Pain when peeing and pooping since bladder stone surgery

[Josie_lg]

Hiya everyone, just here for some advice, my poppy had surgery about 5 weeks ago to remove a bladder stone. Ever since the surgery she has still had squeaky wees and poops but seems more squeaky than usual the last week or so since trying to wean her off the gabapentin so it’s come back up. We are going to have to scanned again to check her bladder. The vet that did the surgery said her bladder may still be inflamed as it was so inflamed at the time of surgery. But I’m just wondering. Can their bladders be left scarred, might she be inflamed forever. Crystals were found, she is on boiled and then filtered water, metacam, nutracyst and potassium citrate. Will crystals always be there, can they actually ever go away. I’m feeling very anxious and worries and sad for her. I don’t want her to be sore still. Anyone with anyone advice or experience please share. Thank you.

 

[Pound Shilling & Pig]

I am sorry your piggy is unwell. Bladder issues can be a real problem to get on top of. Yes, her bladder could still be inflamed and it may be she will need to remain on metacam for life. Having her scanned again soon is a good idea. A piggy i had with long term bladder issues was put on long term metacam and also given tramadol from time to time when she had flare ups.

 

[Swissgreys]

I had similar issues with Ruby after she had a flush for bladder sludge.
Honestly I thought she was never going to recover, but it just took a long time - 4-6 weeks at least.
I carried on with the Metacam as well as a long course of antibiotics (she needed 2 types in the end) as well as Cystease for months afterwards.

Don't loose hope, it can just take a while when their bladders have been so irritated for a long time.
You are doing everything right and I think a rescan to check the current state of her bladder after surgery is a good idea.

 

[Josie_lg]

Thank you for your replies. I really appreciate it. We took her back for another scan this week and it was all clear no stones or anything just some slight inflammation of the bladder. However today she’s started having blood in her urine again. Which is really upsetting. But now I am baffled. If there are no stones what’s causing the blood. I feel so defeated.

 

[Josie_lg]

She’s already on potassium citrate, metacam, gabapentin and nutracyst (glucosamine) filtered water. Careful diet.

 

[Josie_lg]

Hi everyone I’m sorry to keep posting on here but I am desperate. Poppy is still in comfortable since the surgery. She’s had a small amount of blood in her wee but nothing major. The ultrasound from a few weeks ago came back clear. I’m just very upset and confused at what to do. The vet is also baffled. Could the stone have damaged the lining of her bladder potentially. Sorry to keep posting on here
It’s just so gutting when we are doing everything correctly and she’s still sore

 

[weepweeps]

I’m sorry Poppy is still uncomfortable. I think it can take quite a long time for the lining to recover. Keep giving all the meds. Hopefully she will slowly start to recover. If you’re really worried or she gets worse I’d have her seen again. I had a piggy with a bladder stone but he only survived 3 days after surgery. So I haven’t got any experience of the after care.

 

[Free Ranger]

It looks like Poppy is not on antibiotics. She may have a bladder infection. Did she have any antibiotics when she was recovering from the surgery?

Option 1:
If you want to know for sure you can take a sample of urine with a little kit from the vets - it's basically a plastic tube and a plastic pipette with a squeezy end. You put piggy in a clean plastic bowl and wait till she produces then pipette what you can into the tube. Take it into the vet as soon as you can. You make arrangements about what they will do with it when you pick up the kit. BUT it can take a number of days to get the answer and it will cost more. The vet can have a quick squizz under a microscope to see if they can see anything, or it may be sent off to a lab for culture. You can ask the price for either. The lab can also test for antibiotic sensitivity if they can grow anything up...
Option 2: (This one!)
Or you could do what we tend to do which is just get the vet to put them straight on antibiotics as they've already been in difficulty for a while. If I had a urine infection myself I do take a sample to the doc but I don't expect him to spend 5 days waiting to see for sure before he coughs up with a script. The vet can still give antibiotics when you go whether or not they send off the sample.

My old George started with pain in October. We found a sizable bladder stone and also a UTI. The UTI has been a right pain to shift because the first antibiotic (Baytril) didn't work and the second (Septrin) did, but it affected his guts significantly so there's been a lot of weight loss and syringing. This past week it looks like he's been clear - fingers crossed. Of course we kept thinking the blood in his pee was the stone - it's right there like the painful elephant in the room. But he had significantly more pain from the UTI which inflamed his bladder and made his pee red. And how did we know for sure? Because his loud cries quietened down within a day or so of starting Septrin. In his case it took about 5 days for the red tint to leave his pee (although it did lessen every day). But he was on it for 10 days (first course) and then 3 weeks (2nd course) to clear it completely and tbh he may have to go back on it in the future. I once had a little girl who had to have 2 x 3 week courses to shift one(!) and she had no other issues like surgery or stones.

