COVID-19 Just wondering what the rest of the world thinks...

Wiebke said:
I agree with you fully on that score. Lockdown happened too late in the UK and those two weeks in the run up were wasted, not to mention allowing people to continue visit relatives in homes until full lockdown by which time the virus was entrenched. That is one of the main reasons the UK is the worst affected country of the G-7 (although in defence of the UK government, they were not alone in that - most European countries were at that time oblivious that their protection of care homes was woefully inadequate); the other reason is economic and the result of the Tory agenda of hollowing out and dismantling public service for over a decade now...

Unfortunately, too many people will dodge wearing a mask unless it is made mandatory like in other countries - and that will include especially people who are most likely to spread it and some people who are more highly vulnerable at contracting it. As of last week, I was still in a small minority of people wearning a mask when shopping - despite official goverment recommendations.

It is a fact that about 80% of coronavirus cases have been caused by only about 20% of infected people - and most have happened in indoors settings with close contact, bad/recycled air ventilation and talking/singing loudly (i.e. expelling the infected particles from mouth and nose more strongly) as a US study has clearly shown. The more of these factors come together the more likely they are to create another 'super-spreader' event (which has likely already happened somewhere or in several places anyway). It is also worth noting that many of these incidents have happened before the infected person has shown any symptoms at all or when dismissing mild symptoms.

I have my family in Switzerland to compare; especially as they live just across the border from one of the worst French hot spots ( (a several days free church Lent event attented by thousands from all over the place, including of course Swiss members) and have been initially quite affected by it as well considering also that a lot of people are working in Switzerland for higher wages but live in the surrounding countries so Switzerland has never been able to close their borders completely.
Lockdown happened very quickly but it was effective in getting on top of the outbreak much faster and keeping the death rate down despite initial massive problems with securing PPI after they had sent a lot to China at the start of the pandemic. Infection rates and death rates were a lot lower (near zero) before they started reopening very cautiously again; restaurants etc. just about at a similar time with the UK.

I appreciate that Boris Johnson is in a very difficult position economically as he cannot keep lockdown support going indefinitely after his initial plan of keeping 80% of people working at any time during the pandemic has clearly failed, especially with schools not being able to reopen. The starvation and hollowing out of the public sector is sadly coming home to roost in the worst way possible.
But we are walking into a second spike scenario eyes wide open and with the warnings writ large on the wall, just a few weeks behind the USA due to opening up again too much too fast. :(

In my eyes Boris' leadership and the UK government's response has been seriously lacking when it comes to clear messages and leading by example - except by a negative one re. providing the world with a nice example of why the virus is not just a bad flue by nearly dying himself... which has served to wake up at least some people! Give me a country with a woman at the helm anytime; they have overall fared so much better in a real crisis with prompt reaction, clear messages and leadership by example. There are always situation and people who are negatively impacted by any comprehensive measure but the you do it as you see best approach is giving more people a let out then it discommodes others. The results will be unfortunately even more costly - and ultimately we have to pay for it one way or other for years to come.

When it comes down to it, until there is a vaccine to inoculate enough people in order to achieve herd immunity, we have to see it through as a society with all people contributing to minimising the spread and affecting the vulnerable - nothing has changed in that. It is and never should be a political issue used to further a political agenda and political division; it is a societal one.

A vaccine is not happening overnight and then there will be inevitably the next very ugly battle with the anti-vaccine misinformation lobby on social media...
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i could not agree more with everything you've said, new Zealand seems to have done very well and even Scotland has done much better than us. I'm constantly shocked that people take offense when I ask them to stay 6 feet away still or decline a playdate :mal:
 
This pandemic is really showing up the politicians around the world, isn't it?

