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New here . Options for treatment or PTS?

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HouseOfPigs22

New Born Pup
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I’ve got a very poorly 3yr old sow. On Thursday afternoon she suddenly became very quiet , stopped eating and drinking and was just sitting staring in her pen. I noticed she’s also rapidly lost a lot of weight.

After checking her over I felt she has a large solid golf ball type lump under her chin (in the base of the bottom of the jaw but not visible to the eye) . Her top teeth are fine, but one of her bottom main teeth has a chip in the top. Length is fine.

BUT she has developed a large gap between the two bottom incisors (big enough for her tongue to poke through); this gap means she can’t pick up hay or nuggets at all.

I took her to the vet who saw the gap and the chip and gave her pain relief. The lump I was told is either an abscess or there’s a small chance it’s a tumour.

We were sent home with Baytril and Loxicom. I’ve to return in a few days if she continues to struggle to eat and they will sedate her and burr her teeth.

I’m syringe feeding her with recovery food and water but she is so fragile and skinny, I’m not sure it will make much difference. She’s very quiet and although interested in food, she can’t eat it (she is eating the recovery food via syringe).

Now the dilemma: I don’t think a tooth burr is going to solve the issue as the main problem is the big gap in her teeth - trimming them won’t close the gap.

The vet did say she may need to have her teeth extracted if burring doesn’t work. But I don’t think she is strong enough to survive a GA. She is half the size of her cage mate and hasn’t eaten solid food or taken water independently in 2 days. I’m giving her lots of cuddles but she just hides in her pen for most of the day. She’s still pooping.

Realistically, what are the options? I love her very much but it feels like I’m prolonging the inevitable.

I’ve had a dental small animal before who needed repeated burring and eventually died during a tooth extraction. I don’t want to do that again.

She’s 3yrs old and weighs 0.68grams; she looks very skinny and is currently being syringe fed and watered.

Would it be kinder to PTS? :(
 
Hello. Welcome to the forum I’m so sorry your piggy is unwell. I have recently gone through something very similar with my piggy Pepper. Have a read of his thread.

Dental? Pepper is off to the vets tomorrow

Your location just says England. If you can, I would 100% take your piggy to the Cat and Rabbit vets in Northampton. It was a two hour drive from my home in Wiltshire but sooo worth it. I can’t praise them enough. Good luck. Keep syringe feeding as this will help keep your piggy strong for any treatment they need.

If you can’t get to Cat and Rabbit then the antibiotic for abscesses is Zithromax. Pepper was on Baytril and it did absolutely nothing.
 
I’m too far out for Northampton sadly. Do you think the gap could be fixed? If not, she’s never going to be able to eat normally without an extraction.
 
I would think that the cause of the gap (the abscess) would have to be fixed first to see if the teeth then go back to their original place. But I’m no expert. What does your vet think? Are there any piggy specialists near you? A lot of vets are not confident operating on piggies.
 
I’m sorry to hear this.

I would agree with weepweeps. I would want to know what the lump is, whether it is the cause of the gap and whether it can be resolved (if an abscess can it be dealt with via surgery and better antibiotics) before making any pts decisions.

i hope her issues can be resolved
 
Personally I would be looking to deal with the lump before doing anything to the teeth. Did the vet offer any checks of it? When I have had lumps on piggies previously my vet has always poked it with a fine needle to see what came out (an abscess is absolutely unmistakable - I have to say that I nearly passed out from the stench of it). Sadly, if it's the lump causing it then a teeth burr etc won't fix anything
 
The vet just felt the lump and did nothing else. I think dealing with the lump first is the best idea.

Does anyone know if she will still be able to eat with such a gap if the abscess is treated?
 
I don’t have any experience of gaps between front teeth. Sorry.
 