People tend to think, "Is it a stone? Or is it UTI? Or maybe even sterile IC (SIC)?" but it's not necessarily an "Or" situation. These aren't mutually exclusive - you can have more than one at the same time - which isn't just incredibly bad luck, it's possible that having one increases your chance of getting another. George has thrown a stone at the same time as a UTI. An SIC piggy called BB has recently had a stone removed.

Try some antibiotics and see if she improves - and George says to remember if the first ones don't work that doesn't necessarily mean no infection!
Hang in there Poppy x

 

[Josie_lg]

I’m sorry Poppy is still uncomfortable. I think it can take quite a long time for the lining to recover. Keep giving all the meds. Hopefully she will slowly start to recover. If you’re really worried or she gets worse I’d have her seen again. I had a piggy with a bladder stone but he only survived 3 days after surgery. So I haven’t got any experience of the after care.

Thank you so much for your advice. I’m in regular contact with vets as I work in a veterinary clinic. I wonder if the sharp stone has caused trauma.

 

[Josie_lg]

It looks like Poppy is not on antibiotics. She may have a bladder infection. Did she have any antibiotics when she was recovering from the surgery?

Option 1:
If you want to know for sure you can take a sample of urine with a little kit from the vets - it's basically a plastic tube and a plastic pipette with a squeezy end. You put piggy in a clean plastic bowl and wait till she produces then pipette what you can into the tube. Take it into the vet as soon as you can. You make arrangements about what they will do with it when you pick up the kit. BUT it can take a number of days to get the answer and it will cost more. The vet can have a quick squizz under a microscope to see if they can see anything, or it may be sent off to a lab for culture. You can ask the price for either. The lab can also test for antibiotic sensitivity if they can grow anything up...
Option 2: (This one!)
Or you could do what we tend to do which is just get the vet to put them straight on antibiotics as they've already been in difficulty for a while. If I had a urine infection myself I do take a sample to the doc but I don't expect him to spend 5 days waiting to see for sure before he coughs up with a script. The vet can still give antibiotics when you go whether or not they send off the sample.

My old George started with pain in October. We found a sizable bladder stone and also a UTI. The UTI has been a right pain to shift because the first antibiotic (Baytril) didn't work and the second (Septrin) did, but it affected his guts significantly so there's been a lot of weight loss and syringing. This past week it looks like he's been clear - fingers crossed. Of course we kept thinking the blood in his pee was the stone - it's right there like the painful elephant in the room. But he had significantly more pain from the UTI which inflamed his bladder and made his pee red. And how did we know for sure? Because his loud cries quietened down within a day or so of starting Septrin. In his case it took about 5 days for the red tint to leave his pee (although it did lessen every day). But he was on it for 10 days (first course) and then 3 weeks (2nd course) to clear it completely and tbh he may have to go back on it in the future. I once had a little girl who had to have 2 x 3 week courses to shift one(!) and she had no other issues like surgery or stones.

People tend to think, "Is it a stone? Or is it UTI? Or maybe even sterile IC (SIC)?" but it's not necessarily an "Or" situation. These aren't mutually exclusive - you can have more than one at the same time - which isn't just incredibly bad luck, it's possible that having one increases your chance of getting another. George has thrown a stone at the same time as a UTI. An SIC piggy called BB has recently had a stone removed.

Try some antibiotics and see if she improves - and George says to remember if the first ones don't work that doesn't necessarily mean no infection!
Hang in there Poppy x

Thank you so much for this very informative advice. So she had the stone removed almost 8 weeks ago now. We originally did a urine test which showed crystals and then she went for surgery. Her bladder was apparently not full enough to do a cysto to collect urine but the surgeon was already planning to take a biopsy of her bladder as he had said that infection can cause stones. Stones can cause infection etc. That came back clear. No infection. However she was on sulfatrim for 2 weeks post op due to a concern of aspiration pneumonia during surgery (scary thought and is one reason I wished more places intubated small mammals)
I spoke with a vet today. She wants to do another urine test and send the urine off. She did ideally want to do a cysto but I just don’t know if I want poppy sedated really
It’s the pain that is just so sad. Despite metacam and gabapentin there’s still pain. I’m not sure what else can dissolve crystals other than the potassium citrate. Filtered water. Low calcium diet and high water content. She’s on nutracyst already. And I’ve discussed catrofen injections with the vet who said we could get those ordered in. I’m almost hoping for an infection. Because if it truly is the trauma the stone has caused and the crystals I don’t know what else to do or what else to try. I just feel so awful for her that even after surgery and a long recovery she still has pain

 

[Josie_lg]

I also forgot to add that her PH was slightly high when we first run a urine test at the time the stone was diagnosed.