In all fairness to Boris, he is trying sincerely to navigate a course with bringing in safety measures only to raise a chorus of protests and people pointing out that it is not working for them - hence the wishy washy line. But it is a lot more than leaders in some other countries are doing. And the structural problems in the public service and economy are not quite his personal fault. Nor was it obvious in March just how damaging the virus really is for those it affects more strongly. Boris's first and foremost aim at the start of lockdown was to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and he has just about managed that. Still, there is 'could have done a lot better' in his report!

I wouldn't expect any leader coming through this without making mistakes and misjudgments at some point or other as this is truly unprecedented and there are too many unknowns still in play; the end and any long term implication are nowhere near in sight. We are still only in the early stages of it all.
I try to just judge on performance, not political orientation although that is playing sadly a massive role in some countries, at the price of even more lives.

A lot will become obvious only in hindsight and when it can be analysed, to be learned as lessons for the future. Right now it is sadly one big muddle with every country fighting for itself. My heart is aching for all those people who can't access medical help and all those countries where the medical system can't cope.

But I agree with you that there are still too many people not wearing masks and ignoring distancing in the UK. There are sadly certain shops I refuse to go back into as I am sooo not feeling safe (not to mention my hub)! I haven't been in town since the end of February. :(
 
Wiebke said:
This pandemic is really showing up the politicians around the world, isn't it?

In all fairness to Boris, he is trying sincerely to navigate a course with bringing in safety measures only to raise a chorus of protests and people pointing out that it is not working for them - hence the wishy washy line. But it is a lot more than leaders in some other countries are doing. And the structural problems in the public service and economy are not quite his personal fault. Nor was it obvious in March just how damaging the virus really is for those it affects more strongly. Boris's first and foremost aim at the start of lockdown was to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and he has just about managed that. Still, there is 'could have done better' in his report!

I wouldn't expect any leader coming through this without making mistakes and misjudgments at some point or other as this is truly unprecedented and there are too many unknowns still in play. I try to just judge on performance, not political orientation although that is playing sadly a massive role in some countries, at the price of even more lives.

A lot will become obvious only in hindsight and when it can be analysed, to be learned as lessons for the future. Right now it is sadly one big muddle with every country fighting for itself. my heart is aching for all those people who can't access medical help and all those countries where the medical system can't cope.

But I agree with you that there are still too many people not wearing masks and ignoring distancing in the UK. There are sadly certain shops I refuse to go back into as I am sooo not feeling safe (not to mention my hub)! I haven't been in town since the end of February. :(
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Completely agree, it's incredibly depressing that scientific consensus has been relegated to a belief and therefore a matter of opinion. Although they've been working on this for a veeery long time - this is the result. Hopefully BJ remembers his Thucydides.
 
Wiebke said:
But I agree with you that there are still too many people not wearing masks and ignoring distancing in the UK. There are sadly certain shops I refuse to go back into as I am sooo not feeling safe (not to mention my hub)! I haven't been in town since the end of February. :(
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Same in Belgium. Funny, isn't it? Back in March, people complained that there weren't enough masks for the public (some even fought to get the last box. Literally). Now that there are masks, they complain that they have to wear them.
At least, it's become compulsory in closed public places, though some people still refuse to wear them.

And there's a huge gap between people who are more than willing and ready to resume their lives and people who won't even go back to the store. Some of my colleagues have already gone to amusement parks, for crying out loud.
As I'm living with my mother, who's very much at risk should she catch it, we haven't seen our extended family yet, and aside from the office, I don't go anywhere. Thankfully, I've always been a bookworm.

I can criticize our government as well as the next gal ; I started worrying when the first reports of an epidemic in China started filtering in December, so you can imagine how annoyed I was in March when people coming back from their holiday in Italy were just allowed back in the country without any safety measure. This time, I can say "Told you so."
But in fairness, there have been other epidemics in the recent past that seemed scary but didn't hit Europe or the US the way they had hit Asia.

