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Piggie with problems chewing

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TangentKid

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Hi,

We have a 4 1/2 year old female piggie who has recently developed problems chewing her food. The full details are quite lengthy so I've written a short version and a long version for those who have more time on their hands.

We would be so grateful for any suggestions that people may have as we’re worn out with worry and the punishing syringe feeding schedule!

Thanks.

The short version
Over the last 3 weeks she has been to see a vet, a vet dentist and Vedra at the CCT twice. On each occasion her teeth have been trimmed and we had high hopes that she’d start eating again soon afterwards. In the first week she ate nothing herself but since then the symptoms have remained unchanged:

She is interested in food and when offered fresh veg such as soft cucumber or watercress she will give it a go. She gingerly takes the offering into her mouth and sometimes manages to chew but often has trouble and starts to lean her head from side to side, makes a yawning motion and makes the usual I’ve-got-something-stuck-in-my-teeth face. If we manage to get past this stage, the more she eats in a sitting the better she seems to get at chewing. Other times she decides that she just can’t do it and gives up after a few tries. However, even if she does manage to get good at chewing, after stopping for just 20 minutes we’re back to square one with the pulling faces when she tries food the next time.

The long version

We first noticed that there was a problem about 3 weeks ago when she started to drop small bits of food and then wouldn’t even touch her fresh veg breakfast. In the first week she deteriorated to eating nothing herself. She then improved slightly but since then the symptoms have remained unchanged:

She won’t touch hay or her Gertie mix so we’re feeding her a ground recovery mix by syringe 4 times a day. She is interested in fresh veg and when offered things like soft cucumber or watercress she will give it a go. She gingerly takes the offering into her mouth and sometimes manages to chew but often has trouble and starts to lean her head from side to side, makes a yawning motion and makes the usual I’ve-got-something-stuck-in-my-teeth face. If we manage to get past this stage, the more she eats in a sitting the better she seems to get at chewing. Other times she decides that she just can’t do it and gives up after a few tries.


As soon as we noticed the problem we took her to the local vet who said she had 2 ovarian cysts and needed her incisors trimming. They trimmed her teeth (under anaesthetic) and said to bring her back when she was back to normal to have her ovaries removed.

2 days later she was no better and we’d read that vets often don’t realise that teeth problems are usually with the molars and not just the incisors. We took her to a vet dentist who trimmed some spurs from her molars again under anaesthetic.

2 days later she was still not eating so we took her to Vedra at the CCT. She said that her molars were still overgrown so she trimmed them again and also drained her cysts and gave a hormone injection. She also suggested that she may have oral thrush and gave us a treatment regime which we have been following.

Over the following week she began to eat with more confidence but then suddenly stopped trying fresh food altogether. We then took her back to see Vedra who again said that there was overgrowth with her molars and trimmed them back. She also suggested that we give her some Nurofen in case she’s in pain.

We’re now 4 days on from the last visit and she’s showing more interest in trying food again and when offered fresh veg such as soft cucumber or watercress she will give it a go. She gingerly takes the offering into her mouth and sometimes manages to chew but often has trouble and starts to lean her head from side to side, makes a yawning motion and makes the usual I’ve-got-something-stuck-in-my-teeth face. If we manage to get past this stage, the more she eats in a sitting the better she seems to get at chewing. Other times she decides that she just can’t do it and gives up after a few tries. However, even if she does manage to get good at chewing, after stopping for just 20 minutes we’re back to square one with the pulling faces when she tries food the next time.

After giving Nurofen it’s usually more successful in getting her going with a good fresh feed so this would suggest that she’s probably in some sort of oral pain.

Even though her incisors were filed flat (again) just 3 days ago, the bottom ones are (again) worn down at an angle.

She now sits in the corner of her hutch hunched and fluffed up. When she sleeps she just rests her chin on the floor in the hunched position. We haven’t seen her relax and lie down properly for a couple of weeks. Her coat is in great condition and her eyes seem quite bright.

There’s loads more info that I could give but I think that this essay is long enough already!
 
The mouth pulling would indicate to me a fungal mouth problem still. Are you using Daktarin?

