Mystery hair loss near back legs during persistent UTI

[lilpumpkamo]

Hello all,

I am stumped so I wanted to crowdsource some info from other guinea pig owners. This is mostly a TLDR I wrote a lot under the images on Imgur.

Here is her history:

Age: I have had Kaylor for 3.5 years, unsure of her age as I rescued her but let's guess about 5 years old now.

Previous illness/injury: Cloudy eye (cleared up)

First Issue (broken tooth) [July 2021-Present]her bottom tooth fell out and I took her to the vet who said it should grow back and everything looked good. The tooth did not grow back but she continued life as normal except I had to break her Oxbow Vitamin C tab in half for her.

Second Issue (UTI) [November 2021-Present] In mid November she started peeing deep red and squeaking when she would pee. I also saw some weight loss from low 1100s to high 900s (grams). She was treated after a vet visit diagnosed a UTI (no stones) and she improved. However, symptoms came back last week and are not going away with meds as they did before. Unrelated to Kaylor but including it to give the full picture, I had a guinea pig suddenly die on 12-9, she was totally normal the day before and I woke up to her "asleep" in the cage in the morning. I was shocked. While was no the image of health (She had persistent URIs as a result of a heart problem and weighed about 3 pounds), she had no symptoms of a URI or any other illness leading up to her death. Now Kaylor is decreasing in weight (her all time low of 944 was on 12-9 when Lily died), she has been fluctuating in the mid/high 900s. Her last all time low was 990 about a year ago when another guinea pig of mine died, but other than that she has always been above 1 kg. Today when she was outstretching her back legs I noticed the extent of the hair loss. Is this due to the meds? Is she pulling her hair out due to the pain? Maybe a result of too many Oxbow tablets? She has been picky about the Vitamin C ones so I have been giving her the Multi-Vitamin ones. She also won't eat the Urinary Support ones.

Am I doing something wrong? Is there something I could be over looking? She is eating/drinking as she normally does for the most part. Please help. Any advice/input/comments are appreciated. I cannot handle losing another pig so soon.

 

[Siikibam]

Hi and welcome. Firstly I’m sorry for your loss. It’s tough when you lose a piggy but know you did all you could. Sometimes the call of the bridge is too strong. And sometimes, no matter what you try or do, it’s their time.

With regards to your Kaylor, what has the vet said with regards to the hair loss? It would be easier if you could post the photos here rather than put in links. If you look below the text box where you type, there is an ‘Attach files’ button. It should work on computers, tablets and phones.

As she is not eating enough hay (evidenced by the fact she’s losing weight), you will need to step in and syringe feed her regularly. You are aiming for 60ml in a 24 hour period. Your goal is to help her stabilise/maintain her weight.

I’ll post some links for you to read below while you wait for a more experienced member to respond. However, I would stop the multivitamins that you are giving her. The issue is that too many can also cause issues. If she eats pellets then they are fortified and help maintain the ‘balance’ of nutrients they need - along with hay and a variety of veg.

How long has she been on the meds for the UTI this time? And do you think she could be barbering herself hence the contribution to the hair loss? I really hope she’s in the mend soon. You’re doing a fab job.

Not Eating, Weight Loss And The Importance Of Syringe Feeding Fibre
Complete Syringe Feeding Guide
Barbering ( Eating Hair)
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)

 

[Free Ranger]

My George is 5 and nibbles at his back legs around the knees and groin because he has arthritis. He is on daily meloxicam for this which has reduced the nibbling and allowed him to move about much more freely. He also has a nice heat-pad and a snuggle tunnel which he is very fond of. The vet spotted what was happening when she examined his lower incisors... there is a little gum pocket at the bottom which can be drawn down and she found hair in here. Arthritis is common in the older piggy. Barbering can be a sign of physical pain or discomfort but also of stress.

We don't do vit tablets. The pigs get pellets, bell peppers and lots of grass/hay and that's fine.

