Potential controversy. Pet shops.

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Ok, so I apologise in advance for the potential controversy this thread may cause. I felt like I had to ask as I think this is a great forum, but something has been bothering me for a while. I understand and respect the forum's stance on intentional breeding, so I don't really want to mention that here. But I was wondering why intentional breeding is so looked down upon, with warnings given, yet people are freely allowed to talk about getting pigs from pet shops. Surely if the forum is against intentional breeding then their reasons for this would also mean giving warnings to people who advocate buying from pet shops? Large scale intentional breeding in horrific conditions (please look up rodent mills). Even smaller pet shops who might not source from these cruel large scale operations still have people intentionally breeding and not caring what happens to their animals. So yeah... been wondering why people aren't allowed to talk about piggy breeders but supporting pet shops is fine.
 
Very true! Also...
I believe people purchase from stores for a variety of reasons. My first guinea pig was abandoned by a breeder I was able to contact. My second pig, buttercup, was from a pet store. First of all, I was a fresh guinea pig owner and pretty inexperienced. Second of all, I researched for almost a week for guinea pigs at rescues. None had babies the same age as Ginger. I walked into a pet store innocently to get guinea pig bedding and I spotted Buttercup. I have had him for a year and honestly love him so so much. I never feel ashamed and nobody ever should. I would probably never purchase from a store again now that I am educated. This happens to a lot of people who are getting their first pig. It's no excuse but I can relate. We must simply continue raising awareness on this important topic and I do agree!
 
I know a lot of people aren't educated on why pet shops are so terrible. I myself have purchased from pet shops in the past, before I realised the truth behind it all. Now I just couldn't in all good conscience support them. By buying animals from pet shops people are just showing there's demand, leading to more being bred in those awful conditions to take their place. I've just been thinking lately that the stance on intentional breeding vs pet shops is quite hypocritical (not trying to be nasty when I say that). I've seen people get pulled up immediately for mentioning breeding, but not supporting pet shops. Which is confusing to me.
 
The forum strongly promotes reputable rescues, and the advice given is always to get piggies from rescues where possible. Unfortunately that's NOT always possible.
The forum advocates that there are plenty of piggies already in existence, and will not support people who are intentionally trying to bring more into the world with all the inherent risks to mum and babies.
The argument about creating a demand by buying from a pet shop is one you will see many members voicing. But if someone buys from a pet shop they will still be helped and supported to give that piggy the best life possible. The difference lies in the intention. Many members have bought from pet shops, some because they don't realise the conditions animals may be kept in, some because they have a lonely single piggy, and some because there's nowhere else to get one where they live.
The forum is not anti pregnancy or anti baby guinea pigs, as you will see from the many ooohs and aaaahs when there is an accidental pregnancy.
The forum will not give help to people to deliberately breed piggies, however breeders are welcome to be members and will be supported with help about health, behaviour etc, but will not be given advice about how to deliberately put piggies at risk by intentionally trying to breed them. The only way to prevent this happening is to completely ban the discussion of intentional breeding.
 
I don't agree with not having anywhere local to get piggies be an acceptable reason to go to a pet shop. Public transport/couriers are there. I accept that some people are not educated about the realities of pet shops, but admin don't jump in and warn/tell them like they do when someone mentions breeders. If admin have those feelings about breeders then it makes sense that they should have the same stance on pet shops and discourage people from going to them. I guess the hypocrisy there has just gotten to me. Maybe the forum isn't for me anymore.
 
Seems like an unnecessary comment. Makes my decision easier if that's what attitudes are going to be like.
 
I was agreeing with your own statement that if you find the rules of the forum hypocritical it may not be for you. That is your decision to make.
 
People are free to mention that they got their pigs from breeders too, this forum is about the pigs welfare though obviously we are keen to promote rescues. I'm not aware of anyone having warnings about this. What we are quick to do is point out the rules when a piggy may have been intentionally bred by the owner.

Often members join this forum after they have acquired their pets and we want to be welcoming to everyone so I don't see what immediately telling people how bad pet shops are is realistically going to achieve.

Also access is a big issue. England seems fairly well covered for rescues but places like Scotland less so. Then when you look at places like the USA there can be states larger than the UK with no rescues in at all for piggies. Some people know how bad their local shop is but choose to go anyway which is their right. We can educate on welfare but the decision ultimately lies with the owner/potential owner.