They were arrogant in assuming we would deal with the virus better than China, and in assuring people that they had plans for such events when in truth they didn't. They failed to anticipate how bad the situation would get, even when they saw what was happening in Italy.
OTOH, the population wasn't ready for a lockdown. Some people still don't believe now that it was necessary. And going out of lockdown is amazingly difficult, especially with people running to go on holiday even though the government keeps asking everyone not to leave the country if they don't need to.

I'm not happy with how long it took them to make certain decisions, but then I have no idea how many factors they have to consider before reaching a consensus.

However, there can be no forgiveness for the way they just abandonned the nursing homes and allowed people to die. And then justified it by saying that these were people who would have died in the year anyway. Difficult decisions or not, the way they totally ignored the problem and won't speak of it now is horrible. What does it say about our society?
 
I must be honest, I am happy with how things have been handled by our FM. She genuinely has stuck to her guns about when we will do what, and if the data hasn't allowed she has delayed steps despite huge challenges from other politicians and the public.

That being said the government has made mistakes in regards to the care centre. In hindsight we know clearing the hospital's was not the right thing to do. However they where preparing to have emergency patients everywhere, little did they realise they where spreading the virus into care homes. One thing, I would say is our FM is honest about this mistake, and acknowledges this.

Things could have been done differently, however we have never had this situation before.
 
Falken said:
Completely agree, it's incredibly depressing that scientific consensus has been relegated to a belief and therefore a matter of opinion. Although they've been working on this for a veeery long time - this is the result. Hopefully BJ remembers his Thucydides.
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Yeah, I have been tempted to cite Thucydides, too... For an Ancient Greek historian his analysis of the timeless dynamics is so relevant again - but we seem sadly wired with generational amnesia, get caught up in the same dynamics and have to make the same mistakes over and over again. Current exhibit: the dysfunctional society in the USA. :(
It is amazing how these nearly 2500 years old insights resonate today!

“Most people, in fact, will not take the trouble in finding out the truth, but are much more inclined to accept the first story they hear.”

“Think, too, of the great part that is played by the unpredictable in war: think of it now, before you are actually comitted to war. The longer a war lasts, the more things tend to depend on accidents. Neither you nor we can see into them: we have to abide their outcome in the dark. And when people are entering upon a war they do things the wrong way round. Action comes first, and it is only when they have already suffered that they begin to think.”

“In a democracy, someone who fails to get elected to office can always console himself with the thought that there was something not quite fair about it.”

“Some legislators only wish to vengeance against a particular enemy. Others only look out for themselves. They devote very little time on the consideration of any public issue. They think that no harm will come from their neglect. They act as if it is always the business of somebody else to look after this or that. When this selfish notion is entertained by all, the commonwealth slowly begins to decay. ”

“Words had to change their ordinary meaning and to take that which was now given them. Reckless audacity came to be considered the courage of a loyal supporter; prudent hesitation, specious cowardice; moderation was held to be a cloak for unmanliness; ability to see all sides of a question incapacity to act on any. Frantic violence became the attribute of manliness; cautious plotting a justifiable means of self-defense. [5] The advocate of extreme measures was always trustworthy; his opponent a man to be suspected. To succeed in a plot was to have a shrewd head, to divine a plot a still shrewder; but to try to provide against having to do either was to break up your party and to be afraid of your adversaries. In short, to forestall an intending criminal, or to suggest the idea of a crime where it was lacking was equally commended, [6] until even blood became a weaker tie than party, from the superior readiness of those united by the latter to dare everything without reserve; for such associations sought not the blessings derivable from established institutions but were formed by ambition to overthrow them; and the confidence of their members in each other rested less on any religious sanction than upon complicity in crime.”


flintstones said:
I must be honest, I am happy with how things have been handled by our FM. She genuinely has stuck to her guns about when we will do what, and if the data hasn't allowed she has delayed steps despite huge challenges from other politicians and the public.

That being said the government has made mistakes in regards to the care centre. In hindsight we know clearing the hospital's was not the right thing to do. However they where preparing to have emergency patients everywhere, little did they realise they where spreading the virus into care homes. One thing, I would say is our FM is honest about this mistake, and acknowledges this.

