Failure to thrive

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Pumpkinandmuffins

New Born Pup
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Meet Zeus. Son of pumpkin and Mr Muffins. Zeus was born 3.5 weeks ago and weighs 138 grams. His 2 siblings weigh 280 and 285 grams. His mom did a great job with all 3 pups but he was born tiny and seemed to struggle to nurse. He has not managed to week like his siblings. Even though he is now bright and alert and gains a few grams daily he only makes quiet little sounds. Pumpkin has since weened the pups. We began feeding Zeus critical care from day 2. If we do not continue to feed him daily he begins to lose weight. We see him eat hay, salad and shaved carrot peels but he does not seem to eat enough volume. He does better if we sit and talk to him when he eats. We just moved his brother in with Mr Muffins after using a bonding space and his is doing well. He is still with mom and sister. The vet has said he is likely ok to be with mom for another couple weeks. We will take any advice we can get. Thank you!
 

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Pumpkinandmuffins said:
Meet Zeus. Son of pumpkin and Mr Muffins. Zeus was born 3.5 weeks ago and weighs 138 grams. His 2 siblings weigh 280 and 285 grams. His mom did a great job with all 3 pups but he was born tiny and seemed to struggle to nurse. He has not managed to week like his siblings. Even though he is now bright and alert and gains a few grams daily he only makes quiet little sounds. Pumpkin has since weened the pups. We began feeding Zeus critical care from day 2. If we do not continue to feed him daily he begins to lose weight. We see him eat hay, salad and shaved carrot peels but he does not seem to eat enough volume. He does better if we sit and talk to him when he eats. We just moved his brother in with Mr Muffins after using a bonding space and his is doing well. He is still with mom and sister. The vet has said he is likely ok to be with mom for another couple weeks. We will take any advice we can get. Thank you!
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Hi and welcome

I am very sorry; struggling babies are one of the emotionally hardest issues to deal with. Has your vet checked his mouth/teeth for potential mechanical issues like misalignment? Otherwise there is likely something major wrong somewhere but it is most likely untreatable if it is a major genetic defect in an organ or impacting the nutrient aborption/processing. :(

Here is our advice for babies that are not thriving although your little one should by now be on a solid diet and be supplemented with adult, ideally hay based recovery formula, which you are doing. So you are basically doing all the right things already.

And here are our rules re. small baby boys:

It is totally heartbreaking because what we can do for babies that have something majorly wrong with them is so limited. You are clearly trying your very best - which is all we can ever do.
 
Hi Zeus you are adorable we are sending you some superstar best wishes from Staffordshire.
We will keep you all in our prayers keep feeding and weighing 🙏🥰
 
Wiebke said:
Hi and welcome

I am very sorry; struggling babies are one of the emotionally hardest issues to deal with. Has your vet checked his mouth/teeth for potential mechanical issues like misalignment? Otherwise there is likely something major wrong somewhere but it is most likely untreatable if it is a major genetic defect in an organ or impacting the nutrient aborption/processing. :(

Here is our advice for babies that are not thriving although your little one should by now be on a solid diet and be supplemented with adult, ideally hay based recovery formula, which you are doing. So you are basically doing all the right things already.

And here are our rules re. small baby boys:

It is totally heartbreaking because what we can do for babies that have something majorly wrong with them is so limited. You are clearly trying your very best - which is all we can ever do.
Click to expand...
This information is so incredibly helpful! It is reassuring to see that because he is under 200 g he can have a full four weeks with Mom before I have to move him. I already moved his brother in with Dad and they are still going through their transition, but doing well overall. Will Zeus be safe at four weeks if he is still under 200 g around Dad? I will make sure to have a hidey that has small entrances so he can get a break if he needs it.
 
Boar trios don't work so Zeus cannot go in with dad and brother. He'll have to go in a side by side cage with the others or be bonded with a different single boar.
 
I'm pretty sure he can join dad and his brother for a while, it's when puberty starts that there will be issues.
I am not the most experienced though so I'll tag someone more knowledgeable @Piggies&buns
 
Wiebke said:
Hi and welcome

I am very sorry; struggling babies are one of the emotionally hardest issues to deal with. Has your vet checked his mouth/teeth for potential mechanical issues like misalignment? Otherwise there is likely something major wrong somewhere but it is most likely untreatable if it is a major genetic defect in an organ or impacting the nutrient aborption/processing. :(

Here is our advice for babies that are not thriving although your little one should by now be on a solid diet and be supplemented with adult, ideally hay based recovery formula, which you are doing. So you are basically doing all the right things already.