There are other reasons why people might go to pet shops too if they can't travel longer distances due to health for example or like me if they have outdoor pigs and local rescues won't re-home to them (not all rescues take this approach but I know I can't rehome from one of my local reputable rescues due to this)
 
My two of my four boys are from a pet shop i dont support buying animals from pet shops but i went into the pet shop to get supplies for guinea pigs before going to a shelter but i seen these two 6 week old Guinea pigs severely underweight so i bought them all the other Guinea pigs in that shop were well fed except these two so i felt bad and bought them they are now happy well fed with plenty of room and they have two younger brothers my other two boys i got off my cousin after her Guinea pig got pregnant due to miss sexing
 
Every pig I have ever had has been from Pets at Home (there have only been three!) and now I realise -lovely as my pigs are- that wasn’t the best choice, for example when I brought poor wee Smudge home, we’d barely had him for any time and he got sick, and passed away.

Now though, I have discovered a rescue near me, so if I have to get another guinea pig (which hopefully won’t happen any time soon) or my house magically expands and I have space for another cage I can use it.
 
I joined this forum having bought my first piggies from a pet store. At the time I didn't know any better. We can all learn and here on the forum advice is given without judgement on where your piggies came from.

Not everyone has access to a local rescue (and some rescues will only re-home locally). Also, sometimes a grieving piggy needs a new friend urgently and a pet store is the only option.

I don't believe this forum is hypocritical, just realistic.
 
I think there’s a huge difference between actively promoting and being welcoming, and so far the only thing I have seen this forum promote and encourage IS rescue.
Sometimes, though, rescue isn’t possible, and I don’t think it’s fair to condemn those who either a) did not know or b) had no other option.

My two came from a pet shop. Would I have rescued if I could have? Hell yes! But unfortunately there really are cases where rescue isn’t an option. I’m going to be frank and say that I suffer from anxiety. Given that last year I went through a stage where I couldn’t even go into my garden or the kitchen without having a panic attack, travelling isn’t, at this stage, available to me. I’ve worked my way back up to being able to drive around my city (certain places, anyway), but the nearest rescue to me is over an hour and half away. I can’t drive that far. And public transport? Guaranteed panic attack. Is that not an acceptable reason? Should I not have got guinea pigs at all?

My piggies mean everything to me and I want what is best for them. They come first (I bought a sewing machine so I could shower them in all things fleece! They get vegetables before I get food). I’d be utterly devastated if I couldn’t get help and advice for them simply because of where they came from. They, the animals themselves, don't deserve that.

And the pet shop I got them from has certain rules for their breeders to adhere to. There may not be such a thing as ethical breeding, but I’d rather that than animals being bred in poor conditions. I also wasn’t allowed to have them until I’d given proof that I had everything to care for them. That doesn’t say not caring to me. So even though I couldn’t rescue, I tried to get them from as good an environment as possible.

Intention is everything.
 
Caris said:
I think there’s a huge difference between actively promoting and being welcoming, and so far the only thing I have seen this forum promote and encourage IS rescue.
Sometimes, though, rescue isn’t possible, and I don’t think it’s fair to condemn those who either a) did not know or b) had no other option.

My two came from a pet shop. Would I have rescued if I could have? Hell yes! But unfortunately there really are cases where rescue isn’t an option. I’m going to be frank and say that I suffer from anxiety. Given that last year I went through a stage where I couldn’t even go into my garden or the kitchen without having a panic attack, travelling isn’t, at this stage, available to me. I’ve worked my way back up to being able to drive around my city (certain places, anyway), but the nearest rescue to me is over an hour and half away. I can’t drive that far. And public transport? Guaranteed panic attack. Is that not an acceptable reason? Should I not have got guinea pigs at all?

My piggies mean everything to me and I want what is best for them. They come first (I bought a sewing machine so I could shower them in all things fleece! They get vegetables before I get food). I’d be utterly devastated if I couldn’t get help and advice for them simply because of where they came from. They, the animals themselves, don't deserve that.

