Urgent advice needed re bond attempt

YorkshireLass

YorkshireLass

Junior Guinea Pig
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
151
Reaction score
266
Points
345
Location
UK
Hi,
drove Pistachio age 5 to a rescue an hour away from us today who had a boar 14 - 15 weeks old.

The person they had prepared a run which was neutral territory and they had half an hour. It seemed to go extremely smoothly.

Then they travelled back together in the car with very little fuss.

I have cleaned out pistachios cage and I put him in first, and then introduced the other one.

It’s suddenly become very scary, and the little one has three times leapt at pistachio and tried to bite him on the side.

Pistachio was not the dominant piggy before, and I don’t think he’s trying to annoy him. He’s just trying to assert dominance by a bit of teeth, chattering, and rumble strutting. But the little one is either defending himself or going on the attack.

But then they’re quiet times where the little one what is himself, so I really don’t know what to do as this seems to be a little bit more fuller than I expected, I would describe it, as fur flying a couple of times.

What I have done for now, is put a C and C grid barrier halfway down the cage because I didn’t want either of them to get hurt while I check what people thought.

Really want this to work, but I know it might not. Thanks for any advice as to how to spend the rest of the afternoon with them.
 
I meant where the little one washes himself or nibbles hay
 
It is probable the youngster is scared and is behaving this way because of it. It’s not unusual for a scared piggy to act with fear based aggression.

What i would say is the they should have gone on neutral territory again for many more hours after you brought them home. Half an hour in a neutral bonding pen isn’t enough.

If there was not a fight - would leave them separated for a few days minimum to allow them to calm down and for the youngster to settle.
When you are ready and feel things have settled then put them in a neutral territory bonding pen try the bonding again. Be prepared for it to not work though

If i have misinterpreted what you’ve said and there was a fight at all then it means the bonding won’t work and you should not attempt to reintroduce
 
YorkshireLass said:
Hi,
drove Pistachio age 5 to a rescue an hour away from us today who had a boar 14 - 15 weeks old.

The person they had prepared a run which was neutral territory and they had half an hour. It seemed to go extremely smoothly.

Then they travelled back together in the car with very little fuss.

I have cleaned out pistachios cage and I put him in first, and then introduced the other one.

It’s suddenly become very scary, and the little one has three times leapt at pistachio and tried to bite him on the side.

Pistachio was not the dominant piggy before, and I don’t think he’s trying to annoy him. He’s just trying to assert dominance by a bit of teeth, chattering, and rumble strutting. But the little one is either defending himself or going on the attack.

But then they’re quiet times where the little one what is himself, so I really don’t know what to do as this seems to be a little bit more fuller than I expected, I would describe it, as fur flying a couple of times.

What I have done for now, is put a C and C grid barrier halfway down the cage because I didn’t want either of them to get hurt while I check what people thought.

Really want this to work, but I know it might not. Thanks for any advice as to how to spend the rest of the afternoon with them.
Click to expand...

Hi

Please give them a couple of days to settle down and see whether they gel or when meeting on neutral ground again.

When bringing piggies home from dating, never put them straight into a cage - it carries a different group scent and the newbie can feel like an intruder and over-react with fear-aggression. Always give them time in a neutral bonding pen outside the cage to work through the rough bit of the group establishment.
I prefer to restart from scratch with some settling down time with a divider in the bonding to allow them to get their bearings first and then allowing them to reacquaint each other, confirm their acceptance and work on from there - having learned from my own mistakes along the way.

Speed dating only covers initial acceptance (first step of the bonding process) but not the further steps that need to happen during an introduction before the group leadership and a rough hierarchy is established and the boys are comfortable with each other.

It was just a bit all too much at once for your new boy. :(
 
OK thanks, so at the moment they are in separate bits of the main cage, with one of everything each. Is that OK for a few days?
I admit I made an error thinking they would now be fine to go into the old cage, even cleaned out.
 
Good luck with your future bonding. Hopefully they will settle down in a few days.

PS I always leave them in the bonding pen all day and overnight to be sure. 👍🏻
 
YorkshireLass said:
OK thanks, so at the moment they are in separate bits of the main cage, with one of everything each. Is that OK for a few days?
I admit I made an error thinking they would now be fine to go into the old cage, even cleaned out.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is perfectly fine. Give them time to settle down, get over the territorial stuff and make friends through the bars. Don't rush it and bond only when it feels right to you.
You can find information on fear-aggression and territorial behaviours in this (newish) link here:
Wiebke

Thread 'A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours'

1 Introduction
2 Entries in alphabetical order
A
- Attention seeking and begging
B
- Back foot swipe
- Barbering (eating hair)
- Bar biting and rattling
- Begging: see Attention seeking
- 'Biting' Behaviours: Biting, Nibbling, Nipping, Tweaking
- Body language
- Border watch/lie-in
- Bullying
- Bum digging: see Poo stealing
- Bum sniffing...
  • Like

if they eventually gel, make sure that cage carries both their mingled scent when you move them in together.
 