The Incisors worn at an angle means there are overgrown molars so another filing is necessary I would think.

I would never give my pigs Nurofen because of something it does to the stomach- I can't remember the terms and what it is that does it but will try and look it up. I give Meadow Sweet or Rimadyl as painkillers- but this seems to be working so up to you :)

Fungal mouth and dental probs take a while to 'get better' (and they do get better), its not unusual to have to keep going back. I hate syringe feeding too but when there's hope of recovery as it seems with your girl it has to be worth it :)

Can you post a pigture of her please?
 
Awww bless her :smitten:
I think it may be a case of keeping at it with the trimming of her molars. It seems like a vicious circle, the less she chews, the more they overgrow, the more they overgrow, the less she chews. Also, just chewing veg isnt enough to keep them down. Maybe offer her timothy hay as well to tempt her? As Karen says back for another dental :) Hope she improves for you :smitten:
 
I agree with Karen that it could be a fungal infection in the mouth/throat that is taking a time to clear up.Another possibilty,although this is unlikely as she has been seen by Vedra,is that there is a spur on the molars that is digging into the soft flesh.These are easy to overlook.My vet had a gp with a similar problem,and after 2 examinations,discovered a spur hidden under the tongue.
The Daktarin gel is very good for fungal problems and is also very soothing.When I use this I put a pea size blob straight into the mouth,and hold the piggy for at least 10 minutes to give the gel a chance to work.

I have had some success with sore mouths by using a Neem based toothpaste that was recommended to me by Chrissie at Gorgeous Guineas.You can get this from her website or you may be able to get it from a healthfood store.

I also agree with Karen that Nurafen is not suitable for gps.This is a NSAID which has a lot of side affects,including bleeding from the large colon.

I would use Metacam or Rimydal which themselves have side affects,but they are proven safer for gps than other analgesics. I have used Metacam many times on my pigs with no problem,and I know Karen is happy to use Rimaydal.
 
I am so sorry to hear about all the problems you are having with your piggy. We are going through exactly the same thing with our four year old boar at the moment. See Snowy's thread here for more details, go to page 2 http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14911.0 .

Despite having his teeth trimmed by Vedra and another local lady Snowy is still refusing to eat by himself, like your piggy he gets excited when fresh food arrives, but he can't seem to pick it up. We also get the paw at the mouth trying to remove food that I have slotted in :(.

When I last spoke to Vedra she said it can take several weeks for pigs to start eating for themselves. Snowy will happily take as much food as possible from a syringe, including blitzed up fresh veg, but he just won't feed himself. Daktarin definitely helped Snowy and he was fine on Rimadyl too.

Mary, Meadowsweet is a natural painkiller from Galens Garden, it is a natural source of Salicylic Acid, (the active ingredient in Aspirin). See the link here http://www.galensgarden.co.uk/shop/products.php?cat=10.

Good luck with your little girl TK.
 
Thanks for the very quick reply Karen.

We are still using the Daktarin twice daily. We started with 0.3ml three times a day for the first 2 weeks then were supposed to reduce to twice daily so that's what we've done.

I'm amazed if the molars need trimming again as they were last done by Vedra on Monday this week at the same time as the incisors were filed flat! The angle on the lower incisors started to reappear just the following day.

Maybe we should switch to a different pain killer. I guess that Meadow Sweet and Rimadyl are only available thru a vet though. is that right?

Thanks also for your words of support. It seems such a long tunnel and, so far, there's no light at the end. We'll just keep soldiering on with the syringe feeding. At least we're managing to get her to gain some weight at last. When we started we only gave 3ml syringe food 4 times a day. Clearly that was way too little and we're now up to 10ml x 4 times a day. When we manage to persuade her to eat some fresh that helps to get the weight up too.

Another strange thing we've noticed is that her poo is rather intermittent and squishy. She does seem to be eating poo-pellets so we're thinking that she might be eating pretty much all of them as they're all soft.

I'd live to post a picture but how do I do that?
 
