Bramble 'Happy' after Brothers Death :/

Piggies&buns said:
Fingers crossed for them!

Here’s the guide again - Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Totally neutral territory for the bonding (don’t do it in the cage), no hides in the bonding pen (just hay and water), plenty of time (they need several hours in the bonding pen), make sure not to step in unless there is actual aggression and fights.

Good luck and keep us posted!
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Unfortunately we're going to have to do it in the cage, but it is going to be thoroughly disinfected so there's no smell of Bramble!

Bramble is very happy go lucky and not territorial, so on his part that 'shouldn't' be an issue.
 
Storm1974 said:
Unfortunately we're going to have to do it in the cage, but it is going to be thoroughly disinfected so there's no smell of Bramble!

Bramble is very happy go lucky and not territorial, so on his part that 'shouldn't' be an issue.
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Can you block off a section in any room in your house - bathroom, kitchen floor etc - using pieces of wood or anything you have about to block a space off.
Perhaps you could take the wire lid off the cage and fold it up so it can be used to block a neutral area off?
Do you have a bath tub you could put them in to bond or on the shower tray?

Introductions should never take place in the cage - it’s still his territory even if it is cleaned. You’ve got two teenagers so it’s a bit of a double whammy to be bonding with hormones and to then try and do it in bramble’s cage.
Once they’ve been introduced and got through the first hours of bonding then they can go into the cleaned out cage but it’s that point of suddenly finding an unknown pig in his territory. It has the potential for him to feel invaded, no matter how laid back he is, which could potentially mess up from the very first moment what could be a successful bond.

Perhaps Herbie’s foster carer could do the bonding for a few hours and then you bring them home and put them into the cleaned out cage?
At the very least it would be a good idea to take bramble to pick up herbie and try them for initial acceptance at the foster carer’s house.
 
Is there anywhere else apart from the cage? The shower cubicle with the cage grid across the entrance if no bathtub perhaps 🤔 Good luck I hope it goes well 🤞
 
Piggies&buns said:
Can you block off a section in any room in your house - bathroom, kitchen floor etc - using pieces of wood or anything you have about to block a space off.
Perhaps you could take the wire lid off the cage and fold it up so it can be used to block a neutral area off?
Do you have a bath tub you could put them in to bond or on the shower tray?

Introductions should never take place in the cage - it’s still his territory even if it is cleaned. You’ve got two teenagers so it’s a bit of a double whammy to be bonding with hormones and to then try and do it in bramble’s cage.
Once they’ve been introduced and got through the first hours of bonding then they can go into the cleaned out cage but it’s that point of suddenly finding an unknown pig in his territory. It has the potential for him to feel invaded, no matter how laid back he is, which could potentially mess up from the very first moment what could be a successful bond.

Perhaps Herbie’s foster carer could do the bonding for a few hours and then you bring them home and put them into the cleaned out cage?
At the very least it would be a good idea to take bramble to pick up herbie and try them for initial acceptance at the foster carer’s house.
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I don't know! 😢😢
Piggies&buns said:
Can you block off a section in any room in your house - bathroom, kitchen floor etc - using pieces of wood or anything you have about to block a space off.
Perhaps you could take the wire lid off the cage and fold it up so it can be used to block a neutral area off?
Do you have a bath tub you could put them in to bond or on the shower tray?

Introductions should never take place in the cage - it’s still his territory even if it is cleaned. You’ve got two teenagers so it’s a bit of a double whammy to be bonding with hormones and to then try and do it in bramble’s cage.
Once they’ve been introduced and got through the first hours of bonding then they can go into the cleaned out cage but it’s that point of suddenly finding an unknown pig in his territory. It has the potential for him to feel invaded, no matter how laid back he is, which could potentially mess up from the very first moment what could be a successful bond.

Perhaps Herbie’s foster carer could do the bonding for a few hours and then you bring them home and put them into the cleaned out cage?
At the very least it would be a good idea to take bramble to pick up herbie and try them for initial acceptance at the foster carer’s house.
Click to expand...