And here are our rules re. small baby boys:

It is totally heartbreaking because what we can do for babies that have something majorly wrong with them is so limited. You are clearly trying your very best - which is all we can ever do.
Click to expand...
I forgot to respond about the vet and Zeus’s teeth. The vet has been incredible. He has been watching Zeus closely and the whole clinic is really rooting for him. He tried his best to get a look at his back teeth multiple times, but has not had success. Initially, I thought the issue was something to do with Dental alignment but I have a feeling it is something else. My husband and I are extremely attached to him because we have been hand feeding him from day one and he is clearly very Attached to both of us. He will have to transition and move in with dad and his brother over the next few days so I’m hoping that does not have a negative impact but I can’t imagine keeping him alone.
 
Pumpkinandmuffins said:
I forgot to respond about the vet and Zeus’s teeth. The vet has been incredible. He has been watching Zeus closely and the whole clinic is really rooting for him. He tried his best to get a look at his back teeth multiple times, but has not had success. Initially, I thought the issue was something to do with Dental alignment but I have a feeling it is something else. My husband and I are extremely attached to him because we have been hand feeding him from day one and he is clearly very Attached to both of us. He will have to transition and move in with dad and his brother over the next few days so I’m hoping that does not have a negative impact but I can’t imagine keeping him alone.
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As long as you take him out for feeding separately and brace for some dominance, he will hopefully be OK. Make sure that you put a little recovery formula out for the other boys (you can use it for syringe training actually by letting them lick and suck from the syringe) so their mouths all smell the same.

Also make sure that you have hay in more than one place and nothing where he can be locked in - everything should have two exits. It may be that Dad may not accept him if he can smell something wrong with him. Guinea pigs have a much finer sense of smell. The worst of the hierarchical dominance will come from the baby boy just ranked above him. You will have to sit that out; it should be very short. If necessary, keep him with the most gentle brother.

The babies that need extra help always make for the closest of bonds.
 
Wiebke said:
As long as you take him out for feeding separately and brace for some dominance, he will hopefully be OK. Make sure that you put a little recovery formula out for the other boys (you can use it for syringe training actually by letting them lick and suck from the syringe) so their mouths all smell the same.

Also make sure that you have hay in more than one place and nothing where he can be locked in - everything should have two exits. It may be that Dad may not accept him if he can smell something wrong with him. Guinea pigs have a much finer sense of smell. The worst of the hierarchical dominance will come from the baby boy just ranked above him. You will have to sit that out; it should be very short. If necessary, keep him with the most gentle brother.

The babies that need extra help always make for the closest of bonds.
Click to expand...
Crying reading this! Such a thoughtful response! Wish us luck!
 
Just wanted to follow up. There is only one brother and he was living with him up until two days ago. Will the worst of dominance still be expected of the Brother? So if the Dad and Brother failed to accept him, should I try to separately bond Zeus with his brother in a different environment and leave dad on his own until six weeks after neutering and then introduce him to mom and the one sister?
 
Pumpkinandmuffins said:
Can he not go in with dad until closer to four months? Our ultimate goal is to keep Dad mom and the baby girl and find a forever home for the two boys.
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Yes, he can go in with Dad. At 4 months, the start of the” terrible teenager”:when hormones come into play there can be potential fall-outs, this time is between 4-14 months so you may have to separate either Dad or one of the sons. But until that time there is no problem having two baby boys with Dad

See how the three get along and at some point in the future you may have to get one of them neutered so he can live with the girls, if you find you have a fallout at some point or one live in a side by side cage
 
Please make sure that introduce any guinea pigs always outside the cage on neutral ground so the newbie cannot be perceived as intruder or overreact because he feels like an intruder and is goes automatically on the defensive.
 
Bill & Ted said:
Yes, he can go in with Dad. At 4 months, the start of the” terrible teenager”:when hormones come into play there can be potential fall-outs, this time is between 4-14 months so you may have to separate either Dad or one of the sons. But until that time there is no problem having two baby boys with Dad

See how the three get along and at some point in the future you may have to get one of them neutered so he can live with the girls, if you find you have a fallout at some point or one live in a side by side cage
Click to expand...

Depending on your baby boy, the trio may work out for longer. It depends on whether you get 'carer' companion dynamics or not; they have different dynamics to your normal groups.
 
Something very disturbing just happened. I laid out a fresh clean sheet with a big pile of delicious veggies in the middle, and a 2 way hidey and I put the sibling and Mr. muffins the dad out and the sibling completely ignored Zeus, but muffins had an awful reaction to him. He smelled his bum very very deeply, many many times and then just started rolling him over and over by using his snout to keep just tossing him in the air and moving him and his hair was high up on end. Zeus just kept trying to eat veggies and kept his little head down but I had to take him out. I have a suspicion that Mr. muffins is going to have to wait until next week after March 11 when he gets neutered and rejoin, Miss pumpkin and his little girl, and the boys will likely need to stay together.
 
