Good signs should I move them in?

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*CJ*

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Hi everyone. We sadly lost one of our girl guinea pigs at only 5 months old and having only had her for five weeks. We were devastated and wanted to make sure her little friend had a companion as soon as possible.

We've been bonding her slowly with another female who we are told is a month younger but seems smaller. The initial meeting seemed to go well but once we got home our girl got territorial and was nipping at the other.

The lady we got her off took her back for a few days and then we got another cage and brought her back. We have been switching them between the cages to get used to each others scent, have placed the cages next to each other so they can hear one another and been introducing them in a pop up run for half an hour to an hour at a time.

At first our girl was doing a lot of bum sniffing and nose butting but no biting. The other little one was very vocal and timid, burrowing under anything she could find.

It's been 2-3 days and now they will sit on me with each other cuddling and run around the run and eat together. My girl still does the occasional nose but and the other protests loudly but never goes back. She sometimes even gets loud if mine goes really close but I wonder if that's because she's a little scared after her first encounter?

My girl has also been popcorning like mad and keeps looking into the cage for the other one.

Our new arrival has come out of her shell lots but still seems a little nervous. Should I move them in together yet or give them longer?
 
When you bond, you have to do it to whatever conclusion it may be. Sometimes some piggies need to be pushed to the wire then separated.

I would put them in the (neutral) bonding area for a few hours before you move them back into their thoroughly cleaned and rearranged new digs. When you put together and separate, it means they have to start from scratch.

The protesting from the young one is just submission sounds. It sounds worse to us than it actually is. Have a read of the guides below.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
 
:agr:

I'm sorry for your loss

When you brought them home the first time after the initial meeting (presumably at the place you got her from), did you put them straight into the cage that your older piggy lived in or did you put them back on neutral territory?
How long were they together at that initial meeting?
If the initial meeting wasn’t long and you brought them home and put them directly into the cage, theh that may be where the issue was.
After a short speed dating meeting, you need to go back to neutral territory (not the cage) and continue allowing them to bond for several more hours. If you put them directly in the cage after a short initial meeting then it’s possible it was seen as a territory invasion and they werent comfortable enough with each other.

Bonding is all or nothing. By putting them together for only 30-60 minutes and then separating, they aren’t getting far enough into the bonding process and the act of separating them undoes everything they had managed to achieve and then at the next meeting they need to start all over - so the process of forming a bond is constantly interrupted.

As above, put them in the neutral bonding pen for several hours and leave them to it. If all goes well after several hours, then they must remain together from then on and you can then move them to the cleaned out cage they are to live in. You only separate them at that point if the bonding clearly fails (and then they need to be kept apart).
It takes two weeks of them being together for them to fully form their relationship and sort the fine details of their hierarchy.

And as above the loud protests and squeaking is submission and is a good sign.
 
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Please do have a good read of the bonding guides that have been linked above, carry out the bonding in an entirely neutral place with no distractions - just hay is ideal - and only once you are satisfied that they have accepted each other do you move them into a completely clean and neutral cage - preferably with all houses having 2 entrances and exits so no one can get trapped. Good luck.
 
Thanks so much everyone. So I basically made a total mistake. I rushed out within 24hrs to get my girl a friend. The lady had them around in her enclosure for half hour and they seemed fine. Brought them back here to a clean cage but mine got territorial. It was quite late in the day and I didn't have another cage so we left it a few days, got a separate cage and did scent swapping then short spurts of 'dating'. They seem fine in the neutral play area. One min they're eating and following each other and my girl is popcorning about. Next min mine is giving the little one a sharp butt with her nose but I've read this is normal and just sorting their hierarchy. I need to clean their cages tomorrow so may put them in the neutral area for a few hours and then put them together in one cage. Thanks for all your advice. X
 
Yes that is normal dominance behaviour - you will see a lot of it. It does sound as if they will like each other so do put them on neutral territory and then leave them from then on.

Good luck and keep us posted

The guides that have been linked in explain everything
 
Dominance behaviour is normal to piggies but distressing to humans who watch it. I’m currently holding my nerve with a group bonding. We are 10 days in and the dominance behaviours are decreasing in frequency and severity but it’s been pretty nerve wracking.
 
VickiA said:
Dominance behaviour is normal to piggies but distressing to humans who watch it. I’m currently holding my nerve with a group bonding. We are 10 days in and the dominance behaviours are decreasing in frequency and severity but it’s been pretty nerve wracking.
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It does sound distressing, especially as the little one has such a high pitch. I hope everything goes smoothly
 
Piggies&buns said:
Yes that is normal dominance behaviour - you will see a lot of it. It does sound as if they will like each other so do put them on neutral territory and then leave them from then on.

