Teeth trouble 5 year old sow

[Pigmeister]

Hi all looking for a bit of advice. Had noticed one of our older pigs didn't seem to be eating too well, eating very slowly and not seeming to eat as much. Took her ot the vet, who is a local small animal vet. They said it's suspect infection of the root canal as she has inflammation on both sides of the mouth. They did say we could do some tests with a specialist but their advice was that because she's older and with the issue being on both side sof the mouth that euthanasia was the best thing.

They gave us painkiller for her. She is eating still but small amounts. I've been cutting up grass for her and where usually grass would disappear in seconds with not a shred left she can't even finish a very small bowl of it. Bit she is having small amount of various things I give which are primarily herbs, some prebiotic pellets.
She's been lying in hay but not sure how much of it she's able to eat. It's definitely not the usual amount anyway.
She has lost weight, I think maybe 200 or 300 g but is around 800g

We don't want her to be suffering, but also don't want to put her to sleep too early.

TIA

 

[Bill & Ted]

Hello and Welcome to the forum
Can you travel? There is a good guinea pig vet in Derbyshire who deals with dental problems, it would be well worth the visit as she has all the tools to look inside your piggies mouth properly and find out what’s the problem and do the necessary work if needed or prescribe medication she needs to heal any infection
Recommended Guinea Pig Vet | The Guinea Pig Vet | England

In the meantime you should weigh daily at the same time and start syringe feeding. You should aim for 60 ml a day or as near to that if you can. Also keep on hand feeding plenty of small bits of veg and grass

Here is a link for our complete syringe feeding guide, she must eat or her tummy will shut down, please read through the links they will help you bridge before you can get her help
Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre

 

[Piggies&buns]

I'm sorry to hear this. It would be worth getting a second opinion if you can do so.
200-300g is a lot of weight loss, and means she hasn’t been eating enough hay, so please do step in and syringe feed her a fibre rich recovery feed or mushed pellets to replace the hay intake, and switch to weighing her daily. You are looking to give enough syringe feed in each 24 hour period to stop weight loss each day.

All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

 

[Pigmeister]

We're in Harrogate and there is a vet dentist here The Vet Dentist Harrogate | A Referral Veterinary Dental Practice
I just wonder if putting her through tests is too detrimental to her quality of life to try to eke out a bit more time.

 

[Pigmeister]

We've not been syringe feeding but will start that and see how it goes. She does seem to be eating some amount of pellets and some hay as I say but obviously not enough.

 

[Bill & Ted]

We're in Harrogate and there is a vet dentist here The Vet Dentist Harrogate | A Referral Veterinary Dental Practice
I just wonder if putting her through tests is too detrimental to her quality of life to try to eke out a bit more time.

They certainly look like they have a marvellous set up. Do check if they have plenty of experience in guinea pig dentistry, there are very few vets skilled in that particular area.

The Guinea Pig Vet, Derbyshire
and Simon and Kim Maddock at the Cat and Rabbit Clinic in Northampton “the go to UK vets” for guinea pig dentistry


I come from Harrogate but moved down to Cornwall 12 years ago, good luck, do let us know how you get on

 

[Pigmeister]

I'll have to talk with my partner. While she loves the piggos I'm not sure how keen she'll be on spending a load of money (I would be more so).
I will at least give them a call, and see if getting to Derbyshire is doable (I can't drive due to an eye condition and partner is stupidly busy right now).

Thank you. It's been a hard couple of months with the pigs as around 2 months ago we were told our other elderly pig has mammarian cancer and only had days/weeks. But she's till going strong and you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with her.

 

[Bill & Ted]

I'll have to talk with my partner. While she loves the piggos I'm not sure how keen she'll be on spending a load of money (I would be more so).
I will at least give them a call, and see if getting to Derbyshire is doable (I can't drive due to an eye condition and partner is stupidly busy right now).

Thank you. It's been a hard couple of months with the pigs as around 2 months ago we were told our other elderly pig has mammarian cancer and only had days/weeks. But she's till going strong and you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with her.