And the pet shop I got them from has certain rules for their breeders to adhere to. There may not be such a thing as ethical breeding, but I’d rather that than animals being bred in poor conditions. I also wasn’t allowed to have them until I’d given proof that I had everything to care for them. That doesn’t say not caring to me. So even though I couldn’t rescue, I tried to get them from as good an environment as possible.

Intention is everything.
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I just want to say thank you for sharing your experience. It's not easy to say publicly how anxiety can affect you and you have clearly made excellent progress. I hope it continues to improve for you
 
I got mine from pets at home, the adoption part, i wanted to give two pigs that both suffered uri's, split from the sale herd and then quarentined, only to find that they're family had been sold once they were well again, A second chance

I didnt know anything about local rescues back then and i wasnt a member of the forum. But I'm still very happy about giving two guinea pigs that had a rough start in life a, now a brilliant life together and bonded, instead of going to a home where some parent got them for a child who doesnt feed them, and keeps them in a 50cm cage
 
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Actually, the adoption part in pets at home, I'm sure is an animal rescue, they have a deal with pets at home to use some of the shop floor space to rehome pets. It does get abused though, by old stock that have lost the "brand new" factor. But then again, what would happen to those poor animals ?

I think if we need to attack anything, it has to be the primary source of where mass breeding is starting. The mills
 
I’ve been a member for about 16 months now and must say that I have never felt judged because I don’t have any piggies from a rescue.
My first 2 came from PAH adoption centre and then I found the forum as it had been many years since I’d had guinea pigs.
I agree with the non deliberate breeding policy however I also understand that we don’t always have access to rescues.
I did buy 2 from a pet shop because I had a bereaved piggy in desperate need of companionship and so I researched as best I could local pet shops.
I ended up travelling 20 miles to the one I felt had the most reputable breeder supplying them and the highest welfare standards.
My latest 2 were ‘rescued ‘ via the free ads.
For me the forum helps us to understand piggy welfare, maintain and promote high standards, educate but not judge people who don’t/ can’t get piggies from a rescue.
All guinea pigs deserve a good home no matter where they come from.
@badwolf I think it’s a shame if you don’t feel that you can stay on the forum because of this issue.
We’re all human and will never all agree.
I have seen the mods come down on members who were being unkind to someone who bought pet shop piggies so it’s not just one way.
I hope you will stay
 
I got my first guinea pig from a pet shop. I was passing by and saw this tiny piggy in with 2 rabbits. When I questioned the store owner he said they didn't normally sell pigs and had nowhere else to put him.
So I brought him home and got him a friend from a rescue.
All my others pigs have been rescued or from people who no longer wanted them.
Personally it makes me angry and sad when people just decide they no longer want animals. I could never give mine away, I love them too much.
Even my cat is a rescue, found lost and in a bad way at 5 months old. He's lovely now, he's big white and deaf so not allowed out.
 
The forum trys to educate and not judge. In an ideal world all people could get Guinea Pigs from reputable rescues local to them and not have to breed, get from a breeder or a pet shop but then we’d run out of pigs which is another debate.....

The forum appreiciates that not all people have access or the ability to use a reputable rescue for a host of reasons and that is why people are not judged for getting piggies from any source - breeder or pet store or rescue - all are welcome here. The only thing we ask is people do not discuss intentional breeding, promote breeding, nor do they advise on how to breed.

Many people also such as myself obtained piggies through traditional means, we got our first girls through a breeder, I’d never heard of guinea pig rescues until I joined the forum, this is the case for many. The forum try’s to educate people on existence of these rescues but remain non judgemental should people not wish or are unable to use them.
 
I don’t think the forum’s stance is hypocritical. We seek to educate people not for our own purposes but in the interests of the welfare of guinea pigs.

Members are welcome irrespective of whether their piggies have come from rescue, a shop or breeder.
If this forum only welcomed members whose piggies had all come from rescues we would have an exceptionally limited membership. We’d become a very small self serving private members’ club. We wouldn’t be the forum that we are today. Many of us (myself included) have had pet shop piggies at some point in the past - before we became aware of the many pigs in reputable rescues awaiting forever homes.
Many people considering getting piggies are unaware that guinea pig rescues even exist and so we do our best to promote them and the piggies waiting for homes. If they join here as part of their research we do our best to direct them to rescues, but we have to respect free will and that people are free to choose where they get their piggies from.