 

[Free Ranger]

Are you in the UK? (your county might be a useful addition to the location bar)
It strikes me that the proposed way forward is 'correct' on paper but is it the best route for Poppy? In practice I've been at 3 vets here in the UK in my time and none of them have ever gone through so many steps before offering AB for a possible infection. Are they doing this as a sort of 'teaching experience' because you work there?

I mean, yes, cystoscopy... biopsy... but like I said, if I went to the docs and told him it hurt a lot when I peed he wouldn't make me wait for tests. He'd take a pee sample then give me a script straight off to see if it made any difference. If no, he'd probably try another AB tbh. If yes, it's the fastest, simplest (and cheapest) way to relief while the sample is cultured up (the culture is most useful for AB resistance if that turns out to be a problem). I'm not a vet but I did used to be a microbiologist and I understand care has to be taken to avoid overuse of antibiotics generally. I'm not blind to the fact that urine can be contaminated with gut bacteria and that some bacteria can be very difficult to culture up which may give a 'negative' culture when actually there is something there causing a problem.

It might be down to these crystals for your poor girl, or she might end up with an SIC diagnosis (is she on a glucosamine supplement by the way?) but she hurts right now and I'd think treating it as a suspected infection has got to be worth a shot. Was she crying like this when she was on the antibiotic originally? Or perhaps her breathing issue was masking things.

Be brave Poppy x

 

[Josie_lg]

Are you in the UK? (your county might be a useful addition to the location bar)
It strikes me that the proposed way forward is 'correct' on paper but is it the best route for Poppy? In practice I've been at 3 vets here in the UK in my time and none of them have ever gone through so many steps before offering AB for a possible infection. Are they doing this as a sort of 'teaching experience' because you work there?

I mean, yes, cystoscopy... biopsy... but like I said, if I went to the docs and told him it hurt a lot when I peed he wouldn't make me wait for tests. He'd take a pee sample then give me a script straight off to see if it made any difference. If no, he'd probably try another AB tbh. If yes, it's the fastest, simplest (and cheapest) way to relief while the sample is cultured up (the culture is most useful for AB resistance if that turns out to be a problem). I'm not a vet but I did used to be a microbiologist and I understand care has to be taken to avoid overuse of antibiotics generally. I'm not blind to the fact that urine can be contaminated with gut bacteria and that some bacteria can be very difficult to culture up which may give a 'negative' culture when actually there is something there causing a problem.

It might be down to these crystals for your poor girl, or she might end up with an SIC diagnosis (is she on a glucosamine supplement by the way?) but she hurts right now and I'd think treating it as a suspected infection has got to be worth a shot. Was she crying like this when she was on the antibiotic originally? Or perhaps her breathing issue was masking things.

Be brave Poppy x

Thank you for your reply. Yes urine was tested at the first onset of symptoms (may 2021). Back in October when her flare up was unusually bad and I brought her in we tested her urine and they found no bacteria only crystals and red blood cells. She then had the ultrasound and CT scan to diagnose the stone. Went into surgery and had a biopsy taken of the bladder at the same time as the stone removal which was cultured at an external lab and came back clear. All very strange. Yes she’s been on nutracyst since 2021 (I’ve already asked my vet about catrofen and we are looking at maybe getting that ordered)
I also am worried about that. So she’s going back next week to have another urine sample.
Basically to help you. She initially had symptoms of cystitis may 2021, lots of scans over a few weeks and no stones etc. So has been treated with dietary changes filtered water and meds. Including nutracyst and metacam when needed. After going away on holiday for 4 days when she came home she seemed extra squeaky when weeing and there was blood. This wasn’t unusual as any stressful experience used to trigger her bladder. But that’s when I took her in and we found the stone.
It just feels like before the stone any pain with her bladder was intermittent. But since surgery it’s like it’s all the time ! My poor girl. I almost hope they find an infection. But I will be asking for antibiotics anyways.