There was a piggy on the forum called Little who had both bottom incisors removed and managed to eat on his own very well once he'd figured things out. @Little Ones any advice for this poster? Here's a link to a previous post about piggy Little
Little Ones said:
Are they wanting to remove the final bottom incisor or the top ones?
I had a piggy with no bottom incisors, both were removed and didn’t grow back due to the tooth root being infected by an abscess:
View attachment 173128

Incisor burring can be done consciously and only costs around £20, they will only burr to the gum line behind the teeth, or so that they line up nicely. Since your piggy still has a bottom tooth, they need to be cut precisely with grooves to make chewing easier. Little (my piggy) first off had one remaining bottom tooth so would have to have them burred consciously by a dental specialist in Northampton called Simon.
Little eventually lost his other tooth after a few months which made life a lot easier as it meant any vet at all could burr his teeth. Vets routinely burr rabbit teeth so it’s the same process. Before, we would travel just over 2 hours to have them burred but now we could go to our local vet five minutes away.
The top teeth can really never ever be removed. The tooth roots don’t grow straight like they do for bottom incisors and instead grow all over the place making extraction very difficult. It also requires a different form of anaesthetic which is injecting into the gums which is quite painful.
Once Little had no bottom incisors, he had his top incisors burred every 3 weeks (consciously). He managed beautifully without his bottom incisors.

My advice to you would be to contact Simon from the Cat and Rabbit Clinic, he is the only dental expert in the country along with his wife, Kim. Explain where you live (so you’d have to travel to see them rather than be able to just turn up for a physical consultation), and your situation and ask if you’re able to have a phone consult, or if you’re able to email him. Explain that you’re unable to find someone to burr the incisors consciously and precisely, having the remaining incisor removed would be helpful as then you can have cheaper, conscious incisor burrs at a local vet regularly. Simon will be able to tell you if he thinks it would be ethical and possible. Along with if the tooth would ever grow back.
With Little, his tooth roots were infected and his teeth were removed so that’s why the teeth never grew back. Simon will be able to tell you if this is possible. I know it’s far to travel but he is worth it! I’ve travelled there via train before which took so so long but Simon saved Little’s life. I’m quite confused actually as to why your vets are burring incisors under anaesthetic when it’s fairly easy and common practice in rabbits to burr them consciously, and this is transferable to guinea pigs. I know they must be cutting the tooth off very far down if it took 6 months to grow, but it seems more reasonable to do this conscious and more frequently.

If you’re able to have a safe extraction of the bottom incisor, then from my experience I would do it and then have the top incisors burred as needed (every 3 weeks for us). We paid around £500 for each of Little’s teeth removal, but he also had his abscess marsupialised at the same time. But do not get the top teeth removed, if they agree to do this then I would question how well versed they are in guinea pigs and their dental needs.
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Sometimes the incisors get so long they actually impede chewing but the vet can usually burr them consciously so piggy's back teeth can meet again to chew. It should only take a few minutes if someone holds your piggy firmly. That might be worth a try initially in your situation, although your poor girl will be a bit gummy at first and the teeth grow so fast it's only a short-term 'fix' to see if it helps her get a bit of weight back on... she is very light for a 3 year old. I think she must have been dropping weight for some time - the top teeth would not have been able to meet the bottom ones properly to keep them short. That gap didn't appear overnight. But they get depressed when they can't eat for themselves and then can rapidly go downhill. Feed her up with as much syringe food as she can take. Is she able to chew it? Is she hungry for the syringe or fighting you?

I'm so sorry you are in this situation. I think your girl might have a chance under general anaesthetic as long as she has healthy gut function and a vet who knows what they're doing so she'll be under for as short a time as possible. If they find anything truly horrific while she's under they can pts without bringing her round. I will say that we were warned when we faced a bottom tooth extraction that the bottom jaw is quite delicate and there is a chance that a firmly embedded incisor will cause it to break during the surgery, and sadly there will be no way back from that. So in truth you may lose her either way, but if your vet is confident or you can get in at Cat and Rabbit (and there is a lovely lady nearby who does piggy boarding for recoveries) you might want to give a surgery a go. I'd be leaning towards a few days on baytril/loxicom (hopefully 1.5mg/ml and hopefully twice a day?) syringe feeding, and a short-term incisor burr to get them out of the way for chewing and that will give you a better indication of whether she can cope with something more serious. Because that's a big lump.
 