Thanks, what scares me is people saying after a fight it’s no good anymore.
 
So now I feel sick. There was some fur on the travel cage cover and I have just got Pistachio out to check him over and there is a patch where it came from. But no blood anywhere.
 
I had planned for them to travel separately but the rescue said not to break the new bond.
 
YorkshireLass said:
Thanks, what scares me is people saying after a fight it’s no good anymore.
Click to expand...

A scared, defensive piggy with fear based aggression (which is likely what you are dealing with) can mean he just needs time to settle in and get to know each other and things might work out down the line.

(A fight due to incompatibility - they’re both trying to be dominant and neither prepared to back down - is not good news but at this point it doesn’t sound like what you are dealing with)

YorkshireLass said:
I had planned for them to travel separately but the rescue said not to break the new bond.
Click to expand...

You would have been right for them to travel separately.
We recommend they travel separately as with speed dating they haven't been together long enough to be in a confined space with each other - there really isnt a bond to break at that point.

Try not to worry at this point. Keep them separated and then try to reintroduce and see how it goes
 
YorkshireLass said:
I had planned for them to travel separately but the rescue said not to break the new bond.
Click to expand...

Sorry that you got the wrong advice. The chance that not fully bonded piggies suddenly panic during a journey or over-react when finding themselves in close quarters with a stranger is very high as I know from my own experiences.
Next time take two carriers and if needed stop out of sight of the rescue and split the boys. ;)
Speed dating means only acceptance but not the full leadership and hierarchy process; this takes sveral hours to a couple of days. The full group and territory establishment takes ca. 2 weeks.

But since blood has not been drawn, it is not all lost. Just give them time with a divider to work through it.
 
Thanks so much. I had two carriers but obviously took what I thought was good advice.
How will I know when the time is right to try with them again?
 
Ah I think it’s too late. I just saw what looked like green fur on the baby and got him out to check him over again. He has a little bald patch too with a couple of red dots, so he may have bled?
 
YorkshireLass said:
Ah I think it’s too late. I just saw what looked like green fur on the baby and got him out to check him over again. He has a little bald patch too with a couple of red dots, so he may have bled?
Click to expand...

That looks like a bite wound unfortunately. Please disinfect and have it vet checked as that is from a full on deep defence bite. :(
 
So that’s Pistachio feeling threatened enough to defend himself :-(
Since they have been separated there has been lots of teeth chattering and then Pistachio went more into friendly talk mode but the new boy kept chattering. In the past few mins the baby has made two friendly talk noises. He is trying to get through the bars. Twice I have seen Pistachio bop his nose through the bars and he didn’t react violently.
So I really don’t know. It was awful watching them earlier. I worry that Pistachio wants to stay submissive but this little guy seems overly aggressive since he got into the main cage.
 
Also at the beginning of the speed dating session at the rescue, the baby twice tried to mount Pistachio. Is this the wrong way round?
 
YorkshireLass said:
So that’s Pistachio feeling threatened enough to defend himself :-(
Since they have been separated there has been lots of teeth chattering and then Pistachio went more into friendly talk mode but the new boy kept chattering. In the past few mins the baby has made two friendly talk noises. He is trying to get through the bars. Twice I have seen Pistachio bop his nose through the bars and he didn’t react violently.
So I really don’t know. It was awful watching them earlier. I worry that Pistachio wants to stay submissive but this little guy seems overly aggressive since he got into the main cage.
Click to expand...

I think it was a panic reaction from both boys; it wasn't a real grudge fight - these are instinctive split second reactions.

If they can realise that then all is not lost. Just give them several days next to each other and see whether the youngster comes round or not to see the bite as accident and not as a fight.

All you can is give them the time and give them a chance. What has happened is not your own fault.
 
YorkshireLass said:
Also at the beginning of the speed dating session at the rescue, the baby twice tried to mount Pistachio. Is this the wrong way round?
Click to expand...

No, it can go both ways.