It all looks very high tech at Harrogate, that can sometimes mean very costly. The other two vets can do conscious dentals if needed where the piggie sits on all fours and is held around the back end by a nurse while the vet gently files any sharp molar spurs down. it takes 5-10 minutes and no nasty anaesthetic is required. We used to go to Simon Maddock in Northampton from Cornwall with our boy Ted for conscious dentals, he had a molar spur, it was worth every mile (600 round trip in total) to get him eating again. he is the best in the UK and people travel from all over the country and very reasonably priced

Hope you can get her eating again

 

[Pigmeister]

Thank you

 

[Free Ranger]

Your piggy has lost quite a bit of weight and I do understand your dilemma: you don't want to 'artificially' eke out her life, you don't want to put her through unpleasant treatment for the sake of it, but you don't want to put her to sleep if there's something that can be done for your gentle old lady. First thing's first - if you make up a mush of food pellets or if you have some Recovery food mush (which you can buy over the counter from any vet - it's high fibre and ready ground) will she eat that on her own, or are you syringing her to top her up? Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

The second thing is to consider whether this is actually a dental problem or whether the 'not able to eat' is caused by something other than teeth. Pigs need to eat hay (or grass) to keep their teeth down, if they get something wrong that causes their eating to slow and it goes on for some time the teeth can begin to overgrow as a result - a secondary issue. Dental surgery in cases like this doesn't tackle the primary problem. Does she have any drooling or a wet mouth? If they are saying 'inflammation on both sides of the mouth' that would have me pondering whether it's an issue with teeth or something with the soft tissues - gums, cheeks etc.

Sometimes pigs are diagnosed with an abscess (vets can sometimes feel a lump) or an ulcer (possibly caused by a tooth spur) but although these things are hard to spot they are typically localised. 'Root canal'... well that's inside a tooth as far as I know so each tooth should have it's own like in people so although there can be pain and swelling it should again be more on one side than the other if not localised to one tooth. Both sides of the mouth... it just seems a bit generalised. Did they mention whether they were ruling out something like oral thrush? Does her breath smell at all ('old dishcloth' sort of smell perhaps?) I've not had a case of oral thrush personally but a vet did once tell me that older piggies were more prone to fungal issues as their immune systems are not so good. Are her lips smooth or is there scabbing or red patches? (I'm assuming you don't give a a lot of acidic things like orange or tomato regularly?)

If they thought it was infection did they discuss any possible antibiotic treatment? And could you tell us what painkiller she has - presumably metacam or loxicom but would it be 0.5 or 1.5mg/ml and what volume (whether by ml or 'units' on the syringe) and how many times a day? Just trying to get a more rounded view of things.

I suppose I'm thinking that if you could identify the source of the problem it might be something serious (obvs - it's affecting her eating) but treatable with medication. On the flip side it might instead be something where the treatment would make you think twice about putting her through it. I guess what I'm saying is, if it was me, I'd want to know what the problem was, if at all possible, before I decide what to do. I'd be worried that my vet might have been offering an educated guess unless they could point at this or that symptom and explain what they were ruling out. Maybe a second opinion... I mean, it's a day out isn't it.

 

[Pigmeister]

Your piggy has lost quite a bit of weight and I do understand your dilemma: you don't want to 'artificially' eke out her life, you don't want to put her through unpleasant treatment for the sake of it, but you don't want to put her to sleep if there's something that can be done for your gentle old lady. First thing's first - if you make up a mush of food pellets or if you have some Recovery food mush (which you can buy over the counter from any vet - it's high fibre and ready ground) will she eat that on her own, or are you syringing her to top her up? Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

The second thing is to consider whether this is actually a dental problem or whether the 'not able to eat' is caused by something other than teeth. Pigs need to eat hay (or grass) to keep their teeth down, if they get something wrong that causes their eating to slow and it goes on for some time the teeth can begin to overgrow as a result - a secondary issue. Dental surgery in cases like this doesn't tackle the primary problem. Does she have any drooling or a wet mouth? If they are saying 'inflammation on both sides of the mouth' that would have me pondering whether it's an issue with teeth or something with the soft tissues - gums, cheeks etc.