 

[Josie_lg]

When she was on the antibiotics for suspected aspiration. (I believe it was actually a reaction to the anaesthetic drugs) as it wore off after a few days. At the time of starting these it was only 24 hours post surgery. She started crying with her wees and poops only about 5 days after surgery and has been sore since. But worse for the last month. (Surgery was October) we took her back for another scan incase another stone but all clear.

 

[Free Ranger]

Poor girl, and poor you x
I've no personal experience of SIC but it must be very difficult. Does she maintain her weight OK? People on here with experience talk about managing flare ups but usually they mean for a few weeks (sometimes quite a few) at a time. It does seem like she has something else going on...

 

[Josie_lg]

Poor girl, and poor you x
I've no personal experience of SIC but it must be very difficult. Does she maintain her weight OK? People on here with experience talk about managing flare ups but usually they mean for a few weeks (sometimes quite a few) at a time. It does seem like she has something else going on...

It’s all very strange. She’s had a CT scan-that was clear other than the stone. Bladder biopsy’s, countless x rays and ultrasounds. I really wonder if the stone has caused trauma. She’s going in tomorrow (all going well as have had some heavy snow) to hopefully have another ultrasound and send a urine sample off. Yesterday she seemed much better. Did wees with no crying. Today is sore again. I wonder if it is SIC and crystals combined.

 

[Free Ranger]

It'd be worth asking your vet about the lining of the bladder. I had it in mind that trauma to the inner surface can be repaired because of what people say about glucosamine helping. The lining of the gut is constantly being replaced as cells slough off. I suppose it makes me wonder about the likelihood of permanent trauma to the bladder from a previous stone. But if she generates these crystals and they hurt her... I mean do they actually hurt? Or is the danger with crystals more that they can form the nucleus of a fresh stone if they are not passed.

The other thing you might ask about is the chance of an internal adhesion following her surgery - so it's not the urine passing that bothers her but that the bladder contracting might pull on something else. But again this is beyond my experience. I've only read on here about other types of surgery that have unwittingly resulted in gut adhesions but that was from swelling - antibiotics were apparently used to reduce the swelling so perhaps that alleviated the adhesions. I can try and contact that member if it is of any help.

SIC can be triggered by stress but also by diet in some cases - do you make any concessions for that? Apparently some piggies are triggered by lettuce..?
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

 

[Josie_lg]

It'd be worth asking your vet about the lining of the bladder. I had it in mind that trauma to the inner surface can be repaired because of what people say about glucosamine helping. The lining of the gut is constantly being replaced as cells slough off. I suppose it makes me wonder about the likelihood of permanent trauma to the bladder from a previous stone. But if she generates these crystals and they hurt her... I mean do they actually hurt? Or is the danger with crystals more that they can form the nucleus of a fresh stone if they are not passed.

The other thing you might ask about is the chance of an internal adhesion following her surgery - so it's not the urine passing that bothers her but that the bladder contracting might pull on something else. But again this is beyond my experience. I've only read on here about other types of surgery that have unwittingly resulted in gut adhesions but that was from swelling - antibiotics were apparently used to reduce the swelling so perhaps that alleviated the adhesions. I can try and contact that member if it is of any help.

SIC can be triggered by stress but also by diet in some cases - do you make any concessions for that? Apparently some piggies are triggered by lettuce..?
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

That’s a very interesting point. I had not thought of an adhesion. I wonder how that’s diagnosed ? Yes we try to keep her as stress free as possible. Very careful with diet and routine. They are all very tame loving piggies and very much enjoy being inside with people around. But I’ve found no link to her pain with stress since surgery. Whereas before she would have flare ups after thunderstorms, fireworks or a change in environment.
It would be so very helpful if that member could share their experience with an adhesion.
I was told after her surgery her bladder was unusually inflamed. More than the vet was expecting. I suppose crystals can never be cured can they only managed
She’s on potassium citrate. I don’t know if there are any other meds that “dissolve” crystals as such. It’s so difficult! She’s such a sensitive piggie too. Just want her to be happy and comfortable

 

[Josie_lg]

Just an update from today. The vet was unable to express her bladder as it was empty so we will have to collect the urine at home and bring it in. She did another ultrasound. Bladder inflamed. And then there’s something in the bladder. She said she doesn’t know what it is. She said it may be scarr tissue or sludge or the start of another stone. Which isn’t the news I wanted. She needs to have boluses of subcut fluids every day for a week and then to re scan to see if it’s maybe sludge and to push it all out. I’m very worried. And quite upset. Even after doing everything “right” they still found something
For now we will keep her moving and hydrated to help everything flushing through. I just hope and pray we aren’t going to get anymore stones.
Quite shocking too as the scan 2 weeks ago was clear.