Have a look at the video when I dated Dylan with a couple of 4 weeks old baby boars (the one he liked better became Llelo)
(See chapter baby bonding)
Wiebke

Thread 'Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics'

1 Introduction
2 Pre-bonding
- Quarantine and sexing
- The need for a plan B
- The rule-breaker: Youngsters under 4 months (sub-teenage)
3 Setting up an introduction
- Getting to know each other
- ‘Buddy baths’ – why not
- Setting up a neutral bonding area
- How to start the bonding
4 Acceptance phase: Do we like each other?
- Friendly getting to know...
  • Like
 
Thanks @Wiebke for your advice and support. This morning they have been going up to each other at the bars but the new baby piggie is still mostly teeth chattering. I am definitely keeping them like this for another day or longer. Will I see a sign of when it may be safe to try again?
I assume what we are waiting for is new piggie not feeling so threatened so that he doesn’t launch the attacks on Pistachio like before?
Pistachio is a bit low, he isn’t showing interest in a paper bag of hay which he would usually love. He seems to be chatting through the bars. It’s new pig and his biting I am concerned about.
 
YorkshireLass said:
Thanks @Wiebke for your advice and support. This morning they have been going up to each other at the bars but the new baby piggie is still mostly teeth chattering. I am definitely keeping them like this for another day or longer. Will I see a sign of when it may be safe to try again?
I assume what we are waiting for is new piggie not feeling so threatened so that he doesn’t launch the attacks on Pistachio like before?
Pistachio is a bit low, he isn’t showing interest in a paper bag of hay which he would usually love. He seems to be chatting through the bars. It’s new pig and his biting I am concerned about.
Click to expand...

It will take longer than just a day or two but if it doesn't look like the baby is going to forgive the bite and hard feelings continue through the bars, then the bonding has failed.

You cannot blame the youngster being so fear-aggressive after his experience; he is only defending himself against an older and larger piggy and this experience will affect any future bondings of his. :(

I would however notify the rescue of what has happened. It was their bad advice which has caused the problem in the first place. A tenuous bond doesn't break with a journey in different carriers but it can definitely be killed by putting it under undue stress on a car journey in close confines where both piggies are out of their depth and much more likely to revert to their prey animal instincts; including split second deep defence bites on a moving object.
Wiebke

Thread 'Understanding Prey Animal Instincts, Guinea Pig Whispering and Cuddling Tips'

1 Understanding Prey Animal Behaviour
- Unresponsive prey reflex
- Flight reflex
- Figh reflex (defence bites)
2 How to Avoid Predatory Behaviours
- Scent
- Flow of chatter
- Sudden movement and noises
- Looming and staring
- 'I am not seeing you'
3 "Piggy Whispering" Tips
- 'I want to be friends with you'
- 'I invite you into my herd'
- 'I love/care about/appreciate you'
- 'Don't get uppity with...
  • Like
 
I have already told the rescue and I will reinforce the message, particularly if I have to do the whole round trip again to give baby back.
Currently Pistachio is talking and baby is rumbling next to the bars with his nose in the air BUT not teeth chattering
 
YorkshireLass said:
I have already told the rescue and I will reinforce the message, particularly if I have to do the whole round trip again to give baby back.
Currently Pistachio is talking and baby is rumbling next to the bars with his nose in the air BUT not teeth chattering
Click to expand...

Just give them time to calm down and start making friends. As long as baby is hurting from the bite, so will his feelings.

Don't rush it just because you are upset. I fully appreciate just how difficult it is for you to sit by and wait.
 
So they have been living through the bars for five days and both seemed interested and calmer recently, it’s my day off so I can spend the day in the room with them.
We are 15 mins into the second try at bonding. Whenever I spook the little one he runs to hide near Pistachio but that then spooks the big guy and he teeth chatters. They have both had a wash which I believe is positive. The little one is trying to get near Pistachio. Sometimes he is turned away by the reaction and leaves, sometimes he points his own nose up. There is currently a lot of loud talking and occasional teeth chattering from Pistachio. Occasionally the baby rumble struts.
What do people think so far? I am so scared the whole time that someone will fly at the other again!
 
YorkshireLass said:
So they have been living through the bars for five days and both seemed interested and calmer recently, it’s my day off so I can spend the day in the room with them.
We are 15 mins into the second try at bonding. Whenever I spook the little one he runs to hide near Pistachio but that then spooks the big guy and he teeth chatters. They have both had a wash which I believe is positive. The little one is trying to get near Pistachio. Sometimes he is turned away by the reaction and leaves, sometimes he points his own nose up. There is currently a lot of loud talking and occasional teeth chattering from Pistachio. Occasionally the baby rumble struts.
What do people think so far? I am so scared the whole time that someone will fly at the other again!
Click to expand...

Hi

There is wariness but no aggression. Please sit by and allow them to sort themselves out. It is likely going to take all day and possibly overnight. Don't rush it. The fact that they are chatting is positive.
 
OK thanks @Wiebke for your quick reply. Pistachio sometimes rounds on the baby but hasn’t actually nipped him. So I feel it’s on a knife edge. They are both resting now, at either end of the run.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top