Sometimes pigs are diagnosed with an abscess (vets can sometimes feel a lump) or an ulcer (possibly caused by a tooth spur) but although these things are hard to spot they are typically localised. 'Root canal'... well that's inside a tooth as far as I know so each tooth should have it's own like in people so although there can be pain and swelling it should again be more on one side than the other if not localised to one tooth. Both sides of the mouth... it just seems a bit generalised. Did they mention whether they were ruling out something like oral thrush? Does her breath smell at all ('old dishcloth' sort of smell perhaps?) I've not had a case of oral thrush personally but a vet did once tell me that older piggies were more prone to fungal issues as their immune systems are not so good. Are her lips smooth or is there scabbing or red patches? (I'm assuming you don't give a a lot of acidic things like orange or tomato regularly?)

If they thought it was infection did they discuss any possible antibiotic treatment? And could you tell us what painkiller she has - presumably metacam or loxicom but would it be 0.5 or 1.5mg/ml and what volume (whether by ml or 'units' on the syringe) and how many times a day? Just trying to get a more rounded view of things.

I suppose I'm thinking that if you could identify the source of the problem it might be something serious (obvs - it's affecting her eating) but treatable with medication. On the flip side it might instead be something where the treatment would make you think twice about putting her through it. I guess what I'm saying is, if it was me, I'd want to know what the problem was, if at all possible, before I decide what to do. I'd be worried that my vet might have been offering an educated guess unless they could point at this or that symptom and explain what they were ruling out. Maybe a second opinion... I mean, it's a day out isn't it.

You've really summed up my thinking. We took her to the vet a couple of months ago because we thought there was something wrong with her chewing but they said they didn't see anything so we are wondering if something was missed. I think I will at least try to find out more.

the nurse in with the vet has her own guinea pigs which makes me wonder if they of really know what they're talking about but a second opinion definitely wouldn't hurt.

There is a forum recommended vet in Leeds I could maybe get to.

We've not tried syringe feeding yet. Vet didn't even recommend that. That hasbbeen very difficult with her in the past though.

She's spritely enough that she was fighting us this morning giving her the painkiller.

It's Metacam 0,5 mg/ml

Was told to give 0.36 ml first day then 0.18 once a day after.

 

[Pigmeister]

Forgot to mention she doesn't have bad breath.

I start welling up even just getting in the room explaining never mind after the bad news bit so I've probably not come away being able to explain what they're said very well. But the message was clear for them that it's definitely a case of euthanasia although the nurse did see if we can get her to put weight on then we could keep using the pain killers for her.

And they did say we could see a specialist. I think their feeling was the stress etc of the tests wouldn't be worth it for her. I'll investigate further though.

 

[Free Ranger]

@furryfriends (TEAS) have you heard anything about 'root canal' causing inflammation on both sides of the mouth?

She's on quite a low dose of painkiller. If it was the stronger one I'd say that was similar to what my pigs get (twice a day) but the lower strength is licensed for pigs now which puts vets off using the higher strength. George (6) has been on it for 2+ years. It can apparently put a strain on the kidneys but there - they were suggesting pts so where's the harm. That would kind of make me lean even more towards a second opinion.

There's tests and there's tests. If they were saying general anaesthetic and blood samples that's a big thing, and what would it tell you anyway, but a careful look round the mouth for tooth spurs while she's awake, maybe taking a few swabs, pressing round the jaw to see if there's points of sensitivity etc. Perhaps they were thinking she might need x-rays of the mouth?

Good luck. If you can get her to eat some sort of mush she might feel a bit better in herself at least in the short term

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

@furryfriends (TEAS) have you heard anything about 'root canal' causing inflammation on both sides of the mouth?

She's on quite a low dose of painkiller. If it was the stronger one I'd say that was similar to what my pigs get (twice a day) but the lower strength is licensed for pigs now which puts vets off using the higher strength. George (6) has been on it for 2+ years. It can apparently put a strain on the kidneys but there - they were suggesting pts so where's the harm. That would kind of make me lean even more towards a second opinion.