We don’t judge people on where their piggies came from and it would be wrong to do so. What matters is giving those piggies the best life possible. And that involves not breeding from them, socialising them, proper care, accommodation, nutrition and veterinary care - all of which we promote.

Realistically nothing we do on this forum will stop the mass breeding of piggies for profit. While there are still people wanting to buy babies from pet shops there will be breeders breeding them to satisfy the demand. It’s simple economics - supply and demand. Piggies are seen as profitable commodities. Until that changes there will always be rodent breeding mills and piggies sold in pet shops.

The forum isn’t a political campaigner. Collectively (staff and members alike) can only seek to educate the public at large about guinea pig welfare and carry on as we are doing. On the whole I think we get the balance right. If we are too preachy we will lose members and potentially lose the opportunity to help more piggies have a happy and enriched life.
 
sport_billy said:
The forum trys to educate and not judge. In an ideal world all people could get Guinea Pigs from reputable rescues local to them and not have to breed, get from a breeder or a pet shop but then we’d run out of pigs which is another debate.....

The forum appreiciates that not all people have access or the ability to use a reputable rescue for a host of reasons and that is why people are not judged for getting piggies from any source - breeder or pet store or rescue - all are welcome here. The only thing we ask is people do not discuss intentional breeding, promote breeding, nor do they advise on how to breed.

Many people also such as myself obtained piggies through traditional means, we got our first girls through a breeder, I’d never heard of guinea pig rescues until I joined the forum, this is the case for many. The forum try’s to educate people on existence of these rescues but remain non judgemental should people not wish or are unable to use them.
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Sport Billy says it all really and very well :agr:
I always advise people not to join any forum unless your willing to hear all views and not be judgmental, at the end of the day is a big room full of people expressing their opinions, some you like some you don't.
I run a rescue and believe me the primary concern of ours is the keeping, not where you get your Guinea Pig from, we don't judge just support to ensure these Guinea Pigs get all the care and forever home they deserve.
At least we can keep an eye on large pet retailers, its some of the hobby breeders which cause most concern and believe me we regularly deal with their cast offs.
But I do not agree with intentional breeding of any species for profit or to breed the perfect standard to win prizes. There are too many casualties and unwanted Guinea Pigs along the way.
 
Ok well I figured this post would attract differing opinions. Can't say I'm not a little disappointed about some of the replies. I appreciate those who have encouraged me to stay. I have enjoyed being a part of the forum, however I can't bring myself to participate when there's an issue that bothers me this much. My account is being deleted this evening, so after today I won't be able to reply to anything. Just wanted to clarify a couple of things before that happened. It was never my intention that members be criticised when they had purchased from pet shops and were unaware. I never wanted people to be turned away from help because of this. I was just surprised that when people talked about planning on purchasing from pet shops that this was freely allowed, when I'd seen members mention breeding/breeders and get the threat of a ban if they continued. I understand the stance on intentional breeding. I guess I thought that people, mainly those in charge of the forum, would be at least equally bothered by pet shops since that's intentional breeding on a much larger and more horrific scale. I appreciate all the help and advice I've received in my short time posting here.
 
The
badwolf said:
Ok well I figured this post would attract differing opinions. Can't say I'm not a little disappointed about some of the replies. I appreciate those who have encouraged me to stay. I have enjoyed being a part of the forum, however I can't bring myself to participate when there's an issue that bothers me this much. My account is being deleted this evening, so after today I won't be able to reply to anything. Just wanted to clarify a couple of things before that happened. It was never my intention that members be criticised when they had purchased from pet shops and were unaware. I never wanted people to be turned away from help because of this. I was just surprised that when people talked about planning on purchasing from pet shops that this was freely allowed, when I'd seen members mention breeding/breeders and get the threat of a ban if they continued. I understand the stance on intentional breeding. I guess I thought that people, mainly those in charge of the forum, would be at least equally bothered by pet shops since that's intentional breeding on a much larger and more horrific scale. I appreciate all the help and advice I've received in my short time posting here.
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we don’t threaten to ban people for getting pigs from breeders or mentioning they are getting from breeders. We threaten to ban people who discuss intentional breeding or try to promote breeding or breeders there is a real difference in this.
I appreciate this thread as it is good to discuss things. As I said in my pm to you sorry you feel unable to stay.
Lee
 
None of my piggies are rescue piggies, unfortunately as I own snakes my options for rescue are very limited, quite rightly adopters don't know me or my intentions from Adam, so in the process of looking for the best home available for pigs that have already been let down I guess in the grand scheme of things, my home isn't that. Its not a risk worth taking a gamble on for them which I absolutely understand.