Intermittant soft pellets are normal when syringe feeding for morew than a few days.Unless it becomes diarrheoa there is not too much to worry about.
 
Caviesgalore,


Thank you for info re Meadow Sweet,sounds interesting .I know Belinda Frances that runs Galens Garden,so will talk to her about it.

The saliyic acid used by drug companies is derived from Willow,and aspirin in that form can cause stomach ulcers and internal bleeding in some humans.I am not sure if it would cause the same side affect in gps,but I would not like to risk it.

Belinda is very knowledgeabl;e re alternative meds. so I may try the Meadow Sweet.It would be nice to have an alternative to Metacam.
 
No problems Mary. I found Belinda to be very helpful when I had a sick piggy and husband (!) 18 months ago and she spoke very highly of the Meadowsweet as an alternative to Metacam etc.
 
I have had a long informative chat with Belinda,and I will be getting some Meadow Sweet to keep in my medicine box.

It is a tincture ,so does contain alcohol,but Belinda explained how to burn this off easily and quickly.I have asked her to put this information on her website as there has recently been a lot of misunderstanding about tinctures and the alcohol content.
 
maryh said:
Karen,

What is Meadow Sweet?
As CG says its a pain killer from GG and one I looked into using for the Satins with OD (and indeed have used for them).

Tinctures are used in lots of products and are perfectly safe if people burn off the alcohol. They've saved and prolonged guineas lives where vets have failed :)
 
Yes, Belinda did say that the Meadow Sweet is particularly usefull for satins.
 
I send people there for early symptoms and recommend Rimadyl for later on. Belinda has been very helpful with the Satins and made up some potions for me :) It was good to finally meet her when we had a stall at the London show :) We had a great chat. :)
 
Belinda is lovely,and so helpful..I am lucky in that she used to live near me so I have known her for a long time.

She used to make up Peters oil therapies for me,.

She does not go to the shows any more,has not done so for a couple of years.She is just concentrating on research.
 
I don't know about going to shows it was just to meet us all there as we needed to talk and this was back in 2006, I didn't see her there last year so don't know.

I get the Meadow Sweet syrup as I can't be bothered with the burning off of alcohol, I've been told its easy but the syrup is just one less thing to do ::) This is just to make them comfy in their last wheeks (Satins) so I do it more because its cheaper than Rimadyl at that stage we know they are going to die anyway.

Did she make up the oils according to Peter's recipes?
 
Re Peters recipe,yes Belinda did make the oils up according to that.She later started selling them on her website and called them Piggy Potions!.They did work but I found them time consuming,because you have to repeat the treatment at least twice.GG shampoos and melts are quicker to use.
 
Hi all,

Nothing has really changed with Amy (for that's her name) over the last couple of days, still managing to chew small pieces of leaves & cucumber and getting better at chewing throughout the feeding session although not from one session to the next.

Something new that we've noticed is a 'sharp' grinding noise while we're syringe feeding her. It's not the usual molar sort of low frequency grinding but more like a pin being scraped along something brittle. I initially thought that it might be her wearing off sharp points on her clipped molars but now my suspicion is that it’s her incisors. I wonder if her molars are now so short that her incisors meet first while she’s trying to chew which is why she’s having such trouble.

Sorry to hear that Snowy is going through something similar. We’ll keep our fingers and paws crossed for him too.

We’ll keep up the Daktarin. Hopefully it’s helping, slowly.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. We've noted that we shouldn't use Nurofen (although it was Vedra who suggested it) and are in the process of getting hold of some Metacam. What's the dosage for piggies?
Once we get the Metacam she’ll hopefully relax down a bit. Currently she sits hunched and fluffed up also sleeping in that position with her chin on the floor. If only she could relax enough to get a good sleep I’m sure that she’d feel better.

We’re taking her to see a local lady (Dr Vic) who was recommended by Vedra and can operate the things that hold the mouth open. Hopefully she can take a look to see what’s going on with her teeth now. If the angled lower incisors mean another trim then that’s what we’ll need to do – although they became angled again just 1 day after Vedra last trimmed them! We’ll also take a look for spurs under her tongue.