There's tests and there's tests. If they were saying general anaesthetic and blood samples that's a big thing, and what would it tell you anyway, but a careful look round the mouth for tooth spurs while she's awake, maybe taking a few swabs, pressing round the jaw to see if there's points of sensitivity etc. Perhaps they were thinking she might need x-rays of the mouth?

Good luck. If you can get her to eat some sort of mush she might feel a bit better in herself at least in the short term

I wonder if "root canal inflammation" could be the same as the "pulpitis" that Kim Maddock diagnosed in my Squeaks in March? She said that an infection gets to the very start of where the teeth grow from - in Squeaks' case his lower incisors - and weakens the growing tooth. They were wearing at a slant and then one broke too.

This is where Simon and Kim Maddock are so good. My vet wanted to sedate and xray to try to see what was going on, but Simon and Kim see guineas with dental issues so much that they can often work out what is happening by feel and sight, avoiding the risk of sedation.

 

[Pigmeister]

Ugh just tried the critical care, got maybe 0.2 ml in and that was it.
I think they said there's inflammation/swelling on both sides of jaw which is maybe why they thought it was a deeper thing than just a tooth.

Really appreciate the help and input.

 

[Pigmeister]

I wonder if "root canal inflammation" could be the same as the "pulpitis" that Kim Maddock diagnosed in my Squeaks in March? She said that an infection gets to the very start of where the teeth grow from - in Squeaks' case his lower incisors - and weakens the growing tooth. They were wearing at a slant and then one broke too.

This is where Simon and Kim Maddock are so good. My vet wanted to sedate and xray to try to see what was going on, but Simon and Kim see guineas with dental issues so much that they can often work out what is happening by feel and sight, avoiding the risk of sedation.

I just don't think there's any chance we're going to get to Northampton unfortunately.
I'll try the local animal dentist and see if they have experience with guinea pigs

 

[Free Ranger]

There's a piggy down south who's been tempted by adding Pro-C to the mush. I'm going to P@H tomorrow to try and get some for one of mine. It may well be because there's a bit of sugar in it but there - he's an old lad and if he perks up on it I'm not going to get fussy. Crit Care in the green packet has a strong aniseed flavour which mine don't like - they tend to go for the brown pack one that tastes of papaya (for some reason!) but it's pricier and harder to get hold of. George is a careful sort and more likely to have a go of something if he sees one of the others eating it first! I get 'Recovery' from my vet which doesn't seem to taste of anything but they don't object if I mix in a bit of CC for variation. But all CC is a no-no here. They all have their preferences

Are your girl's incisors looking even? I didn't ask... I'm assuming they're not slanting to one side or the other though...

 

[Pigmeister]

I've ordered the banana and apple critical care as well as a different brand that is mint so will see if she tries any of that. It's amazing how wriggly and how much of a fight she can put up which makes me even more inclined to do more investigating.
Have gotten booked in to see someone at Holly's House in Leeds tomorrow. They had a really helpful guy doing triage and booked me in with one of the vets who really know guinea pigs. So at the very least even if the result is still the same at least we can know for sure.

 

[Pigmeister]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the thoughts and input on this thread.

I've just gottem back from Holly House Vets in Leeds who did a really thorough exam of Petri and particularly her mouth. Definitely seems to be another case of our previous vets letting us down, not knowing what they're doing with guinea pigs.

Holly House have said she has overgrown back teeth which is the main problem, and quite severe given it's probably been ongoing for a good while now. The poor thing. But we're booked in for an operation on Weds. It's not by any means certain to be a success but the vet certainly wasn't ready to write her off just yet.

Interestingly that vet thought 4 and a half should really be middle age for a guinea pig.
It was a young guy called Tom who saw her. He was really helpful, informative and enthusiastic but he also mentioned that they have a lot of vets in that practice who know guinea pigs and many more experienced with them than him. So seems like a good place to have found. IF only we'd found it sooner.

He has also prescribed a much higher does of metacam and given me the dog version to give her over the next 2 days running up to the operation.
Fingers crossed for her but even if she doesn't make it at least we've found someone who knows what they're doing and can give her a chance.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Hi everyone, thanks for all the thoughts and input on this thread.