I'm sorry for the loss of Lily. Sometimes they can have things like a heart attack without warning and there's nothing anyone can do. I once found a lovely girl with hay still sticking out of her mouth: she had dropped dead mid-chew! It was probably the quickest and probably 'best' death I've had

There is something piggies can get called Interstitial Cystitis - this is pain when peeing but no infection. It can be triggered by certain foods but these can be different for each pig. BUT it can be triggered by stress too. The porphyrin pee that looks like blood is unnerving. I haven't any experience with IC - I don't know if it can suddenly appear in an older girl who has not had it before. Search the site and you'll find quite a few threads about it. something called cystease can help - it's for cats who also get stress induced cystitis. But I can tell you that I had a girl with UTI who had antibiotics for nearly 3 weeks and then within a week or two of finishing the course her symptoms came back and we had to have another long course and the vet didn't seem at all surprised. This was definitely infection in our case though... each time the antibiotics were prescribed with pain killers and each time they took about about 2 days to improve the symptoms as they killed off the bacteria... then it was just a matter of completing the course.

@Wiebke I think the porphyrin pees (described in one of the links above) might be something you have seen?

 

[Merab]

Welcome to the forum.
I can’t add advice but wanted to offer you my support

 

[lilpumpkamo]

Hello,

Thank you so much for the reply. I didn't want to write an essay here so that is why I did the links but I understand seeing images here would be way easier.

She started the second round of Enrofloxacin and Metacam on Thursday 12/09/2021. Last time she started the meds 11/12/2021 and was feeling better in terms of going back to eating and no red urine by 11/15/2021. It has been 4 days and there hasn't been any improvement, still red urine, lots of squeaking while peeing, and now this hair loss.

She has no interest in critical care but she has been eating hay and pellets, although less than usual. The two vets I rotate between are not available until later this week to see her so I haven't discussed the hair loss with them yet. Her X-ray came back clean though so I don't think it's cysts or anything of that nature.

 

[lilpumpkamo]

My George is 5 and nibbles at his back legs around the knees and groin because he has arthritis. He is on daily meloxicam for this which has reduced the nibbling and allowed him to move about much more freely. He also has a nice heat-pad and a snuggle tunnel which he is very fond of. The vet spotted what was happening when she examined his lower incisors... there is a little gum pocket at the bottom which can be drawn down and she found hair in here

Did the hair in the teeth look similar to this? She has had hair in her bottom broken tooth for several months but the hair loss only began to look as excessive as it does recently with the UTI.

 

[BossHogg]

Hiya, I'm afraid I've had to remove your hyperlinks, we can't be too careful with unknown links. Sorry if you don't agree with it but I have to think of the safety of the forum.

 

[lilpumpkamo]

I called the vet and while the small animal specialist is not available to read the X-rays, they still sent them to me. All I know from my visit a month ago is that there were no stones. Does anything look amiss? I looked online for a "normal" female guinea pig X-ray and nothing seemed out of place to me.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

Please have your piggy checked for arthritis in the legs; the self-barbering pattern is typical for that. The pain can impact on the appetite and the food intake.

The root of the incisors is way back in front of the molars. They are the longest teeth guinea pigs have; about 4 cm long. Depening on where and how the break has happened, a tooth may not grow back. A guinea pig can generally manage with one incisor missing.

If a UTI recurs regularly, then please see your vet over a sterile (i.e. non-bacterial) interstitial cystitis (IC) or recurring bladder infection. Sterile IC is not much known outside vet circles that see lots of guinea pigs but it has become increasingly common over the last decade. The symptoms are very similar. Phorphyrine coloured deep red pees are typical for the onset of a new flare.
Key is glucosamine since sterile cystitis seems to especially affect the natural glucosamine lining of the urinary tract that prevents highly corrosive urine from coming into very painful contact with raw tissue.
Please accept that we cannot diagnose, we can only show you possible avenues to pursue with your vet.
Here is more information on sterile IC:
Links - Interstitial Cystitis - Guinea Lynx Records
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets (see chapter on special diets)

If you have been giving high amounts of vitamin C for a longer time, then you cannot just stop. The body accustoms to those high levels; when they drop suddenly, your piggy may react with scurvy symptoms even when the actual vitamin C level is still well above normal.