Things could have been done differently, however we have never had this situation before.
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I can happily live with a leader who is honest about their mistakes, takes full responsibility for them and openly rues them.

What I simply can't stomach is the prevalent blame game and shifting the responsibility to others, trying to explain it away, or the throwing of the midden heap at anybody who dares to critise (not naming any names) - the more so the more valid any point.

There is still no plan on how to support care homes and care home staff and infected older people with care needs in local lockdowns and in case of a next wave that I have heard of. I agree that it should be a priority. :(

But for their moral uprightness, Nicola Sturgeon and any other leader who displays this rarest of political gumptions of accepting that the bucket stops with them (to cite Obama) have my respect, irrespective of their political orientation.
As much as I am not a fan of him, his voice when Boris apologised at least sounded sincere and very personal, unlike that of most of his ministers who still play the corporate 'not our fault' and 'we haven't done anything wrong' game. I just wish they were scrambling less and sticking to their guns more with very clear and precise messages.

But the general lack of preparation and too much last minute panicky scrambling at the start have had devastating consequences. My thumbs up for Spain for officially acknowledging their failure to protect the weakest as a society and marking it in a official ceremony. It cannot heal the wounds but it can at least acknowledge the total fail as a country and as a society to lay the foundation for a slow healing process.
The least we can do is to take responsibility as a government and as a society - and work hard to prevent it from happening again!
 
Wiebke said:
This pandemic is really showing up the politicians around the world, isn't it?

In all fairness to Boris, he is trying sincerely to navigate a course with bringing in safety measures only to raise a chorus of protests and people pointing out that it is not working for them - hence the wishy washy line. But it is a lot more than leaders in some other countries are doing. And the structural problems in the public service and economy are not quite his personal fault. Nor was it obvious in March just how damaging the virus really is for those it affects more strongly. Boris's first and foremost aim at the start of lockdown was to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and he has just about managed that. Still, there is 'could have done a lot better' in his report!

I wouldn't expect any leader coming through this without making mistakes and misjudgments at some point or other as this is truly unprecedented and there are too many unknowns still in play; the end and any long term implication are nowhere near in sight. We are still only in the early stages of it all.
I try to just judge on performance, not political orientation although that is playing sadly a massive role in some countries, at the price of even more lives.

A lot will become obvious only in hindsight and when it can be analysed, to be learned as lessons for the future. Right now it is sadly one big muddle with every country fighting for itself. My heart is aching for all those people who can't access medical help and all those countries where the medical system can't cope.

But I agree with you that there are still too many people not wearing masks and ignoring distancing in the UK. There are sadly certain shops I refuse to go back into as I am sooo not feeling safe (not to mention my hub)! I haven't been in town since the end of February. :(
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Well said
 
piggieminder said:
I've had a complete melt down today after seeing Boris is considering making masks compulsory in shops, I've been worrying about this happening since the start. I've tried to wear a mask but anything on my head (even struggle to wear a hat in the rain) or face gives me a panic attack. If we have to wear masks I won't be able to shop and having been completely let down by the supermarket home delivery system I don't know what we will do. My partner can't wear a mask as he has COPD and can't breath with one on.
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There are face covering exemption cards that you can get. I saw a poster about it today. The website to get them or has information on where to get them is www.keepsafe.org.uk/mask
 
Thank you @Lily & Rose
I'm practising wearing a mask around the house for a few minutes a day. I'm getting better with it and not going into an immediate panic trying to pull it off. I've realised this fear has come about from the pain of a damaged nerve I suffered 20 years ago which paralysed my face. It's time I got over this and am able to have things around my face head again. All things are possible with perseverance. I'm also stocking up with food and essentials so that I don't have to shop much, my once a week shopping trip is about to become even less.
 
piggieminder said:
Thank you @Lily & Rose
I'm practising wearing a mask around the house for a few minutes a day. I'm getting better with it and not going into an immediate panic trying to pull it off. I've realised this fear has come about from the pain of a damaged nerve I suffered 20 years ago which paralysed my face. It's time I got over this and am able to have things around my face head again. All things are possible with perseverance. I'm also stocking up with food and essentials so that I don't have to shop much, my once a week shopping trip is about to become even less.
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Have you got neighbours who could support you with shopping if necessary?