I've just gottem back from Holly House Vets in Leeds who did a really thorough exam of Petri and particularly her mouth. Definitely seems to be another case of our previous vets letting us down, not knowing what they're doing with guinea pigs.

Holly House have said she has overgrown back teeth which is the main problem, and quite severe given it's probably been ongoing for a good while now. The poor thing. But we're booked in for an operation on Weds. It's not by any means certain to be a success but the vet certainly wasn't ready to write her off just yet.

Interestingly that vet thought 4 and a half should really be middle age for a guinea pig.
It was a young guy called Tom who saw her. He was really helpful, informative and enthusiastic but he also mentioned that they have a lot of vets in that practice who know guinea pigs and many more experienced with them than him. So seems like a good place to have found. IF only we'd found it sooner.

He has also prescribed a much higher does of metacam and given me the dog version to give her over the next 2 days running up to the operation.
Fingers crossed for her but even if she doesn't make it at least we've found someone who knows what they're doing and can give her a chance.

I’m so glad you were able to get a second opinion. Best wishes for Wednesday. Hopefully this will cure the issue and she will go on for many more years.
4 1/2 is older but by no means old - some make it to 8 years old!

 

[Free Ranger]

It's such a relief when you can feel confident in what a vet is telling you. I hope she can feed up before her big day... good luck little lady x
I've got one who is 4 1/2. She gets emotional and she eats a lot more than she should so I suppose she is middle aged!

 

[Pigmeister]

I must be middle aged too then as I can barely get out the situation to the vet without a bit of sobbing.

The syringe feeding is a real challenge though. She's super wriggly and really putting up a fight. But I also got some Excel pellets that are for recovery and she seems to like them. Just got to try and get as much in as I can. Frustratingly my partner is not available as her work has ended up going a bit crazy and will be for another 2 weeks so pretty much doing this myself.

And we lost our poor Otley on Sunday too. While we were worrying about Petri, Otley had previously been 'diagnosed' with mammarian cancer. We;d even said on Sunday morning that the vet must have been wrong because you wouldn't have thought anything was wrong with her at all. Then in the afternoon all of a sudden it just happened. Something must have just failed for her and she was gone in maybe 10 mins. The house is already quieter today without her.

 

[eileen]

I'm sorry you have lost a piggie.i hope you get the dental problems resolved.Holly House Vets is on the recommended vet list .vet list on the top bar.

 

[Free Ranger]

Oh I'm so sorry to hear about Otley. RIP little lady - everyone will miss you x

 

[Pigmeister]

Thank you! She was Petri's sister. MY partner got them maybe a week or two before we met so they've actually been a big part of our relationship.
Hopefully Petri can make a recovery, and we do also have a 7 month old as well who I think Otley taught all the tricks for getting more food!

 

[Bill & Ted]

So sorry to hear about Otley, sending hugs

Good luck for today, I hope everything goes well for the little lady

 

[Pigmeister]

So sorry to hear about Otley, sending hugs

Good luck for today, I hope everything goes well for the little lady

Thank you. She's at the vet hospital now. Apparently I've managed to get enough CC into her that she's put on weight which will hopefully give her the best chance but it will still come down to whether the teeth are too far gone. They're doing it this afternoon. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Bill & Ted]

Good luck be prepared to step in with syringe feeding to support her until she is eating properly

 

[Pigmeister]

Good luck be prepared to step in with syringe feeding to support her until she is eating properly

I've definitely had a lot of practice the last few days

 

[Pigmeister]

Petri is home and doing really well. We've just done some feeding and medication.

So so happy and relieved and glad we got a second opinion.

We've still got to build him up some more and he'll have to get regular teeth checks too.

Oh and he's been misgendered too haha. When my partner first got him and Otley she was told they were neutered boys. Then a London vet was very adamant they were girls, so we've thought that ever since. Local vet did not pick up on this along with the teeth issue and god knows what else.

Thanks for the wishes and thoughts everyone.