PS: We are independent of social media. Please respect that we take the security of our members seriously, especially when you link to lots of places.

 

[lilpumpkamo]

Hi

Please have your piggy checked for arthritis in the legs; the self-barbering pattern is typical for that. The pain can impact on the appetite and the food intake.

The root of the incisors is way back in front of the molars. They are the longest teeth guinea pigs have; about 4 cm long. Depening on where and how the break has happened, a tooth may not grow back. A guinea pig can generally manage with one incisor missing.

If a UTI recurs regularly, then please see your vet over a sterile (i.e. non-bacterial) interstitial cystitis (IC) or recurring bladder infection. Sterile IC is not much known outside vet circles that see lots of guinea pigs but it has become increasingly common over the last decade. The symptoms are very similar. Phorphyrine coloured deep red pees are typical for the onset of a new flare.
Key is glucosamine since sterile cystitis seems to especially affect the natural glucosamine lining of the urinary tract that prevents highly corrosive urine from coming into very painful contact with raw tissue.
Please accept that we cannot diagnose, we can only show you possible avenues to pursue with your vet.
Here is more information on sterile IC:
Links - Interstitial Cystitis - Guinea Lynx Records
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets (see chapter on special diets)

If you have been giving high amounts of vitamin C for a longer time, then you cannot just stop. The body accustoms to those high levels; when they drop suddenly, your piggy may react with scurvy symptoms even when the actual vitamin C level is still well above normal.

PS: We are independent of social media. Please respect that we take the security of our members seriously, especially when you link to lots of places.

No worries about the link removal, I was trying to have the a very brief version available with the bulk of the text off the page for people who wanted to read more in-depth, I did not take security in to account- that totally makes sense.

I really appreciate all of the information. I think something like arthritis could make sense as she has been stretching her hind legs more than usual and taking what looks like exaggerated steps when walking at times.

 

[Free Ranger]

Hi again @lilpumpkamo I hope that this all makes sense. The different avenues of bacterial UTI, sterile IC (no infection) and arthritis can all be tackled and are worthy of discussion with your vet. The anti-inflammatory George has for his arthritis is 1.5mg/ml 'metacam' and we've tried different doses (either once or twice a day) but settled on 0.8ml once per day... he is 1.4 kilo and that is what suits him at the moment. He still gets a bit of hair in his teeth but he moves around well. It did take us a few weeks to work out the best dose for him. It might well be something different for your old lady. I would certainly recommend a snuggle tunnel!

Like Wiebke said sterile IC is something that is helped a lot by glucosamine so have a search around the forum and see what threads pop up and how other people have managed it and how that compares to your situation. You could have a look at feline cystease (Feliway in this country) as something that might help your girl... remember this is something that needs a week or two to start making a difference as it rebuilds the bladder lining. IC seems to be seen as 'flare-ups' followed by weeks or months of no symptoms so while it is hard to see them in pain it can be helped.

Let us know how you get on! x

 

[lilpumpkamo]

WOW! Today is the first day I have had hope for Kaylor's recover. We started shi lin tong on Tuesday afternoon along with the metacam and antibiotics. Didn't see an improvement and Wednesday I started to consider Kaylor might need to be put to sleep as she was struggling to walk and still losing weight. But yesterday afternoon we starter Cystease and today she is running around the cage, jumping up to chew on the bars to beg for treats, and finally gaining weight. She went from a low of 899 to 933 (still low as her presickness weight was 1100). I am so happy I could cry. We still have some ways to go as the red urine and speaking during peeing is still around but it is less red, less squeaking, and a guinea pig full of much more life.

 

[Free Ranger]

What good news for Kaylor and you! Even if there are ups and downs until this settles she'll make the most of these good days and hopefully gain her weight back. Well done!