Putting the mask on is rather stifling at first but then you get used to it and forget about it as you concentrate fully getting everything you need for a week with a hub and 27 piggies while dodging other people as much as possible.

I hope that you can extend the times bit by bit and allow you to use pick-up rather than browsing whenever possible as an alternative option. Try to give yourself points for every minute more that you can stand it and then convert every minute into a point and turn them into a little reward scheme for yourself?
Would it help if you tried to pictured the mask as medieval armour with space to breathe to keep you safe in your mind instead as a source of distress?

It is tough getting over previous traumas, but you can do it especially when you know the reason and know that it no longer applies. I can't remember it of course but I was severely traumatised as a one year old when a gp with one of the big needles they still had in the 60ies failed to draw blood for testing from the arm (despite FAR too many of tries). As a result I had a panic about needles for many years; trying to tell me not to carry on so was about the least helpful advice!

I did get over it thanks to knowing where my fear had come from and that it was not not an irrational thing. Thankfully needles and finger pricks are not the kind of monster size they used to be anymore. But I am still not ready to go and donate blood...
 
I will get there, I've over come worse in the past! Now I've worked out where the fear has come from I can beat it. Unfortunately none of my neighbours are shopping either for various reasons but we have all been very busy distance swapping things we have and don't want. The piggies have come off particularly well with veggies as one of my neighbours is having veg boxes delivered every week, the contents are a random surprise so she often has surplus.
 
piggieminder said:
I will get there, I've over come worse in the past! Now I've worked out where the fear has come from I can beat it. Unfortunately none of my neighbours are shopping either for various reasons but we have all been very busy distance swapping things we have and don't want. The piggies have come off particularly well with veggies as one of my neighbours is having veg boxes delivered every week, the contents are a random surprise so she often has surplus.
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It's just speculation, but hopefully from 1st August when shielding ends, online shopping slots might become more available. I can fully sympathise, that although it may not be rational, sometimes we find ourselves in a battle with our emotions to do the right thing, for instance, and it's silly I still have a fear of clowns.
 
Falken said:
It's just speculation, but hopefully from 1st August when shielding ends, online shopping slots might become more available. I can fully sympathise, that although it may not be rational, sometimes we find ourselves in a battle with our emotions to do the right thing, for instance, and it's silly I still have a fear of clowns.
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I fully understand too, I have a very irrational phobia of ballpit balls, no its not a joke my kids get invited to a birthday party someone else has to take them its an actual living nightmare, I was locked in a playarea and the lights turned out on my 3rd birthday, I don't remember it but even seeing a lone ball is like nails down a blackboard 😳 I don't think anyone should be forced to wear a mask if there's a genuine reason not to, I'm sure you'd be able to get a mask exemption card :)
 
piggieminder said:
I'm looking forward to having online shopping delivered again like many people are looking forward to holidays.
You are not alone in your fear @Falken I used to work with someone who was terrified of them, couldn't even stand seeing a picture.
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:) I was forced to watch 'IT' at a young age, and I was invited to a birthday party in nursery I think, they had a clown, I did the natural thing and kicked him in the shins and ran off - I know it's silly, but I still can't stand them. When I started listening to true crime podcasts, when I started running, I don't think it's such a bad thing, after Gacey XD.
 