 

[Wiebke]

That’s a very interesting point. I had not thought of an adhesion. I wonder how that’s diagnosed ? Yes we try to keep her as stress free as possible. Very careful with diet and routine. They are all very tame loving piggies and very much enjoy being inside with people around. But I’ve found no link to her pain with stress since surgery. Whereas before she would have flare ups after thunderstorms, fireworks or a change in environment.
It would be so very helpful if that member could share their experience with an adhesion.
I was told after her surgery her bladder was unusually inflamed. More than the vet was expecting. I suppose crystals can never be cured can they only managed
She’s on potassium citrate. I don’t know if there are any other meds that “dissolve” crystals as such. It’s so difficult! She’s such a sensitive piggie too. Just want her to be happy and comfortable

Hi

HUGS
I am very sorry for your problems.
My Hywel suffered gut adhesion in the wake of blood bacteria causing a band of swelling at the back of the groin; the band of swelling could be clearly palpitated - about 2-3 weeks post-op. It is a very rare complication and resulted in massive pain, quick loss of weight/total loss of appetite/apathy and a very fast deterioration.

The operating vet (via a local rescue) had no idea and didn't want to do anything but I did at at least get some painkiller out of him when Hywel was seen on the Friday afternoon in the time before the UK got mandatory vet cover. Forum members helped me with further tips late at night and @furryfriends (TEAS) managed to get Hywel an emergency appointment after the weekend at the Cat&Rabbit Care Clinic in Northampton. With tiny but frequent round the clock feeds Hywel was being kept alive over the weekend. At the Cat&Rabbit he was put on zithromax (two courses) and high metacam for the long term to get the band of swelling down. Thankfully, it contracted away from the gut and not further towards the gut, which would have meant the end of him. Hywel did make a full recovery and lived a very happy and fulfilled boar life for another 5 1/2 years until very shortly before his 7th birthday.
However, your problem sounds different. Just to rule out that point.

I am very sorry about the bladder trauma.
New stones or sludge can form to quite some size within just a few weeks after a bladder op; it is the most dangerous time for a bladder piggy. Any dietary measures take several weeks to come through in the body and - depending what is going wrong with the calcium absorption process - the stone removal operation cannot stop it. We have had piggies needing a second bladder stone op in very quick succession but they have come through that. There is usually not a third large stone because by then any changes you make with feeding is kicking in; at the worst, you are facing recurring sludge or grit if the calcium processing remains disturbed. My Cariad still lived another 2 years, including a full-on emergency spay just a few months later when her womb went horribly wrong and reached the average life span of 5 years despite her weight never climbing above 700g again.

 

[Josie_lg]

Hi

HUGS
I am very sorry for your problems.
My Hywel suffered gut adhesion in the wake of blood bacteria causing a band of swelling at the back of the groin; the band of swelling could be clearly palpitated - about 2-3 weeks post-op. It is a very rare complication and resulted in massive pain, quick loss of weight/total loss of appetite/apathy and a very fast deterioration.

The operating vet (via a local rescue) had no idea and didn't want to do anything but I did at at least get some painkiller out of him when Hywel was seen on the Friday afternoon in the time before the UK got mandatory vet cover. Forum members helped me with further tips late at night and @furryfriends (TEAS) managed to get Hywel an emergency appointment after the weekend at the Cat&Rabbit Care Clinic in Northampton. With tiny but frequent round the clock feeds Hywel was being kept alive over the weekend. At the Cat&Rabbit he was put on zithromax (two courses) and high metacam for the long term to get the band of swelling down. Thankfully, it contracted away from the gut and not further towards the gut, which would have meant the end of him. Hywel did make a full recovery and lived a very happy and fulfilled boar life for another 5 1/2 years until very shortly before his 7th birthday.
However, your problem sounds different. Just to rule out that point.

I am very sorry about the bladder trauma.
New stones or sludge can form to quite some size within just a few weeks after a bladder op; it is the most dangerous time for a bladder piggy. Any dietary measures take several weeks to come through in the body and - depending what is going wrong with the calcium absorption process - the stone removal operation cannot stop it. We have had piggies needing a second bladder stone op in very quick succession but they have come through that. There is usually not a third large stone because by then any changes you make with feeding is kicking in; at the worst, you are facing recurring sludge or grit if the calcium processing remains disturbed. My Cariad still lived another 2 years, including a full-on emergency spay just a few months later when her womb went horribly wrong and reached the average life span of 5 years despite her weight never climbing above 700g again.

