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Lethargic or worse? Suggestions please.

AbbieMiddleton

AbbieMiddleton

Junior Guinea Pig
Joined
Aug 5, 2016
Messages
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Location
Hucknall, Nottingham.
Good afternoon,

I've been struggling with my eldest girl (Bumble, nearly 6y) for the last week. I'm extremely sleep deprived so please excuse any obvious errors.

She stopped eating a couple of days ago. Before that her appetite was in decline, she was losing roughly 10g a day in weight and a vet visit discovered a lump. The vet declined charging us for the consultation because he was nervous in his diagnosis but provided us with Critical Care and encouraged us to syringe feed until we could see a specialist; which we had already struggled to get an appointment with.

We kept her going for 3 days until seeing an exotics specialist and he drained a large ovarian cyst during the examination but discovered a second lump. This second lump is more suspicious and we're booked in for a scan on Monday. Again though, we've been sent home with instructions to syringe feed.

While two days ago she could nibble some parsley, maybe eat four pellets or so and still trot around her cage, now she just sits there. She can barely walk without almost falling over and syringe feeding is starting to feel impossible. She's so, incredibly frail and weak. I'm terrified the struggle of feeding her is making her worse. She still drinks water if I hold the bottle to her lips, she still tries to groom herself but almost falls over, she still attempted to groom her boar and when you offer her something to eat she frantically examines it before struggling to turn away from me in an attempt to avoid the snack but she seems so interested and animated when examining anything you hold out to her; she just moves her head and sniffs it entirely, takes the occasional pretend bite like she's tasting it?

She's weeing fine but passing white mucous and very, very, very tiny clumps of poop (extremely rarely) and I'm starting to feel like I'm failing with the feeds. I'm attempting 5ml to 10ml every 2 or 3 hours because she simply refuses to have it and I'm terrified. Her breathing is so shallow I keep thinking she's passed but when I'm trying to feed her, she gets really energetic and worked up.

I don't know how to proceed. She's just been to see another vet who says she's definitely lethargic but she's not certain if it's recoverable or not, so she's coming home again with Metacam and more syringe feeding.

All suggestions welcome. I'm just so exhausted I can barely think.
 
You must be so exhausted. I can see that you are really trying to do your best. 6 is a wonderful age for a piggy. And shows just how much fantastic care you have given her throughout her life. Sometimes things go wrong that can’t be fixed. It sounds to me like she has something going on inside her. I think all you can do is carry on until the scan on Monday. Then you will be a better position to make any decisions on her future care. Please try to get some sleep. Sending you a big hug. You’re doing a great job. ❤️
 
It sounds like you are doing a wonderful job for your Piggy and that your piggy is lucky to have you as an owner. I'm so sorry that you're dealing with all of this. I'm sure you will continue to make the best decisions that you can for you and your Piggy. Sending hugs.
 
weepweeps said:
You must be so exhausted. I can see that you are really trying to do your best. 6 is a wonderful age for a piggy. And shows just how much fantastic care you have given her throughout her life. Sometimes things go wrong that can’t be fixed. It sounds to me like she has something going on inside her. I think all you can do is carry on until the scan on Monday. Then you will be a better position to make any decisions on her future care. Please try to get some sleep. Sending you a big hug. You’re doing a great job. ❤️
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Thank you for your kind words. I just feel like I'm failing and that if I could just get enough food into her that she'll recover but she's lost so much muscle mass. She only lost 15g overnight but she's emptied her bladder etc since then, so I'm sure it'll be much worse if she survives until tomorrow or Monday.

I lost her sister last year in almost identical circumstances and watching it happen all over again is worse somehow.

I don't know when to safely sleep, eat or do anything. I'm terrified that if I don't try and feed her a minimum of 5ml every 2 hours, I'll be wholly responsible for her death if her stomach shuts down further.
 
Hope4gem said:
It sounds like you are doing a wonderful job for your Piggy and that your piggy is lucky to have you as an owner. I'm so sorry that you're dealing with all of this. I'm sure you will continue to make the best decisions that you can for you and your Piggy. Sending hugs.
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Thank you. I just wish I knew what any of the right decisions were and how to properly apply them.
 