 

[lilpumpkamo]

Hello all,

Just wanted to update you. Kaylor is currently up a bit in weight. She is around 950 and hasn't shown any signs of discomfort in a while. For those who have dealt with IC before, is that something I will have to medicate her for the rest of her life? We stopped the cytease and metacam for a day and she started squeaking when peeing again although it was not red like it used to be. That nught we gave her the cytease/shi lin tong/critical care mix I made and metacam and she hasn't had issues since with twice daily treatment.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

Hi, glad your sow is better than she was last month.

One of the medical experts will be along soon hopefully to explain everything, but the basic answer to your question about IC is that it is a condition which is chronic and doesn't resolve quickly. Piggies with IC need to be given glucosamine (cystease etc) regularly, possibly for the rest of their lives. Sometimes it eventually resolves enough for the cystease to only be needed during a 'flare-up' . If she starts squeaking when peeing when you stop giving cystease, then it is too soon to stop. Hope she continues to improve and puts on some more weight

PS What is shi lin tong?

 

[lilpumpkamo]

Hi, glad your sow is better than she was last month.

One of the medical experts will be along soon hopefully to explain everything, but the basic answer to your question about IC is that it is a condition which is chronic and doesn't resolve quickly. Piggies with IC need to be given glucosamine (cystease etc) regularly, possibly for the rest of their lives. Sometimes it eventually resolves enough for the cystease to only be needed during a 'flare-up' . If she starts squeaking when peeing when you stop giving cystease, then it is too soon to stop. Hope she continues to improve and puts on some more weight

PS What is shi lin tong?

Shi lin tong was recommended to me by someone whose guinea pig suffered from IC and a lot owners said it was very helpful with UTIs. It is more used as a preventative than a treatment from what I have read. It is more helpful for prevention of stone formation I believe than IC but since vets were closed for Christmas break and I thought she was going to pass, I tried anything I could get my hands on. I think the real hero was the cystease though.

 

[Qualcast&Flymo]

The medical experts here would probably be wary of herbal remedies, as they aren't generally scientifically tested and might contain substances that are harmful to guineas. It's great that you are able to get hold of cystease and that it seems to be helping already

 

[lilpumpkamo]

Hello again!

I wanted to ask for some input before my next vet visit. I would like to be as informed as possible so Kaylor can get the long term help she needs.

An update, her weight has been increasing, she has been as high as 970 and has been averaging in the 945-955 range although some days it can go down, I guess it depends on the time of day because my other pigs will have similar decreases those days. Overall, I would say she is doing well. She is eating a ton, drinking, and getting into her usual spats with Pumpkin. She has the occasional crying when peeing/pooping, but it is much, much less than before. The only new development on that front is that her poop appears to be almost coated in liquid? The are the normal, firm poop but wet (and not like a squishy wet, like a it's raining wet). Not sure if she is just peeing while she poops or what.

Right now, she is far less miserable than she was before. She is getting Oxbow joint support tablets (1/2 am 1/2 pm) and about maybe about 1/4 a pill of cystease daily? I dissolve it in water and give her 2 mL daily but I can use the 1 pill for about 4 days.

I wanted to ask your thoughts on her hind legs. It is where she was previously barbering/hair pulling. I have noticed she really stretches the legs when she walks and that has been a concern of mine. Some times when she leaves her igloo she walks forward with her front legs and doesn't move her back legs until they are all the way stretched out and not supporting any weight. They she will pull them under her and work normally, albeit slow.

I wanted to ask if the leg issue is common with IC or perhaps it could be arthritis? I have gotten all of my pigs from rescues so I don't know their ages but it could have been anywhere between 1-2 years. I have had her for 3 years and 7 months so being safe let's assume she is 5. I have attached the best attempts I could get of the stretch thing she does and her slow walking. I want to bring everything I can to the vet when I see her so please let me know if you have had similar issues with your pigs.

