twice a day and another 1ml twice a day. There’s no harm in giving her the 1ml, however when I spoke to Simon (best guinea pig vet in the country) he thought the dosage was quite high.
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We haven't taken Bumble anywhere today. She's recovering fairly well considering how traumatised she was yesterday.
 
anyar.dris said:
I hate it when vets don't listen to some suggestions and make comments like that. Whenever we hear things like that in the past, hubby and I stopped going there and look for better vets. Thankfully we found Cat & Rabbit.

We once went to a vet practice and the regular exotics vet was on leave. So we saw the other vet and ask for advice. She told us our guinea pig needs to lose weight coz he is obese. That guinea pig should just be around 700g. We never came back after. She won't losten to our explanation why we think he's not obese. Didn't help that the exotic vet moved to another practice as well.
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We were told last week that our boar is overweight.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
We haven't taken Bumble anywhere today. She's recovering fairly well considering how traumatised she was yesterday.
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I mean was it Ellie who has prescribed the metacam dosage?
Also normal fully grown piggy weight I believe is between 1100-1400g, but I’ve had 3 pigs who were almost at 1500. I don’t think guinea pigs can really ‘get’ overweight due to their fast metabolism and their purpose being to eat constantly and I don’t think they ever exceed 1500. You can’t exactly diet a guinea pig either as they need hay unlimitedly.
 
Little Ones said:
I mean was it Ellie who has prescribed the metacam dosage?
Also normal fully grown piggy weight I believe is between 1100-1400g, but I’ve had 3 pigs who were almost at 1500. I don’t think guinea pigs can really ‘get’ overweight due to their fast metabolism and their purpose being to eat constantly and I don’t think they ever exceed 1500. You can’t exactly diet a guinea pig either as they need hay unlimitedly.
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No, nobody has prescribed Metacam recently at all. It's been given in the past by a different vet but she's not needed anything like that for a year.
 
Never mind, just re-read and saw it was the emeprid prescription :doh: my migraine has been getting the better of me the past couple of days.
Again though, Ellie does prescribe things in high doses.
I’m trying to remember how much my 1400 piggy was prescribed with the emeprid by the local vet - I think it was 0.4ml twice a day but I could be wrong. I’ll have to have a look if I get a minute
 
Little Ones said:
Never mind, just re-read and saw it was the emeprid prescription :doh: my migraine has been getting the better of me the past couple of days.
Again though, Ellie does prescribe things in high doses.
I’m trying to remember how much my 1400 piggy was prescribed with the emeprid by the local vet - I think it was 0.4ml twice a day but I could be wrong. I’ll have to have a look if I get a minute
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Oh! I hope you feel better!
 
Just a quick update; Bumble is wheeking happily for food, trotting around, drinking, eating hay and lettuce, sleeping soundly while having cuddles etc. Just like she was before her check up. Compared to the catatonic state she was in yesterday; wetting herself and being completely unable to move with her eyes bulging out of her head, this is a vast improvement. She has lost 30g in weight but I do think that's to be somewhat expected. We're NOT going to administer the Vetergesic and we're going to drop the Emeprid dose to .5ml twice a day.

The vet insists she's correct but I daren't trust her. I'm keen to make a formal complaint too. No animal should be treated by somebody who literally, on the spot, researched the animal she's supposed to be caring for. (She took Bumble into the clinic and kept her for over 2 hours because she needed to look online at what she was doing. This was for a simple check up!)
 
I am so pleased to hear Bumble is improving. You and she have had such a horrible time.
 
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