Baby Zeus will be 4 weeks Tuesday. He weighs 156 grams. His sister and brother weigh 260 grams. He is pictured with his mom Pumpkin. We did not breed Mr Muffins and Pumpkin. We were told they were both females and at first vet visit found out Mr Muffins was a male and Pumkin was pregnant. Mr muffins is scheduled March 11th for neuter so that he can eventually rejoin pumpkin and his daughter. We were able to get the brother and Mr. muffins together at week three and they are doing overall well together. Approaching week four we knew we needed to get Zeus together with Dad and Brother. We learned on this site because of his weight he had until week four. Zeus has special needs and has always been underweight and at risk for failure to thrive but has been doing better lately. We started day two with supplemental syringe feedings of critical care and he continues to get critical care. He does not weak loudly and makes small little noises, but otherwise it’s just the sweetest little thing.Something very disturbing just happened. I laid out a fresh clean sheet with a big pile of delicious veggies in the middle, and a 2 way hidey and I put the sibling and Mr. muffins the dad out and the sibling completely ignored Zeus, but muffins had an awful reaction to him. He smelled his bum very very deeply, many many times and then just started rolling him over and over by using his snout to keep just tossing him in the air and moving him and his hair was high up on end. Zeus just kept trying to eat veggies and kept his little head down but I had to take him out. Should we focus on bonding him with his brother and leaving Mr. muffins on his own until six weeks post surgery when he can go on with mom and sister? It is very sad to see little Zeus alone
 

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Pumpkinandmuffins said:
Baby Zeus will be 4 weeks Tuesday. He weighs 156 grams. His sister and brother weigh 260 grams. He is pictured with his mom Pumpkin. We did not breed Mr Muffins and Pumpkin. We were told they were both females and at first vet visit found out Mr Muffins was a male and Pumkin was pregnant. Mr muffins is scheduled March 11th for neuter so that he can eventually rejoin pumpkin and his daughter. We were able to get the brother and Mr. muffins together at week three and they are doing overall well together. Approaching week four we knew we needed to get Zeus together with Dad and Brother. We learned on this site because of his weight he had until week four. Zeus has special needs and has always been underweight and at risk for failure to thrive but has been doing better lately. We started day two with supplemental syringe feedings of critical care and he continues to get critical care. He does not weak loudly and makes small little noises, but otherwise it’s just the sweetest little thing.Something very disturbing just happened. I laid out a fresh clean sheet with a big pile of delicious veggies in the middle, and a 2 way hidey and I put the sibling and Mr. muffins the dad out and the sibling completely ignored Zeus, but muffins had an awful reaction to him. He smelled his bum very very deeply, many many times and then just started rolling him over and over by using his snout to keep just tossing him in the air and moving him and his hair was high up on end. Zeus just kept trying to eat veggies and kept his little head down but I had to take him out. Should we focus on bonding him with his brother and leaving Mr. muffins on his own until six weeks post surgery when he can go on with mom and sister? It is very sad to see little Zeus alone
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Hi

See how Mr Muffins is on a second meeting and whether he is accepting the baby after his initial shock.

Because he has not actively refused Zeus; it rather looks to me like he can clearly smell something wrong with Zeus but the tossing in the air is not hostile, just the result of the baby being so small. Zeus's reaction is being submissive but not running away.

Once you start this, you need to see it through - either through the whole bonding process or to a clear non-acceptance.
Wiebke

Thread 'Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics'

1 Introduction
2 Pre-bonding
- Quarantine and sexing
- The need for a plan B
- The rule-breaker: Youngsters under 4 months (sub-teenage)
3 Setting up an introduction
- Getting to know each other
- ‘Buddy baths’ – why not
- Scent swapping - why not
- Setting up a neutral bonding area
- How to start the bonding
4 Acceptance phase: Do we like...
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All the best. My fingers are firmly crossed.

PS: I am merging this thread with its predecessor. It is much easier to for us to have one continuous thread in which we can follow all developments and read up/refresh our memories to personalise our repsonses without you having to explain the situation every time; this saves both sides time and effort and allows us to support you to our best. We are not part of social media and do not rely on generating as many new threads as possible. We all also do this for free in our own free time, so we are not always around individually.

Please bookmark the merged thread so you can pick it up again quickly.
 
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