Thank you!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1485709398701920262

https://twitter.com/x/status/1485710274904694796

 

[lilpumpkamo]

accidentally posted twice sorry

 

[lilpumpkamo]

Hi again @lilpumpkamo I hope that this all makes sense. The different avenues of bacterial UTI, sterile IC (no infection) and arthritis can all be tackled and are worthy of discussion with your vet. The anti-inflammatory George has for his arthritis is 1.5mg/ml 'metacam' and we've tried different doses (either once or twice a day) but settled on 0.8ml once per day... he is 1.4 kilo and that is what suits him at the moment. He still gets a bit of hair in his teeth but he moves around well. It did take us a few weeks to work out the best dose for him. It might well be something different for your old lady. I would certainly recommend a snuggle tunnel!

Like Wiebke said sterile IC is something that is helped a lot by glucosamine so have a search around the forum and see what threads pop up and how other people have managed it and how that compares to your situation. You could have a look at feline cystease (Feliway in this country) as something that might help your girl... remember this is something that needs a week or two to start making a difference as it rebuilds the bladder lining. IC seems to be seen as 'flare-ups' followed by weeks or months of no symptoms so while it is hard to see them in pain it can be helped.

Let us know how you get on! x

@Wiebke @Free Ranger you both had mentioned arthritis previously. do the videos I posted appear to reflect your experiences with arthritis in guinea pigs?

 

[Siikibam]

I have no experience with IC but I don’t know that it would cause a piggy to walk like that. Her gait may be a sign of discomfort or pain.

When do you have her booked in to see the vet? Are they experienced in treating guinea pigs? Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[Wiebke]

@Wiebke @Free Ranger you both had mentioned arthritis previously. do the videos I posted appear to reflect your experiences with arthritis in guinea pigs?

Hi

Unfortunately, I can't diagnose arthritis like this. It is very much a sliding scale depending on where it is and how severe it is. Keep in mind that it could be connected to something in urinary tract (bladder stone or trauma?)

I would however stringly recommend to have her vet checked if you have concerns.

 

[lilpumpkamo]

I have no experience with IC but I don’t know that it would cause a piggy to walk like that. Her gait may be a sign of discomfort or pain.

When do you have her booked in to see the vet? Are they experienced in treating guinea pigs? Hope you get to the bottom of it.

I have her in at the vet 3 days from now. I think the vet is great. She is the best exotic vet out of the 5 I have seen in the past 4ish years of owning guinea pigs.
She even took the time to call me after I emailed the office about everyone's thoughts here about IC when at the time of the visit the vet was thinking it was a UTI. I like to go in to my appointments with as much information as possible so that's why I posted here. This is my first time owning guinea pigs as an adult (I had one as a child but he never went to the vet) and my first time being around guinea pigs who are older so I am less experienced in how guinea pigs change with age. I wasn't sure if the slow walking is common in older pigs or is a symptom of the IC or a sign of arthritis. It is worth noting that she doesn't always walk like this. I stood by the cage for an hour waiting to get it on video. It is usually when she is getting up from laying around for a bit that she does that stretch type of walk but it has been something I have been noticing so I wanted to mention it on Thursday when she goes for the check up on her IC.

 

[Free Ranger]

Hi @lilpumpkamo and I'm so glad she's doing better. IC I have no experience with personally but I can't recall seeing anything on the forum about walking like this being related. My George doesn't have any obvious problems walking - he'd just stopped moving about so much and was being checked over for his impaction when they found stiffness and the hairy gum pocket. There is another thread currently active that might be useful to you about a little sow who seems to have suddenly developed arthritis. Lottie is 5 and her owner has posted some pics and videos of her laying in a sprawled position with back legs out and then improving with treatments... these are ongoing but Lottie is doing pretty well so don't be too sad when you read the original post as she's improving!
5 year old sow diagnosed with crippling arthritis, is there any hope?