piggieminder said:
I'm looking forward to having online shopping delivered again like many people are looking forward to holidays.
You are not alone in your fear @Falken I used to work with someone who was terrified of them, couldn't even stand seeing a picture.
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I hate clowns too, also baby dolls, they freak me right out- I remember some random fake auntie woman buying my daughter 2 creepy baby dolls and I honestly couldnt be in the same room as them! And I am also looking forward to better access to online home shopping delivery slots, the only one I could get in a whole fortnight was 11pm tonight, so I'm pulling what for me is practically an all-nighter waiting up for Ocado salads and veggie burgers :)
 
:) To add, I'd like to mention my mother's personal phobia - garden gnomes, I had a cousin that found out about this and she left a note cut up from newspapers (there is a reason I've not seen her since 2012) and a garden gnome purched on the doorstep. I was tasked with disposing of it, which I did with great gusto against a garden wall. My aunt had been very proactive and had got me a fingerprinting kit, so I dusted the crazy cut out newspaper letter and pretended the police were involved, which had the desired effect. My family is of course crazy, which probably explains my anxiety XD.
 
Falken said:
:) To add, I'd like to mention my mother's personal phobia - garden gnomes, I had a cousin that found out about this and she left a note cut up from newspapers (there is a reason I've not seen her since 2012) and a garden gnome purched on the doorstep. I was tasked with disposing of it, which I did with great gusto against a garden wall. My aunt had been very proactive and had got me a fingerprinting kit, so I dusted the crazy cut out newspaper letter and pretended the police were involved, which had the desired effect. My family is of course crazy, which probably explains my anxiety XD.
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:) As I'm already oversharing, and we're all for animal rights here -

The same cousin became obsessed with buying an Afircan Grey Parrot, this parrot was kept as a sort of temporary entertainment, and consigned to a far too small cage, they do of course, cost a fortune. They're apparently the most intelligent of parrots, but the only word he ever learnt was the name of her husband (there's a sucker for every role, I suppose), it goes without saying that she was a human sealion, and has now graduated to human walrus, I'm not sure of an extant species of semi-aquatic mammal that she will be next (I was genuinely worried that she'd starve to death when McD's closed). Eventually said parrot turns up dead, the vets opinion, of this most intelligent of parrots, was that it committed suicide, which given the intellectual prowess of my cousin, I'm not surprised it reached a nihilist conclusion.
 
piggieminder said:
Thank you @Lily & Rose
I'm practising wearing a mask around the house for a few minutes a day. I'm getting better with it and not going into an immediate panic trying to pull it off. I've realised this fear has come about from the pain of a damaged nerve I suffered 20 years ago which paralysed my face. It's time I got over this and am able to have things around my face head again. All things are possible with perseverance. I'm also stocking up with food and essentials so that I don't have to shop much, my once a week shopping trip is about to become even less.
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I watched someone at work the other day try and take a bite out of her sandwich without taking her mask off. You do get used to them and she’d forgotten she had it on. We have had no choice and 12.5 hour shifts in them since March so we are very used to them but it did take a while. At the start my ears were raw and my face felt irritated when i wasn’t wearing it but now it’s largely fine. If it’s not on quite right my glasses steam up but there’s a knack to that. So you’re right to try and build it up slowly.
 
I was just wondering, with the global pandemic, the thousands of deaths, the impending financial catastrophe etc, if any of his supporters could please explain this:

trump-beans.webp

P.s - This one is for James.
 
Well...there was a protest in Hyde Park today against wearing masks. I've seen photos of the protest in an online newspaper and one was wearing a "No to 5G, No to Vaccination" vest. 🙄😑
 
What you read about Bristol in the press is very far from the truth for us mere mortals who can't afford the trendy lifestyle or are too old for the night life! As in all things the image that is pushed by those in power is often a tiny fraction of the truth.
 
piggieminder said:
What you read about Bristol in the press is very far from the truth for us mere mortals who can't afford the trendy lifestyle or are too old for the night life! As in all things the image that is pushed by those in power is often a tiny fraction of the truth.
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I suppose it's very similar to London in a way, tremendous wealth surrounded by everyone just struggling to make their way.
 
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