Thank you for your reply. I don’t know if adhesion is a possibility. She’s been going in for some subcut fluids to help flush the bladder out. And I think her wees seem to be more comfortable since having the fluids. I just would like to know if there are meds to dissolve urinary crystals in piggies or if it is truly a matter of diet and keep the bladder flushing through. She’s feeling quite sensitive and sad as the injections sting. But they’ve been quite calm at the vets as have had a nice room to themselves.

 

[Wiebke]

Finding the soft spot in your diet between too little and too much calcium is the most reliable measure you can do and the one that is in your control.

There is unfortunately not yet a medication that works reliably; it also depends on what exactly is going wrong if the problem is not caused by a gross overload of calcium in the diet. Some vets prescribe additionally potassium citrate but it often doesn't make a noticeable difference. Guinea pigs have naturally a very alkaline urine that doesn't respond well to acidifying meds.

 

[Josie_lg]

Finding the soft spot in your diet between too little and too much calcium is the most reliable measure you can do and the one that is in your control.

There is unfortunately not yet a medication that works reliably; it also depends on what exactly is going wrong if the problem is not caused by a gross overload of calcium in the diet. Some vets prescribe additionally potassium citrate but it often doesn't make a noticeable difference. Guinea pigs have naturally a very alkaline urine that doesn't respond well to acidifying meds.

Thank you. Yes she’s on potassium citrate and I can’t say it’s done much. She is very sore today. It’s very difficult and upsetting. There’s some blood in there today. We ran a urine sample at the vets which showed crystals which we already knew. And some bacteria so we have some antibiotics. We are sending the urine off for further analysis. She has her ultrasound tomorrow to see what’s going on inside the bladder after a week of fluids. I’m extremely worried and upset. Can scar tissue or crystals really cause this much discomfort. She seemed so much better a few days ago. But then is having a really bad day today

 

[Josie_lg]

It looks like Poppy is not on antibiotics. She may have a bladder infection. Did she have any antibiotics when she was recovering from the surgery?

Option 1:
If you want to know for sure you can take a sample of urine with a little kit from the vets - it's basically a plastic tube and a plastic pipette with a squeezy end. You put piggy in a clean plastic bowl and wait till she produces then pipette what you can into the tube. Take it into the vet as soon as you can. You make arrangements about what they will do with it when you pick up the kit. BUT it can take a number of days to get the answer and it will cost more. The vet can have a quick squizz under a microscope to see if they can see anything, or it may be sent off to a lab for culture. You can ask the price for either. The lab can also test for antibiotic sensitivity if they can grow anything up...
Option 2: (This one!)
Or you could do what we tend to do which is just get the vet to put them straight on antibiotics as they've already been in difficulty for a while. If I had a urine infection myself I do take a sample to the doc but I don't expect him to spend 5 days waiting to see for sure before he coughs up with a script. The vet can still give antibiotics when you go whether or not they send off the sample.

My old George started with pain in October. We found a sizable bladder stone and also a UTI. The UTI has been a right pain to shift because the first antibiotic (Baytril) didn't work and the second (Septrin) did, but it affected his guts significantly so there's been a lot of weight loss and syringing. This past week it looks like he's been clear - fingers crossed. Of course we kept thinking the blood in his pee was the stone - it's right there like the painful elephant in the room. But he had significantly more pain from the UTI which inflamed his bladder and made his pee red. And how did we know for sure? Because his loud cries quietened down within a day or so of starting Septrin. In his case it took about 5 days for the red tint to leave his pee (although it did lessen every day). But he was on it for 10 days (first course) and then 3 weeks (2nd course) to clear it completely and tbh he may have to go back on it in the future. I once had a little girl who had to have 2 x 3 week courses to shift one(!) and she had no other issues like surgery or stones.

People tend to think, "Is it a stone? Or is it UTI? Or maybe even sterile IC (SIC)?" but it's not necessarily an "Or" situation. These aren't mutually exclusive - you can have more than one at the same time - which isn't just incredibly bad luck, it's possible that having one increases your chance of getting another. George has thrown a stone at the same time as a UTI. An SIC piggy called BB has recently had a stone removed.