Thanks for the responses . Free Ranger: She has dropped weight in a matter of days. I noticed earlier in the week that she was feeling lighter but she was fine in herself. It’s only been the last few days where she is noticeably thinner. The lump appeared just as quickly. I’m not sure when the tooth gap appeared but her teeth are ok in length, so I’m not sure why she can’t eat other than the gap means she can’t pick up food.

I’ve spoken to the on call vet tonight and she has said she also does not feel a general anaesthetic would be appropriate given her weight and because she hasn’t been eating herself. A tooth extraction is too risky I think. I think I’ll take her back and ask for the lump to be properly assessed. I never knew the jaw could break easily, it’s another thing to consider .

Is it selfish that I don’t want her to die on the table? :( if it’s going to happen , I want to be with her and to say goodbye peacefully.
 
It's not selfish - we all want the best for our pigs and in truth they don't understand about medicine or why things are done to them. It's just whether she's in any discomfort or pain. The jaw isn't super-delicate (think of the wear and tear it gets!) but it's just that sometimes the troublesome tooth can be very firmly embedded and people are relatively burly to do such dainty work. My girl Zara had her incisor extracted quickly and cleanly but tragically just couldn't recover from the GA afterwards...
Zara stopped eating all of a sudden but when the vet spotted her troublesome bottom incisor and literally shave a couple of mm of it she started again. The tooth had been catching on the top teeth and causing pain so she just stopped eating completely, but making it a little shorter so the other tooth took the brunt made a great improvement. It's just that it didn't last 😔
 
That is my worry , that she may not recover from the anaesthetic. I’ve been here before with a much loved pet and he died before from the anaesthetic too. He was much healthier and stronger than this one. Also, she will need to be referred to a specialist vet to extract, and by the time we are seen, it’s will have been almost a week of her not being able to feed or water independently. I think prolonging it will be more harmful.

I’d be happy to try the teeth burr if I know she won’t need a general anaesthetic and that there’s a good chance she will eat herself again. If she needs repeated visits for burring and/or tooth extraction, I think that is where I will stop :(
 
I've had dental pigs in the past, but not this particular problem. I'm concerned that the vet isn't attempting to treat the actual abscess... dealing with the ends of the teeth is not going to accomplish much if there is an underlying root infection/abscess. Guinea pig abscesses don't go away on their own, they typically need to be opened up, drained, and then treated with strong antibiotics and cleaned to keep any pus from building back up. After that you could potentially assess the teeth (and some of that distance may resolve without the underlying swelling/pressure on the root.) ((HUGS)) and I'm so sorry you are dealing with this, rodent dental issues are really difficult and I know it's a lot to try to sort out.
 
I totally agree with @Freela . It’s what Pepper had to have done. His lump was 4cm and was full of 20ml of pus. I will add that he also lost a lot of weight quickly and didn’t want to eat for about 5 weeks after. He could eat he just lost his appetite because of the antibiotics. It was very hard syringe feeding 5 times a day for that long.

I have lost another piggy to a bladder stone recently. He reacted badly to the anaesthetic. You just don’t know how they will react. Good luck with whatever decision you make. Either way you are making it with her best interest at the heart of it ❤️
 
I’ve come up with a rough plan of what to do and I’m wondering if this is a good balance of doing what’s best for her but also giving her a chance. At the moment , I don’t feel she has any quality of life , she sits in her pen all day and hides. She’s not gained any weight in spite of syringe feeding every few hours.

1) I’m returning to the vet tomorrow to ask them to properly assess the lump. If it’s more likely to be a tumour , I’ll stop all treatment.

2) If it’s an abscess, I’ll ask if realistically it can be resolved along with her tooth issue without a GA - if not, I’ll stop all treatment.

3) If it can be resolved with sedation and a tooth burr will be a permanent fix, I’ll persevere and continue treatment.

Does this sound fair?

I’ve given it a lot of thought and having been through dentals with a much healthier one but the end outcome was death , I’m not prepared to put her or us through it repeatedly. I do also have to consider the cost implications of repeated visits too .
 