It’s not your fault. You can only do your best. Sometimes it’s not enough. Unfortunately we can’t save them from everything. Take care. I hope she makes it for her scan on Monday so you will have all the information you need to make any decisions.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Good afternoon,

I've been struggling with my eldest girl (Bumble, nearly 6y) for the last week. I'm extremely sleep deprived so please excuse any obvious errors.

She stopped eating a couple of days ago. Before that her appetite was in decline, she was losing roughly 10g a day in weight and a vet visit discovered a lump. The vet declined charging us for the consultation because he was nervous in his diagnosis but provided us with Critical Care and encouraged us to syringe feed until we could see a specialist; which we had already struggled to get an appointment with.

We kept her going for 3 days until seeing an exotics specialist and he drained a large ovarian cyst during the examination but discovered a second lump. This second lump is more suspicious and we're booked in for a scan on Monday. Again though, we've been sent home with instructions to syringe feed.

While two days ago she could nibble some parsley, maybe eat four pellets or so and still trot around her cage, now she just sits there. She can barely walk without almost falling over and syringe feeding is starting to feel impossible. She's so, incredibly frail and weak. I'm terrified the struggle of feeding her is making her worse. She still drinks water if I hold the bottle to her lips, she still tries to groom herself but almost falls over, she still attempted to groom her boar and when you offer her something to eat she frantically examines it before struggling to turn away from me in an attempt to avoid the snack but she seems so interested and animated when examining anything you hold out to her; she just moves her head and sniffs it entirely, takes the occasional pretend bite like she's tasting it?

She's weeing fine but passing white mucous and very, very, very tiny clumps of poop (extremely rarely) and I'm starting to feel like I'm failing with the feeds. I'm attempting 5ml to 10ml every 2 or 3 hours because she simply refuses to have it and I'm terrified. Her breathing is so shallow I keep thinking she's passed but when I'm trying to feed her, she gets really energetic and worked up.

I don't know how to proceed. She's just been to see another vet who says she's definitely lethargic but she's not certain if it's recoverable or not, so she's coming home again with Metacam and more syringe feeding.

All suggestions welcome. I'm just so exhausted I can barely think.
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BIG HUGS

I am very sorry. Unfortunately, it sounds rather like her body may have started to close down. It is always extremely gutting when that happens and you are losing a desperate battle. But it is in no way because you have failed in your care, just that you are up against a force (nature) that is stronger than you. Because of their big personalities we tend to forget that piggies are small animals with a much faster metabolism, which is very much against them in this kind of situation. :(

You may find the information in these guide, especially the second one very helpful:
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Anway, I have been there often enough myself to fully understand just how exhausting and gut wrenching this all is. Be kind to yourself. :(
 
Wiebke said:
BIG HUGS

I am very sorry. Unfortunately, it sounds rather like her body may have started to close down. It is always extremely gutting when that happens and you are losing a desperate battle. But it is in no way because you have failed in your care, just that you are up against a force (nature) that is stronger than you. Because of their big personalities we tend to forget that piggies are small animals with a much faster metabolism, which is very much against them in this kind of situation. :(

You may find the information in these guide, especially the second one very helpful:
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Anway, I have been there often enough myself to fully understand just how exhausting and gut wrenching this all is. Be kind to yourself. :(
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Thank you, I really appreciate your understanding and empathy. I'm still syringe feeding but she's so tired and delicate. She's released quite a lot of gas and has started producing some borderline normal poop but there's been no change in her lethargy. She's so wobbly and keeps looking up at me with her head bobbing gently from the strain and my heart is breaking. I keep hoping for a miracle but I'm not optimistic. Yesterday she produced no poo at all except a large string of malformed clumps, so at least in her final days I've settled her little tummy. She still fights against feeding but is chewing everything I feed her and not just letting it fall from her mouth and she did have some mushed up cucumber a short while ago that I'd mashed up for her, but nothing more.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Thank you, I really appreciate your understanding and empathy. I'm still syringe feeding but she's so tired and delicate. She's released quite a lot of gas and has started producing some borderline normal poop but there's been no change in her lethargy. She's so wobbly and keeps looking up at me with her head bobbing gently from the strain and my heart is breaking. I keep hoping for a miracle but I'm not optimistic. Yesterday she produced no poo at all except a large string of malformed clumps, so at least in her final days I've settled her little tummy. She still fights against feeding but is chewing everything I feed her and not just letting it fall from her mouth and she did have some mushed up cucumber a short while ago that I'd mashed up for her, but nothing more.
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Head bobbing is pointing to the heart. :(

With a sluggish gut it can take up to two days for what goes in at one end to come out at the other. In a normal gut, it is about a day. You are doing your very best you can.