Try some antibiotics and see if she improves - and George says to remember if the first ones don't work that doesn't necessarily mean no infection!
Hang in there Poppy x

Can I ask how you knew they had a bad UTI that was difficult to shift. Did they sample the urine at all or was it based on the symptoms.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you. Yes she’s on potassium citrate and I can’t say it’s done much. She is very sore today. It’s very difficult and upsetting. There’s some blood in there today. We ran a urine sample at the vets which showed crystals which we already knew. And some bacteria so we have some antibiotics. We are sending the urine off for further analysis. She has her ultrasound tomorrow to see what’s going on inside the bladder after a week of fluids. I’m extremely worried and upset. Can scar tissue or crystals really cause this much discomfort. She seemed so much better a few days ago. But then is having a really bad day today

Hi

I know that you are craving answers but I can unfortunately not give them to you, and any wild speculation won't help you at this stage, either. All the best for the ultrasound tomorrow. I sincerely hope that you can then take it from there. It is always very worrying.

HUGS

 

[Josie_lg]

Thank you We have been back to the vets today. They re scanned her bladder they said the “sediment” is definitely sediment but that it looks smaller than before and you can actually see it moving around. She sort of jiggled the bladder and she did a big wee and lots of sediment came out. The vet has given her a large bolus of fluid along with some buprenorphine to see if it will help flush it out. Unfortunately during the scan the vet has found a hernia on her tummy right above where the surgery site was. Where the suture knot was under the skin. She said a surgery may be needed to repair this. I’m obviously quite upset. I don’t want my girl having another surgery. But she said at the moment it’s not needed as it’s not in the “intestinal loops” but if it gets bigger or she stops pooping or starts straining to poo then a surgery is needed to repair it. We will start the antibiotics tonight along with tummy massage and continue what we are doing. Any experiences with hernias post surgery I am keen to hear about. Thank you.

 

[Josie_lg]

She’s been very quiet tonight which the vet said she could be. Due to the bupe being quite strong and making her a little sleepy. She seemed much comfier earlier not phased by being at the vets at all. Even snatched the cucumber away from me straight after the injection. I can’t believe how rare hernias seem to be from the research I’ve been doing. We see them all the time on dogs but I’ve never heard of one on a Guinea pig.

 

[Free Ranger]

Can I ask how you knew they had a bad UTI that was difficult to shift. Did they sample the urine at all or was it based on the symptoms.

Now, my generalist vet (who is also a piggy keeper) doesn't always test for bacteria before prescribing ABs because she's seen enough UTI to know they're pretty common and enough stones to know the risks of untreated UTI. Pain and inflammation, holding pee in, not getting a proper flow, urine concentrating in the bladder and thus an increased risk of stones and sludge on the back of a UTI. And she feels very sorry for a pig in pain. If I get a new young vet they often want to wait for a proper test, but there's a choice to make. They can have a quick look under a microscope but you don't always see anything. Or you can send a sample off but you have to wait 3-5 days and all the time piggy is hurting. I spose they treat the symptoms and if ABs work we know it was an infection. And if they don't it's either a resistant infection or something not bacterial. But for us, 9 times out of 10 it's been UTI (either with or without a stone or sludge). And the girl that had a massive stone wrangled out of her urethra with forceps was given AB anyway because that did a bit of damage and if she hadn't had one to start with she was at a pretty high risk after!

When they have a bacterial infection and you get antibiotics a couple of things can happen. Usually the antibiotics start to kill the bacteria pretty fast and the body then starts to heal. So if you give the first dose on the morning of day 1 you should see clear improvement of symptoms by the morning of day 2 (24 hours later). But it might take a bit longer (say 36 or 48 hours) for people to notice a real difference -especially if that infection has been rumbling on for a while and you have a lot of damage and inflammation. Our rule has always been that we give it 3 days and if there's no change we go back to the vet. This has happened for us in the past - on the 3rd day of squealing wees and dripping back end I knew it wasn't working. Then we usually get a secondary antibiotic to try instead. You always have to complete the course. Some bacteria just hang around! And of course there is the problem of increasing antibiotic resistance generally (made worse by not completing the course I should add). So we've had really nasty UTIs which vanished almost overnight once we started Baytril and a short 5 day course was all that was needed. Then we've had UTIs like George's (and another little sow in the past) where 3 weeks of Septrin wasn't enough and we had to have another 3 weeks! BUT the symptoms still dropped right off after a day or two of the Septrin starting - so you end up stuffing them full of antibiotics for weeks thinking "why am I bothering?" but the course ends and within 3ish days you're back to square 1 and starting all over again. But we got there in the end!

