Is this pair actually working…?

piggl

piggl

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Middle december last year I found a reasonably large lump/abscess under my 6 month old boars chin.
Remi (6 months), Reggie (10 months)

We went to the vets but waited over the holidays to see what would happen. After the holidays we decided his lump would be removed on th 9th of January.
Since then things have been a bit up and down, from swelling and bleeding so I removed my young boar from his older pair.
Another thing to note is that due to the placement and lack of infection from the initial abscess, the vet believes it was likely from a bite/nip/scratch.

They had been living side by side from the 10th and they were getting on fine. Fast forward and his wound is healing well, inside to out, and i’m doing a full cage clean so I decided I would try introduce them again.

I fully cleaned it, left it empty and put them together. They don’t really care, it’s just like any other day.
The issues are as follows, young Remi does a lot of chasing/trying to get in Reggie’s face, Reggie doesn’t like that at all. Reggie tries to hump Remi and he’s having none of it, lifting his head and showing his teeth.

They also try and smell/steal from each others mouths, which just ends up in them fighting.

It’s like they tolerate each other but don’t like each other that much. I want them to work so badly but I just really feel, from the way they’re interacting now, that his abscess originated from a nip/bite from Reggie.
I have linked a couple videos, please have a watch of them.

main video
23 January 2024
23 January 2024
23 January 2024
23 January 2024

I’ve separated them, they just don’t seem like they get along, but i’m looking for anyone else’s thoughts :)
 
Things do look a little tense between them and I’d be a little worried if the vet thinks Remi’s abscess started from an infected bite / scratch from Reggie 😞

Quite a few pigs tolerate each other rather than be the best of friends though 🤔
 
I agree it does look a bit tense. The wooden house may be a bone of contention? Wanting to claim an object like a house is a sign of dominance and chasing out your companion too.

I think if you try and bond them again I would remove all things that can be “claimed” and just provide a huge pile of hay for them to sleep under if an overnight stay is needed. If you feel that they seem happier being neighbours then leave them be

Abscesses can be caused by all sorts of reasons, bites, scratches, even a sharp piece of hay that breaks the skin and leads to bacteria getting in
 
It does feel very tense, It makes me so uncomfortable!

The issue is, this is just their temporary cage, they actually live in a hutch 70% of the year.
If they can’t go together, I cant have them one ontop of each other because this would also be classed as them being alone, I cant keep them in my room and I cant get rid of one of them.
I love them both so much, and now i’m stuck.
 
Oh that’s a difficult one, I can understand why you want them together. Well for now leave them separate until Remi is fully healed and try again. Remi is a mad teenager at the moment and trying to test Reggie (who is a teenager too) to see if he can dominate Reggie. It is a battle of wits and you are caught in the middle of it.

Illness can upset any bond and shift the relationship balance slightly. I remember when Bill had an operation, Ted tried it on and got away with it while Bill was recovering but gently Bill stamped his authority and put Ted in his place after a few days. They were extremely close and Got on really well. Ted was a very food oriented piggie and would always steal food from Bill’s mouth which he took in his stride

Your boys are young and both are wanting to be “top piggie” which is ok, but at the end of the day they either work that out or they may have to live separated. The videos showed tensions but I have seen worse when bonding my Hector to Posh and Ginger which was absolutely frightening and a total no, no
 
I dont see anything too concerning in the videos, their behaviour is that of pigs establishing a hierarchy, with the tufty pig being the more dominant. Although the fuzzy pig is not allogether happy with the situation he backs down in every video. As they have been separated it will take a couple of weeks for things to calm down and their bond re establish, which hopefully it will. Does the behaviour escalate beyond what you have filmed?
Abscesses under piggies chins are not uncommon and usually not the result of a bite. Bites usually occur on the ears or around the mouth if they fight, or on the rump if they are attacked while running away.
 
:agr:

I also wouldn’t be too concerned about what the videos are showing and I’d not have separated on the basis of them.

You’ve got to give them the full two weeks together (unless a full fight actually occurs) for them to get things back to how they were.
 
Pound Shilling & Pig said:
I dont see anything too concerning in the videos, their behaviour is that of pigs establishing a hierarchy, with the tufty pig being the more dominant. Although the fuzzy pig is not allogether happy with the situation he backs down in every video. As they have been separated it will take a couple of weeks for things to calm down and their bond re establish, which hopefully it will. Does the behaviour escalate beyond what you have filmed?
Abscesses under piggies chins are not uncommon and usually not the result of a bite. Bites usually occur on the ears or around the mouth if they fight, or on the rump if they are attacked while running away.
Click to expand...
No the behaviour did not escalate, it was just them being apart from each other, and whenever they came together they would face off like seen in the videos. I did act a bit on my nerves, I need them to come together so badly (so I don't have to give either away) and with his abscess and the constant facing off, it just became a bit too much for me. I didn't give them a proper chance to work things out.