The guide links from my previous post can hopefully help you to tell which side of the line you still are and when your beloved girl has crossed it; so you can adjust your care accordingly. It is quite a taboo subject and there is no other information around but I have written the guide to be a practical and moral help in a very difficult and heart-breaking situation in order to guide you through all the various aspects you may be facing and as an assurance that you are doing the right thing. All you can do is hang on in there and ride it as it plays out; the outcome is out of your own hands. Feeling so helpless is one of the worst aspects of it all.

Digestive Disorders: Diarrhea - Bloat - GI Stasis (No Gut Movement) And Not Eating
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
I appreciate the reassurance that I'm doing all I can. I'm reading through your written guides at present, thank you. A difficult read, yes, but extremely important, necessary and informative.
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Thank you. It wasn't easy writing the guides, either, because it brought back many memories of losses of mine but if the guides can help ease your pain and stress then that is a job well done.

My thoughts are with you.
 
Just an update for anyone following.

Bumble is still with us. I'm still syringe feeding too. She's weak and has lost more weight but I can't help but assume that was going to happen anyway because her consistent weight loss is what started all of this in the first place.

Last night she managed to wobble her way over to me and sat her head on my crossed legs (I was sat on the floor, tending to my other two pig's bedtime vegetables) and surprisingly she stole some bites of watermelon, tomato and a few sprigs of parsley and ate them unaided. We made her a small plate of fruit and vegetable 'coleslaw' by thinly slicing a wide variety of fruit and veg and she tucked in. (Very small amounts in reality but compared to eating NOTHING but Critical Care for days, I'll class this as 'tucking in'.)

I know this doesn't mean she's getting better but it's nice to see that she wants to eat and drink, so syringe feeding her must be the right thing for now. Her poop is almost normal today, which is a good thing to see too.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Just an update for anyone following.

Bumble is still with us. I'm still syringe feeding too. She's weak and has lost more weight but I can't help but assume that was going to happen anyway because her consistent weight loss is what started all of this in the first place.

Last night she managed to wobble her way over to me and sat her head on my crossed legs (I was sat on the floor, tending to my other two pig's bedtime vegetables) and surprisingly she stole some bites of watermelon, tomato and a few sprigs of parsley and ate them unaided. We made her a small plate of fruit and vegetable 'coleslaw' by thinly slicing a wide variety of fruit and veg and she tucked in. (Very small amounts in reality but compared to eating NOTHING but Critical Care for days, I'll class this as 'tucking in'.)

I know this doesn't mean she's getting better but it's nice to see that she wants to eat and drink, so syringe feeding her must be the right thing for now. Her poop is almost normal today, which is a good thing to see too.
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At least your feeding support is coming through and is making her feel that bit better in herself. Just take every days as it comes and cherish those precious memories.
 
Wiebke said:
At least your feeding support is coming through and is making her feel that bit better in herself. Just take every days as it comes and cherish those precious memories.
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Thank you. She's looking around today instead of just laying still with a glassy expression. She's also talking again, which is beautiful to hear. I've not heard her voice properly in days but now when I stroke her, she does her usual rhythm of gorgeous, appreciative little beeps and peeps. I'm just trying to make the most if it while also having mini nervous breakdowns.
 
AbbieMiddleton said:
Thank you. She's looking around today instead of just laying still with a glassy expression. She's also talking again, which is beautiful to hear. I've not heard her voice properly in days but now when I stroke her, she does her usual rhythm of gorgeous, appreciative little beeps and peeps. I'm just trying to make the most if it while also having mini nervous breakdowns.
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HUGS
 
Wishing you all the best. You’re doing such a fabulous job, don’t forget that. May every day be a happy today. ❤️
 
An update for anyone following.