Good luck and keep us posted

The guides that have been linked in explain everything
Click to expand...
I've cleaned the cages out and put them in a neutral area. The little one is such a burrower she goes under the blanket I laid down so I've lifted that and just put lots of food in. Lol.
 
Hi. I've put them in the cage and the youngest has suddenly displayed dominant behaviours out the blue and is rumbling, chasing and nipping at my other guinea pig. It sounds so bad. Do I just leave them to it?
 
*CJ* said:
Hi. I've put them in the cage and the youngest has suddenly displayed dominant behaviours out the blue and is rumbling, chasing and nipping at my other guinea pig. It sounds so bad. Do I just leave them to it?
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Yes leave them to it while it is just dominance
It’s quite normal for this to happen as going into the cage is a new territory and it will cause another round of dominance - it will take around two weeks for things to settle.

How long were they in the bonding pen?
Do all the hides in the cage have two exits?
Is the cage big enough?

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
 
Have you cleaned and rearranged the cage so it no longer looks like her cage? Please just make sure all hides have 2 exits and there’s nowhere that one can get trapped. Other than that, please just familiarise yourself with the dominance behaviours in the guides and let them work it out unless there is bullying going on.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Yes leave them to it while it is just dominance
It’s quite normal for this to happen as going into the cage is a new territory and it will cause another round of dominance - it will take around two weeks for things to settle.

How long were they in the bonding pen?
Do all the hides in the cage have two exits?
Is the cage big enough?

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Click to expand...
They were in the pen for about 3hours. My older girl was bring the most dominant. The cage is 39inches by 22 inches and has a mezzanine for feeding.
I've taken the hides I have out for now as they only had one entrance and I couldn't cut a second hole in but I've put tonnes of bedding straw and hat and a tunnel in.
 
VickiA said:
Have you cleaned and rearranged the cage so it no longer looks like her cage? Please just make sure all hides have 2 exits and there’s nowhere that one can get trapped. Other than that, please just familiarise yourself with the dominance behaviours in the guides and let them work it out unless there is bullying going on.
Click to expand...
Yes it's totally clean and fresh. I've moved the hides I had for now as they only have one entrance and I couldn't cut a second. I'll have another go. There's lots of bedding.. I've been reading all the threads and guides they are really helpful thank you. They seem to have calmed down now. God this is stressful to a newbie. I didn't expect all this in the first two months. Live them to bits though.
 
*CJ* said:
They were in the pen for about 3hours. My older girl was bring the most dominant. The cage is 39inches by 22 inches and has a mezzanine for feeding.
I've taken the hides I have out for now as they only had one entrance and I couldn't cut a second hole in but I've put tonnes of bedding straw and hat and a tunnel in.
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I’m afraid the cage is far too small and doesnt meet welfare requirements as it comes in at just 99cm x 55cm. The upper level does not count towards the cage size as piggies need a single level cage.

Two sows need a welfare minimum of 120x 60cm (48 by 24 inches) but 150x60cm (60 by 24 inches) is recommended

With the cage being so small, you are likely to run into problems with lack of space and that can damage a relationship

Cage Size Guide

Please ensure you only use hay, not straw for bedding. Straw is not suitable for piggies due to it being sharp.

Do you have any cardboard boxes to use as hides instead that you can cut two holes into temporarily until you can get two exit hides?
 
Piggies&buns said:
I’m afraid the cage is far too small and doesnt meet welfare requirements as it comes in at just 99cm x 55cm. The upper level does not count towards the cage size as piggies need a single level cage.

Two sows need a welfare minimum of 120x 60cm (48 by 24 inches) but 150x60cm (60 by 24 inches) is recommended

With the cage being so small, you are likely to run into problems with lack of space and that can damage a relationship

Cage Size Guide

Please ensure you only use hay, not straw for bedding. Straw is not suitable for piggies due to it being sharp.

Do you have any cardboard boxes to use as hides instead that you can cut two holes into temporarily until you can get two exit hides?
Click to expand...
Really!? Omg the pet shop told us it was fine. Mind you we were planning on getting a bigger one as they grow. I've managed to cut extra doors in the hides I've got.
 
*CJ* said:
Really!? Omg the pet shop told us it was fine. Mind you we were planning on getting a bigger one as they grow. I've managed to cut extra doors in the hides I've got.
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Unfortunately hearing stories like this is one we see a lot - it’s such a shame they are able to sell cages which are too small.