The completely fresh cage was my best chance at reuniting them, as all my spare grids are used to make their winter cage (the one they're seen in), so now I do not really know where to try introduce them.
Their cage is 5x2, and they each have half each. If I remove the barrier and all their "personal" items, could this be classed as a neutral space (I will take them both out before removing the barrier, I would not remove it while they are each in their own "space")

Do you feel the mainly black and white pig, with the ginger face, is the more dominant one?
Either way, thanks for your advice/response. I was very anxious all evening thinking they would never be able to go together again, without putting my level head on!
 
You can reintroduce them in a bath tub if it comes to it. Or on the bathroom floor if there aren’t any places they can get behind.
Cleaning the cage, removing items and removing the barrier may not be neutral enough. It should ideally be somewhere outside of that space.
 
Yes, the mainly black and white piggy is the more dominant one. He is not being aggressive, just assertive and when the other backs down he let's him have some space. They are not really facing off with each other as such, as the fuzzy pig is always quick to back down and is not standing his ground, which a good sign.
 
I know technically all bondings start from anew whenever piggies are separated, but what are the chances my boys already know, like/tolerate each other.

I’ve put them together and they’re completely fine. A little bit of pee spraying and head lifting from Remi (Mainly Black and White tufty pig), and some rumble strutting from Reggie (Fuzzy, ginger/brown pig) but apart from that it’s like they’ve never been apart.
They’re eating away happily, popcorning (From Reggie) and the occasional rumble strut, but nothing more exciting than that.

I’m still going to let them hang out for longer before putting anything in, but i’m feeling pretty good about this.
It won’t let me @ but thank you poundshilling&pig, I definitely think you’re correct, Remi (Black and White) is the more dominant one, and sometimes gets in Reggie’s face but always gives him his space.
 
Maybe I spoke too soon.

They’re fine, eating happily near each other but whenever they actually come face to face there is head lifting, rumble strutting and general tense-ness. Reggie ends up running away and then they go back to eating
 
piggl said:
Maybe I spoke too soon.

They’re fine, eating happily near each other but whenever they actually come face to face there is head lifting, rumble strutting and general tense-ness. Reggie ends up running away and then they go back to eating
Click to expand...
This is normal. It will take a couple of weeks for things to settle.
 
Things seemed to have been going fine. They ate their dinner together well and they seemed to be enjoying having the space and the company.

Again, whenever they come face to face it’s a lot of head lifting/rumble strutting and sometimes teeth chattering.

I made a mistake by putting the hammock Reggie had been sleeping in all week into their cage. I thought it would be fine because they were together but i think he got territorial because Remi was stood in it and Reggie start chattering his teeth at him and sort of half lunging at him. Remi “fought back” with a chase and an attempted nip at Reggie’s side, but I don’t think Reggie was hurt at all.
I removed it quickly and things went back to normal.

I’ve mentioned this before but it’s alot of them approaching each other, Reggie (fuzzy, ginger pig) raising his head and Remi sniffing/looking around his face and body, and then Reggie running away. Is this normal?

They have two bottles, three separate hay piles and a couple hides with 2 or more exits.
 
Bonus Pictures of the troublesome duo, begging for pea flakes as if they didn’t have fresh hay and scattered nuggets around their cage.
(Please excuse their nails, you wouldn’t believe me but they were both cut two weeks ago. They grow so fast!)
 

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piggl said:
Things seemed to have been going fine. They ate their dinner together well and they seemed to be enjoying having the space and the company.

Again, whenever they come face to face it’s a lot of head lifting/rumble strutting and sometimes teeth chattering.

I made a mistake by putting the hammock Reggie had been sleeping in all week into their cage. I thought it would be fine because they were together but i think he got territorial because Remi was stood in it and Reggie start chattering his teeth at him and sort of half lunging at him. Remi “fought back” with a chase and an attempted nip at Reggie’s side, but I don’t think Reggie was hurt at all.
I removed it quickly and things went back to normal.

I’ve mentioned this before but it’s alot of them approaching each other, Reggie (fuzzy, ginger pig) raising his head and Remi sniffing/looking around his face and body, and then Reggie running away. Is this normal?

They have two bottles, three separate hay piles and a couple hides with 2 or more exits.
Click to expand...
Yes, the dominant piggy sniffing/poking his nose into the other one's fur is normal. The less dominant pig running away is normal. Head raising is more complex than it may seem. Pigs can have nose to nose head raising contests where the winner/more dominant will raise their head the highest. But a more dominant pig will also at times push an other's head up as part of dominance behaviour. And a less dominant pig may raise his own head in defence while at the same time signalling to the dominant pig that he is not a threat by allowing him to sniff his mouth, which sounds like what you are describing and is normal. It seems to me that Reggie knows he is the underpig but is not yet comfortable with the idea.
Brief bouts if teeth chattering is ok but if it becomes prolonged and loud and no one backs down, then tempers are starting to frey.
 