So if AB clear the symptoms within a few days it was bacterial. And if the symptoms come back a few days after finishing the course (however long you get) there were a few resistant little clinging on and once the AB pressure is removed they just multiply up again.

With George it was a tricky call because he's old and he had a stone which clearly showed up on x-ray. So a short course of Baytril was the first option and actually I persisted for the full 5 days because, although it didn't 'cure' him, what I said to the vet was that his symptoms did improve (following the usual number of days) but only very slightly... say 10-15% which wasn't enough for George but was enough to let us know that it likely was infection on top of the stone. It was such a subtle difference that I might have missed it if I hadn't been watching my beloved like a hawk. But when we switched to Septrin the blood cleared up. This time he started to improve straight off but it was 5 days before the blood tinted pee went away - much longer than usual once an effective AB has been identified. It was a hard ride for him because his gut was affected so badly - my previous little girl had no gut issues at all and was just delighted to be back to normal but for George we had a proper fight to get everything back on track and he must have felt rough as anything because he didn't start to eat properly until a couple of days after we stopped them.

People want to avoid over use of antibiotics - this is absolutely correct. AB resistance is increasing generally - also very true. And guinea pigs can sometimes be badly affected by antibiotics (although usually they're just fine) and this needs managing carefully to make sure the cure isn't worse than the illness. But I'm happy with my vet's approach of treating for UTI first and considering stones second. It's been right 90% of the time. I've had pigs for 10 years - and they've been treating them for longer. Touch wood we've not had to face SIC - it must be a knot of stress constantly waiting to hear the next cry.

I'm so sorry to hear of her hernia following the Op. They do come up on here - sometimes following neutering. Ops on piggies are less common than on larger pets so complications would be reported less. Only one of my pigs has had an opioid painkiller and although it was very effective pain relief she didn't eat anything at all while she was stoned and this lasted several hours. She just stood and rocked. It was pretty awful to see. It was because she'd had a massive fluid bolus to try and pee out a stone/sludge (believe it or not) and it did work - she peed like a tap - but she didn't seem to know where she was. Then later that afternoon she suddenly shook herself and started eating again. We got lucky. One of the other vets uses something different for this procedure - but I can't remember what. But it's not an opioid and it's for that very reason. I hope she can improve and pee out that nasty sludge x

 

[Josie_lg]

Hiya everyone not sure if anyone’s still watching this thread and if they’ll see this to offer anymore advice. Since the last time I posted on this thread she was doing much better. She recovered after around 48 hours from the buprenorphine injection and started to squeak when weeing again bless her. We started her sulfatrim and she really did improve. We had a really good Christmas she was very comfy and very happy for a while. After about 2 weeks of sulfatrim we finally got the results back from the lab showing she had aerococcus viridans (a type of bacteria) obviously the urine was a free catch sample and not sterile. But the vet was still concerned that whether that bacteria was from the urine or the poop she doesn’t want it there. The lab tested which antibiotics can treat that particular bacteria and I think the only one on their list safe for piggies was the doxycycline so after two weeks of sulfatrim she went on the doxy which we gave for 10 days and have just finished this week. I found after coming off the sulfatrim she actually became a bit squeaky again and now today has passed a bit of blood in her wee again. She is still okay happy and eating but I’m noticing pain again. Which is so so frustrating and upsetting after roughly 2-3 weeks of doing really really well. I wonder if there could have been more bacteria they didn’t find which is why the sulfatrim made her more comfy.
She passed some sludge this Monday which is when I noticed her getting a bit more sore again and since then has had some squeaky wees.
It is exhausting i am so worried at the moment! And it’s so hard not properly knowing what’s going on and what to treat. If the PH is off I don’t know how to balance that other than the diet and meds she’s on. But I love her so much and will do whatever I can for her. But just feeling at a loss today after almost £100 of antibiotics she’s sore again. (Doxy was £70!) couldn’t believe it but she’s worth every penny xx

 

[StayGold86]

Would be worth getting another urine test done. If it comes up negative for bacteria, then maybe an xray is needed. She may have cystitis (urinary track inflammation). A lot of people use a product called Feliway Cystease for cystitis. It ligns the bladder walls with a specific type of glucosamine. It made a difference for my pig who has cystitis. Also may be worth looking into Sherwood Pet Health preventative tablets. She may also need Metacam for inflammation and pain.