I’m really sorry you are in this position. It’s really hard. I’ve been there. Your vet will have to marsupialise the wound. Ie stitch it open for you to flush it several times a day. And you will have to continue with the syringe feeds too. It’s wasn’t an easy recovery for my Pepper. I wish you good luck with whatever decision you make.
 
I’m fine to flush out an abscess and keep it clean but it’s more her teeth I’m concerned about. She can’t pick up hay and doesn’t seem to be able to chew it but her teeth are ok in length. She isn’t really eating or drinking. She managed to nibble some cucumber but then gave up. She just sits in her pen all day with the occasional wander to the hay tray but she doesn’t eat it.

She has dog loxicom once per day and baytril twice per day. I’m syringe feeding recovery food and water every few hours. I can’t see how a burr is going to fix the gap; I feel she will need a removal under GA which at this point , I’m not willing to do :( .
 
See what the vet says tomorrow. They may come up with a plan. Ask you vet if you can give the loxicom twice a day too. Pigs can tolerate high doses of pain medication as their metabolism is so fast. Good luck.
 
After a short period of looking brighter , she’s back to her quiet self . But now she’s also continually ‘nodding’ her head in little bursts . I’m wondering if something neurological may be going on :(
 
We can’t really tell you to do it as only a vet can prescribe medication. But I have had two piggies recently on dog loxicom twice a day. 👍🏻
 
I've also had piggies on dog Loxicom twice daily for quite some time. Best of luck, hope your piggy picks up soon, 😢
 
I agree with others who have said you really need to ask the vet about the pain relief. Once a day just doesn't work for piggies due to their fast metabolism.
I would also be very concerned that they didin't step in immediately and start treating the lump.
If it is an abscess then emptying it could remove the pressure on her jaw and the teeth may then move back in to a better position.
Also once the pressure is removed she may be far more willing to pick food up on her own.
Baytril is not the best choice for treating and abscess, so this is something further to look in to.

At this point I would question how experienced you vet is with piggies.
The fact that they haven't really done anything useful up until now for a piggy who is clearly very ill is a worry.
Would it be possible for you to get to a vet on the recommended list with her?
 
Thanks for the advice I’ve received. Sadly, I’ve made the decision that it’s going to be kinder to let her go. She hasn’t eaten in days now (other than what I’m feeding her), she can’t pick up food to eat because of her tooth gap so quickly loses interest. She hasn’t gained much weight (now 0.69grams). One vet said her size won’t affect her getting through the GA , but another vet said she doesn’t think a GA would be appropriate with how small she is.

She spends all day hiding in her hut. I did increase the pain meds yesterday but they’ve made little difference. Her poops are tiny and very dry. I can’t see her coping well with continuing dental treatments.

I think it’s the right decision for her but not want I want to make.

I have 3 other pigs; one is her cage mate (boar) and is twice the size of her. I now need to decide what to do with him (the others are a bonded boar and sow so he can’t live with them. I don’t want to get another piggy , but I think I may invest in a side by side c&c setup. Would this be ok?
 
HouseOfPigs22 said:
Thanks for the advice I’ve received. Sadly, I’ve made the decision that it’s going to be kinder to let her go. She hasn’t eaten in days now (other than what I’m feeding her), she can’t pick up food to eat because of her tooth gap so quickly loses interest. She hasn’t gained much weight (now 0.69grams). One vet said her size won’t affect her getting through the GA , but another vet said she doesn’t think a GA would be appropriate with how small she is.

She spends all day hiding in her hut. I did increase the pain meds yesterday but they’ve made little difference. Her poops are tiny and very dry. I can’t see her coping well with continuing dental treatments.

I think it’s the right decision for her but not want I want to make.

I have 3 other pigs; one is her cage mate (boar) and is twice the size of her. I now need to decide what to do with him (the others are a bonded boar and sow so he can’t live with them. I don’t want to get another piggy , but I think I may invest in a side by side c&c setup. Would this be ok?
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I'm sorry to hear this. It’s the hardest decision to make. Sending you lots of thoughts.

Yes side by side with others is necessary for a single piggy.
 
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