Piggies never show their paces properly at the vet so if you can take along your videos of how she is moving around it will give your vet a good idea. With George they carefully felt his legs and bent them to and fro to see how stiff they were. This might well cause Kaylor some discomfort so be brave and take her a treat along for after! Let us know what your vet says x

PS. I made a mistake with my earlier post - I noticed today. I said George was on 0.8ml of 1.5mg/ml metacam but I forgot we had changed syringes so the 8 measurement wasn't ml it was 'kg' (it's the dose for an 8 kilo dog I think!) which is actually roughly 0.5ml. Just wanted to correct myself.

 

[lilpumpkamo]

hello all,

another update for anyone who has been following this. we were at the vet less than 2 days ago. the vet prescribed Kaylor more metacam (0.2 mL twice a day) but said we could increase the amount or change to a stronger drug if the pain continues. Kaylor does not have arthritis. when checking her legs Kaylor was not in any pain. it appears walking aggravates the pain from her bladder which also can explain the hair pulling in the back leg region. Kaylor's weight dipped below 900g for the first time in a month. I am back to round the clock critical care feeding. while feeding her today she started squeaking in pain while peeing, which is what she has been doing so that itself is unusual, but I saw this on the towel afterwards. so the saga continues and becomes more complicated assuming this is a bladder stone and some sludge residue. I will call the vet on Monday to discuss further. We did an x-ray last time she was in in Nov/Dec but didn't do one this past Thursday. I'm guessing antibiotics will help?

 

[Free Ranger]

Aah poor girl - that looks pretty big! I'm assuming it feels hard and rough like a stone and not soft and squishy?
It's good that the vet has been able to rule out arthritis at least. It's on less thing to worry about x

 

[lilpumpkamo]

Aah poor girl - that looks pretty big! I'm assuming it feels hard and rough like a stone and not soft and squishy?
It's good that the vet has been able to rule out arthritis at least. It's on less thing to worry about x

It was kind of in between? I've never seen a stone before so not sure what they feel like. It was hard enough to not break apart when squeezed but still had some give. It felt more like hard rubber like a bouncy ball or pink eraser.

 

[Free Ranger]

That is weird - I think I'd save it to show the vet. Our past stones have been... well, stone-y I suppose, but whatever this is it's certainly come out of somewhere!

(I was looking at my girls tonight - unusually snuggled together under one roof. Then I thought about how fluffy Louise has lost a little weight over the last month... everyone has lost a little bit actually, but she's lost enough to make me pause. And after her nail trim today her front legs ran off but the back ones followed with a sort of bunny hop. Hmmm. We might be visiting our vet next week for a check... )

 

[lilpumpkamo]

That is weird - I think I'd save it to show the vet. Our past stones have been... well, stone-y I suppose, but whatever this is it's certainly come out of somewhere!

(I was looking at my girls tonight - unusually snuggled together under one roof. Then I thought about how fluffy Louise has lost a little weight over the last month... everyone has lost a little bit actually, but she's lost enough to make me pause. And after her nail trim today her front legs ran off but the back ones followed with a sort of bunny hop. Hmmm. We might be visiting our vet next week for a check... )

It feels stone like now that it has dried I suppose. But right after it wasn't as hard.

I hope Louise is OK! It is funny how some pigs being cuddly sets off alarm bells. My guinea pig, Pumpkin, we lovingly call the omen of death because she is very clingy to our sick pigs. We keep track of weight and check on them pretty frequently but as we all know, guinea pigs are good at hiding illness...so if we see Pumpkin hanging around someone a little too much, it is a red flag. She will lay by them all night long despite her usual active demeanor.

this was last night just six hours before Kaylor passed the stone so I imagine she was struggling.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1487563245066104832

 

[Free Ranger]

Aah Pumpkin, both kind and useful!
Louise seems OK in herself and I was watching her pee today - no flinching or squealing - no dripping round the bum end. Eating with the others etc. A little bit stiff when she moves perhaps... maybe I'm imagining things?! I'll see where Flora settles tonight. Flora is not the maternal type. She's a piggy ninja: muscular and nimble, younger than the others and very self contained, so to see her snuggling Louise and 'standing guard' was unusual.
Your piggy cam is very good!