I currently have 4 pigs that are from breeders, they were very kindly given to me for free by people I now consider friends :) the rest are from pet stores. I wouldn't say the forum is hypocritical, I very much see the reasoning behind it, I myself however am. I will sit and tell others not to buy from stores unless they can really help it when in truth I am a sucker who bases my decisions on the individual pigs in front of me.

I saw Misty a couple of times before I bought her, I knew being mostly white and her friend being a gorgeous agouti Abby mix that next time I saw her she would be alone and of course that came true, I hated the idea of her ending up in a tiny hutch, forgotten and alone somewhere so I bought her.
Bailey and Pippin were from the same place, my Ebony was alone and miserable after losing 3 friends in as many months, she was acutely grieving, not moving and barely eating. They were the first female pigs I came across and Ebony needed them, I didn't have time to dwell on how ethical it was or not to be honest!
The other 4 (I think..maths was never my strong point and I've had a rough night :xd:) were purely selfish reasons, I saw them and I wanted them.

In spite of all that I have never felt judged by anyone here, I have received nothing but love and support, help and guidance when needed etc.
I won't lie, I need my pigs, the only reason I am alive today is because of the floof in my picture, Bramble, but that's a long story I won't go into..that being said, I have reached out to several organisations to find out about taking on laboratory piggies when they are no longer needed and would otherwise be put to sleep, but that's pretty slow going as this isn't something done on the regular apparently. If I cant adopt the conventional way, maybe I can rescue some lab pigs! :)
 
I agree with you totally but I saw my boar alone in the pet shop adoption area, fell in love with him, then saw him stuck there alone for weeks and weeks and weeks. I had to have him. He was the Boris to my 2 Olgas.

badwolf said:
Ok, so I apologise in advance for the potential controversy this thread may cause. I felt like I had to ask as I think this is a great forum, but something has been bothering me for a while. I understand and respect the forum's stance on intentional breeding, so I don't really want to mention that here. But I was wondering why intentional breeding is so looked down upon, with warnings given, yet people are freely allowed to talk about getting pigs from pet shops. Surely if the forum is against intentional breeding then their reasons for this would also mean giving warnings to people who advocate buying from pet shops? Large scale intentional breeding in horrific conditions (please look up rodent mills). Even smaller pet shops who might not source from these cruel large scale operations still have people intentionally breeding and not caring what happens to their animals. So yeah... been wondering why people aren't allowed to talk about piggy breeders but supporting pet shops is fine.
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I think it is different in the UK. Where I live in the US, the nearest guinea pig rescue is 98 miles away. I didn’t even know a guinea pig rescue was a thing until I joined the forum. I searched my area and found a chinchilla rescue very close to me and actually got Rapunzel and Belle there, but they only have guinea pigs occasionally. It is just a woman who runs a small rescue out of her house. I would never buy a dog from a pet store or breeder, all of my dogs have been from the local animal shelter or rescues. I wish there were more guinea pig rescues near me, but they just don’t exist.
 
Lady Kelly said:
I just want to say thank you for sharing your experience. It's not easy to say publicly how anxiety can affect you and you have clearly made excellent progress. I hope it continues to improve for you
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Thank you!

I just wanted to illustrate that sometimes it isn't as simple as just travelling that bit further. I'm happy to talk about my anxiety, but know sometimes people don't always want to reveal the exact reasons why they can't rescue. You can suggest and promote rescue, but if they say it's not for them you just have to let it be and do what you can to ensure that the piggies they do get have a wonderful life. You can't know a person's circumstances from a few lines written on a forum. But at no point have I ever seen "You should definitely look at a pet shop first!" when pet shops have been discussed.

I'm very sorry, though, @badwolf , to see that you have decided to leave.
 
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