Its good you plan on getting them a bigger one, but it would be best if you could do so sooner rather than later. Lack of space can cause problems and unfortunately if those problems do occur, then it could be too late to get them a bigger cage as their bond could be broken.
Changing cage and territory down the line does mean they will need to reestablish their relationship and hierarchy so when you move them to a new cage, you will likely see an increase in dominance while they reestablish (this will be a further two week period). You can minimise this by using soiled bedding in the new cage so it still smells of them.
 
*CJ* said:
Really!? Omg the pet shop told us it was fine. Mind you we were planning on getting a bigger one as they grow. I've managed to cut extra doors in the hides I've got.
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Don't get me started on this, it really makes me mad! One day I'll dig out the starter cage we were sold for my first pair (admittedly many moons ago) and upload a pic - it should be criminal. Information was pretty poor back then, not sure what the excuse is now. Please don't blame yourself for their failure.

If C&C isn't for you, check out the Ferplast 140 or 160. I have the 140 and would recommend it for two, although the front flap is a bit annoying to work with.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Unfortunately hearing stories like this is one we see a lot - it’s such a shame they are able to sell cages which are too small.

Its good you plan on getting them a bigger one, but it would be best if you could do so sooner rather than later. Lack of space can cause problems and unfortunately if those problems do occur, then it could be too late to get them a bigger cage as their bond could be broken.
Changing cage and territory down the line does mean they will need to reestablish their relationship and hierarchy so when you move them to a new cage, you will likely see an increase in dominance while they reestablish (this will be a further two week period). You can minimise this by using soiled bedding in the new cage so it still smells of them.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Omg going through this again. Noooo 🙈 I've measured and can just to say fit 150. I'll take a look thank you.
 
poggle said:
Don't get me started on this, it really makes me mad! One day I'll dig out the starter cage we were sold for my first pair (admittedly many moons ago) and upload a pic - it should be criminal. Information was pretty poor back then, not sure what the excuse is now. Please don't blame yourself for their failure.

If C&C isn't for you, check out the Ferplast 140 or 160. I have the 140 and would recommend it for two, although the front flap is a bit annoying to work with.
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It's just sadly been such a nightmare. Had no idea about all this bonding etc. We bought two, they were happy. No one could have expected the loss of fudge it was so sad poor little thing. I feel so stressed out I just want them to be happy and settled. I know they'll get there. Thank you I'll take a look at both.
 
So sorry you lost your little piggie and the bonding and cage situation is stressing you out, bonding can be very stressful. I hope it goes well for the girls. A cage size of 150 cm x 60 cm would be ok for two girls x
 
I’m sorry you were missold a cage labelled as suitable! Would it be safe to leave them in the bonding pen until you get them a bigger cage? Or could you somehow put the cage inside the pen so they have access to it 24/7? That would solve your space problem for now.
 
*CJ* said:
I've currently got a ball of hay shuffling around the run which is quite entertaining to watch. My other guinea pig has never been a burrower.
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Aww. I call them scarecrow piggies when they do this 😂. Glad it's going well.
 
Siikibam said:
I’m sorry you were missold a cage labelled as suitable! Would it be safe to leave them in the bonding pen until you get them a bigger cage? Or could you somehow put the cage inside the pen so they have access to it 24/7? That would solve your space problem for now.
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The cage is bigger than the pen lol. I'm going to sort a new cage. They're only really young so fine for now. They've settled down now, fingers crossed.
 
Hi folks. Quick update. So we're a week in and they're doing okay and cohabiting but my older guinea is still rumble strutting at our newbie a few times a day and keeps giving her sharp jabs with her nose whenever she's close. I feel awful for the poor little one. Is it normal for this to still be happening? I've read it can take a few weeks.
 
*CJ* said:
Hi folks. Quick update. So we're a week in and they're doing okay and cohabiting but my older guinea is still rumble strutting at our newbie a few times a day and keeps giving her sharp jabs with her nose whenever she's close. I feel awful for the poor little one. Is it normal for this to still be happening? I've read it can take a few weeks.
Click to expand...
Yes its totally normal behaviour. It's your older one asserting their dominance
 
*CJ* said:
Hi folks. Quick update. So we're a week in and they're doing okay and cohabiting but my older guinea is still rumble strutting at our newbie a few times a day and keeps giving her sharp jabs with her nose whenever she's close. I feel awful for the poor little one. Is it normal for this to still be happening? I've read it can take a few weeks.
Click to expand...

Yes entirely normal.
The full bonding process takes two weeks but seeing rumbling (and other dominance) will happen lifelong, particularly when they are in season
 
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