Pound Shilling & Pig said:
Yes, the dominant piggy sniffing/poking his nose into the other one's fur is normal. The less dominant pig running away is normal. Head raising is more complex than it may seem. Pigs can have nose to nose head raising contests where the winner/more dominant will raise their head the highest. But a more dominant pig will also at times push an other's head up as part of dominance behaviour. And a less dominant pig may raise his own head in defence while at the same time signalling to the dominant pig that he is not a threat by allowing him to sniff his mouth, which sounds like what you are describing and is normal. It seems to me that Reggie knows he is the underpig but is not yet comfortable with the idea.
Brief bouts if teeth chattering is ok but if it becomes prolonged and loud and no one backs down, then tempers are starting to frey.
Click to expand...
Is Reggie likely to accept his new stance in the pairing?

I’m also wondering if you have any tips to notice if things aren’t going well. For instance I was laying in my bed right now and I heard them running about and potentially getting into a little scuffle, but by the time i sat up they had ran away. I cant tell if they were popcorning and having fun or having an “arguement”

I just feel unconfident in my ability to spot if this is or isnt working out, and my anxiety definitely isn’t helping.

Thanks for your reply/advice, I really appreciate it.
 
They may have had a little scuffle but not something to worry about. If they both start teeth chattering and it is loud and persistent that is the time you may need to get ready to step in. Teeth chattering basically equates to agitation, on a sliding scale from mild, quiet chattering, when for example they are on your lap and need a wee, to to full blown loud as they can chattering when they are getting ready to fight, while circling each other or fronting up with their fur raised, although you won't be able to tell if Reggie’s fur is raised as it is fuzzy.
Is Reggie the older of the two? And the bigger the first time they were introduced? If Remi was a baby then Reggie would have been top pig by default but as adults it may not be the role he is best suited to, in which case in the long run he will be happier as the underpig but it will take a little adjustment on his part.
 
Pound Shilling & Pig said:
They may have had a little scuffle but not something to worry about. If they both start teeth chattering and it is loud and persistent that is the time you may need to get ready to step in. Teeth chattering basically equates to agitation, on a sliding scale from mild, quiet chattering, when for example they are on your lap and need a wee, to to full blown loud as they can chattering when they are getting ready to fight, while circling each other or fronting up with their fur raised, although you won't be able to tell if Reggie’s fur is raised as it is fuzzy.
Is Reggie the older of the two? And the bigger the first time they were introduced? If Remi was a baby then Reggie would have been top pig by default but as adults it may not be the role he is best suited to, in which case in the long run he will be happier as the underpig but it will take a little adjustment on his part.
Click to expand...
Yes, Reggie is the older of the two, and yes Remi was a baby when they were introduced. Reggie is now 1 year and Remi is 6-7 months.

Such an interesting dynamic between them, I love how complicated but amazing the whole process can be.

One new thing I have noticed is that Reggie is now preemptively moving away when Remi comes near, he doesn’t even allow the interaction to start.
 
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I do suffer with anxiety so I do apologise if the constant back and forth is annoying but I can’t help but worry. I’m so scared they have a big fight at night and I can’t do anything about it so they’ll just be stuck next to each other for possibly hours.

Here’s something I just saw. Reggie’s under a hide and Remi runs in and pushes Reggie out from it. Reggie chatters his teeth and they have a stand off for a while, then Remi chases him all the way to the other end of the cage. Reggie backs off, raises his head and chatters his teeth. Again they stand off until eventually Remi half lunges at him and Reggie hides in a small hide (only big enough for one) and chatters his teeth for a bit while Remi starts to eat some hay he’s found next to him.

This happens and then I sit and anxiously watch thinking this is the end. But then they just chill out and eat some hay in each others vecinity.

It’s just the constant running away/backing up from Reggie that’s making my brain run in circles.
Edit - Now while i’m typing this, Remi accidentally ran into a hide Reggie was under. So he just backs up and goes elsewhere, which I am aware is good, normal behaviour.

I think I just need to go to sleep. They have places to hide if things go wrong and plenty of room to be apart if/when needed.

Question - Can bullying in guinea pigs be more subtle than removing them from hides and stopping them from eating. Is instant backing away/fear from the underpiggy classed as bullying?
 
Bullying in boars tends to be very upfront. It’s sows who are subtle about bullying so it may be harder to detect.

What you are seeing is dominance. Removing a piggy from a hide is dominance - the dominant piggy will have his pick.
Backing down is respecting the hierarchy. It’s not through fear.
You will not be able to call bullying within the first two weeks of a new bond as this is when they are settling the hierarchy.
 
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