Bumble is still with us and currently in the care of an exotics specialist. An Ultrasound has revealed that she's absolutely riddled with ovarian cysts and a suspicious mass is linked up with them. Our options were to have her PTS, bring her home and watch her deteriorate or risk surgery in the hope of everything being fully removed and a possible recovery.

My partner and I discussed our options, in tears, and simultaneously said our preference; I opted to have her PTS but he chose surgery.

We've spoken at length and have now decided to leave her in the care of the vet overnight, because if something happens to her overnight we'd be useless wrecks, and we intend to confirm the go ahead for the operation tomorrow morning.

Our current reasoning;

1) If she doesn't survive the night, at least she was in a safe environment being professionally cared for. She clearly wants time to rest on her own and has been avoiding her cage mates.
2) If there's surgery related complications or poor prognosis upon internal investigation we can opt to have her not brought round from the GA which is similar to having her PTS.
3) It takes away the pain of us saying "No" to a possible recovery that I'd probably regret for the rest of my life.

The vet has been very honest and direct about his skills. There is around a 65% success rate.

For anyone Google'ing the cost of this type of thing, the initial consultation and cyst drainage was £36. The Ultrasound £80. The operation will be around £300. Even if our decisions here don't save Bumble, I sincerely hope that documenting this information on here helps somebody.
 
Update;

Bumble has survived another night. She's still as she was before, lethargic, unable to move successfully, being syringe fed and disinterested in food. Her surgery is scheduled for 12pm. I don't remember ever feeling this scared or tense in my entire life. (And I'm a middle-aged Mother of two boys!)

I'm hoping with every ounce of my being that she makes it through the surgery, they remove all the problematic cysts and lumps, and that she recovers fully. I need my baby home. Last night was the first night I've ever spent away from her. 😔
 
I will be thinking of you. I hope surgery goes smoothly and you have your baby home soon.
 
Thank you for your kind words, everyone.

We're registered at three vet practices. One for minor things and two for specialist treatment and advice. (TGPV in Matlock and a highly praised Exotics specialist in Eastwood, Notts.)

After seeing Bumble decline so rapidly over the last week I'm completely unable to envision a recovery (pessimistic by nature, unfortunately) but I do know that, at the very least, she's currently in some of the most professional and capable hands possible. If she doesn't make it through this under the specialist's care, then I don't think she would be making a recovery anywhere.
 
Vegetable_Monster said:
It's pretty much impossible not to think negative and then you start bracing yourself for the worst. I think it's like a defensive mind thing we have. I was the same when my sow went in for her full spay due to a uterine tumour that had to come out, she was fit and healthy but still got negative thoughts
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I agree. There's always going to be that nagging doubt. A defense mechanism against the fear of the unknown. It's both comforting and sad to know that we all go through it. ❤
 
You have done a wonderful job getting her this far, and you are giving her every chance.
She is extremely lucky to have such wonderful and committed owners, and whatever the outcome it is clear no one could have done more for her.
Thinking of all of you, and especially Bumble today.
 
Things have taken an unusual turn. 😥

She's in surgery now and the cysts have been removed but the mass was actually attached to one of her kidneys.

It's something we did anticipate as a possibility due to the fact her drinking had increased recently until the lethargy set in. There's also history to this; last year we found a tumour physically in our Guinea Pig cage which we sent off for testing. Literally lying on the ground. It tested as malignant. We never knew which pig had passed the tumour but one of our girls died two days later and we all naturally assumed it was her. I've always had this nagging feeling that my girl left for The Rainbow Bridge due to a heart condition and that Bumble was the actual culprit. I'll never know for sure.

I can't believe she's had all these cysts and things growing inside her while still trotting around normally, popcorning, tending to her boar, leading the Guinea train around the house/garden and wheeking commands at me! How has she been so strong?!

We opted immediately for a kidney removal as we've been assured that the other kidney looks perfectly healthy. Now back to waiting...... 😔
 
She's gone. 💔

She couldn't come back round from the GA. They tried CPR and got a heartbeat but she suffered a heart attack and left to meet her sister, Pinky, at The Rainbow Bridge.
She wouldn't have been conscious. No pain. No more struggling to survive. We all did our best.
 
I’m sorry for your loss. You tried your best for her and you gave her a chance. She was obviously well loved and she’d have known how much you all cared.
 
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