I've added Amy's pic to my profile and there's loads of pics of her and her friend Trudy on their page: www.zen29046.zen.co.uk
 
Hi, That noise is definitely teeth. I was wondering if she was Satin but she doesn't look it. Though they do lose their Satinisation.

I use Rimadyl as I've heard of guinea pigs that have not responded well to Metacam. Vedra uses Rimadyl so there shouldn't be a problem there. I use 10mg x2 daily for a 3lb pig.

Do you think her molars are regrowing?

Re Nurofen: Vedra suggested it, a rodentologist (who is very highly respected) researched it and found out the probs with it. Human products are fine in an emergency and ten or so years ago were useful but there really is no need now with all the access we have to stuff online (ie Meadow Sweet Syrup, Oxbow Critical Care, Probiotics, Gorgeous Guineas products etc etc).
 
Often this grinding is caused by a misalignment of the jaw(but not always). Iy might be a good idea to have an x ray done.
 
Hi All, Mary & Karen,

We took Amy to see Victoria Carey this evening who is a rodentologist recommended by Vedra that lives much nearer to us. She looked at her teeth and said that there was still one tooth that was growing into her tongue so she trimmed that. In the process of doing so it actually broke off below the gum line. It had possibly been fractured during a previous dental session. Hopefully this isn't likely to make things worse!

Both her upper and lower incisors were worn at a severe angle. I'd read that this is usually a sign of overgrown molars on one side of the mouth. Hopefully the tooth that broke off was the one in question. Both sets of incisors were then trimmed and filed. It would appear that they occlude end on rather than the upper ones in front of the lower. I imagine that this would mean her molars don't even contact each other since they were trimmed which might explain why she's having such trouble chewing at the moment. Since the above the sharp scratching noise seems to have reduced greatly and we're just keeping our fingers crossed that she starts grinding her molars herself soon. How I look forward to hearing those grinding noises coming from her once more.

Although she does seem a little brighter after this latest tooth-trauma, she still sits hunched and fluffed up so we'll get her some Rimadyl or Metacam tomorrow. I see that Rimadyl is usually in tablet form. How do you manage to administer the correct dose Karen? Is is crushed up into a known volume of water and divided down and administered that way?

Karen - I don't think that Amy has any satin in her. She came from show bred American Crested lineage but that's all we know. I had heard about satins having problems with their jaws seizing up. Is that what you were thinking?

Mary - The Vet Dentist did do an X-Ray while she was with him. We've asked for a copy but I hope that he would have mentioned if he'd spotted anything wrong. It might of course only show the teeth rather than the jaw alignment.
 
yes, this is the exact problem I had with a satin that had OD, the teeth were wearing away and not growing back there was black pitting (but much more than usual dental decay that my vet had seen before)- its possible of course this was holes.

If its OD you can only make her comfy anyway and with this particular sow she need regular filing of her Incisors which grew at an angle like your pigs because the molars were 'trashed'.
No reason why it has to be OD it just sounded familiar and I always ask the breed now :)

With Rimadyl I break the tablet in half for 10mg and place on the back of the tongue, they soon chew it up :) Have never needed to powder them which is another thing I like about it.

Do you have any Neem toothpaste to swab round her mouth? See Gorgeous Guineas and I think I would want some Baytril too just in case though I may be being over cautious here...
 
Hi Karen,

We don't know a great deal about GP breeds but were told at the show where we bought our two that Amy was an American Crested and Trudy (the white one) has some satin in her. Having read your leaflet about OD I'm wondering if Amy does have satin in her. She has always had a lovely glossy coat and bright eyes. Are you able to tell from any of the pics on our website: www.zen29046.zen.co.uk ?

Some of the symptoms in your leaflet are quite accurate. Especially the back leg hopping one - she's done this for as long as we can remember when she runs although she doesn't stand or lie awkwardly. Far from being unsteady she (used to be) really fast. You mention that symptoms usually start at 12 to 18 months but how long do they tend to go on from there? Is it typical for a piggie that does have OD to make it to 4 1/2 ?

The Vet dentist did do an x-Ray of her mouth. I wonder if this would show up the problem. We have asked for a copy but so far nothing has shown up in the post. Or does it need to be a full body x-ray. We'd rather not put her through sedation again to take an x-ray as I believe that most vets will sedate a GP to take one. I know that Vedra can do x-rays without but I feel a bit strange asking her to do one as she hasn't mentioned the possibility of OD yet. Do you think that a 'regular' vet would be able to diagnose OD from an x-ray?

When the molar broke off (could it have been brittle due to OD?) last night I did notice that the top was quite black but I don't know what a normal tooth should look like. We kept the piece in case it was important for anything! I've put a photo here: www.zen29046.zen.co.uk/tooth.jpg

From what the various people we’ve seen have said, at least some of her teeth do still seem to be growing. Quite quickly in fact as Vedra had to trim them twice, just 10 days apart. However, if I understand correctly, the problem with OD isn’t always the teeth not growing but sometimes that the jaw hurts when the animal tries to chew. is that right?

I really hope that it’s not OD but, if it might be we should get a diagnosis a.s.a.p. in case she’s suffering from something that’s not curable.

Meanwhile we'll get the Rimadyl (or Metacam if that's what the vet decides to give us) and anything else that might make her more comfortable. We’re currently giving her Daktarin 2 x daily – would you give Neem aswell? Also I guess that Baytril is prescription only so that will be up to the vet too.

Thanks again for all your help & advice.
 
On another note...
Amy does seem to be eating a lot of her poo. In fact she even follows her friend around and tries to pinch poo straight out of her bottom! As her diet is being entirely driven by us - syringe feeding Vedra's ground up rescue formula - could she be lacking some vitamins that would drive her to do this? Or maybe we're just not feeding her enough and she's desperately hungry - we're giving her 4 x 10ml of syringe food per day.

Thanks.
 
I'm not going to be much help at all i'm afraid but would like to wish you all the very very best with little Amy :smitten: :smitten:

i've never seen a toofie like that before :-\ can you send this picture to your rodentologist as well as Vedra for their advice....
If you're little one has OD i know of a girl in the Netherlands who's little girl has it also i could ask her for some links for you.... let me know if you need this when you find out O0 just pm me O0

as for chasing her cage mate and pinching poos i believe they do that when they need the extra vitamins and that it's quite normal O0 You can even feed the other healthier piggies poos to your little one as they have all the goodness from the other piggie :)
 
Hi Glynis,

Thanks for your kind words and support. We're keeping our fingers crossed that it's not OD and that she'll get better. We should get her some pain killers later today so that might make her more comfortable, whatever is wrong.

Since she had her teeth trimmed on Sunday evening her eating has gone right downhill :( She used to be able to manage quite a bit once she got going but now it's practically zero. I think that she's lost her confidence now that her incisors are so short that they no longer meet :(
 
Hi love i've been thru this a number of times, it takes up to 3-4 days for them to grow just enough for them to start grabbing their own food again .....keep encouraging her, which it sounds like you are already :smitten: O0
btw piggies can live with OD it's just not an easy time and their life span unfortunately is shorter :'( but let's not go that track yet, i hope the results are not down that line O0

Wishing you all the best, don't forget to let me know O0 :smitten:
 
Hi Glynis,

Thanks for the info. I was hoping that things would improve in a few days. That's the way it worked the first time Vedra did her teeth. It took a couple of days for her to get them working again. This morning she was so keen to eat, she was squeaking and climbing up the front of her hutch. It was so sad to see her turn down almost everything I offered. The only bits that she did take were a tiny sliver of cucumber and a bit of grape.

We'll keep everyone updated of her progress here.
 
When I went home to do the lunchtime feed I noticed that Amy is dribbling again but this time it smells rather fishy. Could that be an infection setting in? I flushed her mouth out as best I could after the feed then gave her the usual Daktarin gel. I wonder if it's time to take her over to see Vedra yet again.
 
Fishy smell doesn't sound nice - it could be an infection, can you see anything?

Sorry I don't know much more but hope someone more helpful will be along soon!

:)
 
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