Piggies&buns said:
Can you block off a section in any room in your house - bathroom, kitchen floor etc - using pieces of wood or anything you have about to block a space off.
Perhaps you could take the wire lid off the cage and fold it up so it can be used to block a neutral area off?
Do you have a bath tub you could put them in to bond or on the shower tray?

Introductions should never take place in the cage - it’s still his territory even if it is cleaned. You’ve got two teenagers so it’s a bit of a double whammy to be bonding with hormones and to then try and do it in bramble’s cage.
Once they’ve been introduced and got through the first hours of bonding then they can go into the cleaned out cage but it’s that point of suddenly finding an unknown pig in his territory. It has the potential for him to feel invaded, no matter how laid back he is, which could potentially mess up from the very first moment what could be a successful bond.
Click to expand...
 
Ok so we have them home and things are not good! 😢 😢

We had to put them into the cage together and Bramble was not happy at all. He started teeth chattering, aggressively rumble strutting (Which he's never, ever done before!) constant humping and hissing at poor Herbie and even pinned Herbie into the corner of the cage. It got so bad we had to put the divider between them! They have carried on this teeth chattering and lots of the whimpering sounds (mainly from Bramble, but quite a bit from Herbie too!) and it was very loud and prolonged! They have calmed down a little now, but still not going near each other, and if Herbie moves nearer, Bramble starts the whimpering teeth chattering sounds again, and then they both start!

Do you think if we keep them separated for a while, they could get used to each other (Possibly?), maybe if we leave them other night with the divider in between them? I just don't like seeing them so stressed like this, it's actually pretty bad and neither one is backing down when they get close to each other through the bars, which I know isn't good!

I'm don't think this is going to work at all, but when we spoke to the foster lady and said about bringing them back if it didn't work, she said "you'll give it a couple of weeks before you put them together though, won't you?" 😩😫 Because the rescue said to put them in the same cage with a divider between them for a few days, we can't exactly say we put them straight in together, but even with the divider this is horrible!

Apparently, though I don't know how true this is, the original owner/breeder of Herbie rehomed him because she couldn't bond him with any of her boys?
But it also could be because he didn't look right for the breed, so I don't know how accurate this is.

Really don't know what to do, it really seems to be upsetting both of them a lot and Herbie even teeth chattered at us when we went near, as if he was saying " I was happy where I was, I don't like it here"! 😢
 
I’m sorry to hear it hasnt gone well.
The issue could be because they have gone into bramble’s cage unfortunately. Bramble took exception to feeling invaded and was not going to accept him because of that.

Ideally, yes, they do live in separate cages to get to know each other for a few days/week (the duration doesn’t actually matter) before neutral territory bonding. It’s not always possible and it won’t actually make them compatible but it can mean a new, scared piggy gets chance to settle in prior to bonding and isn’t immediately on the defensive.

The thing is, even if you have them side by side now, if they’ve taken a dislike to each other then sadly a few days separated won’t change their feelings about each other. You can of course try again if you wish but now you have put them in the divided cage, you cannot just remove the divider and allow them to go into the other half of the cage. They will see each half as their territory and if they both feel invaded it could end rather badly and with actual fights.
The bonding will absolutely have to be done somewhere totally neutral if you try again.

Some boars just don’t get on with other boars and neutering and bonding with sows is a better option for them.
 
Piggies&buns said:
I’m sorry to hear it hasnt gone well.
The issue could be because they have gone into bramble’s cage unfortunately. Bramble took exception to feeling invaded and was not going to accept him because of that.

Ideally, yes, they do live in separate cages to get to know each other for a few days/week (the duration doesn’t actually matter) before neutral territory bonding. It’s not always possible and it won’t actually make them compatible but it can mean a new, scared piggy gets chance to settle in prior to bonding and isn’t immediately on the defensive.

The thing is, even if you have them side by side now, if they’ve taken a dislike to each other then sadly a few days separated won’t change their feelings about each other. You can of course try again if you wish but now you have put them in the divided cage, you cannot just remove the divider and allow them to go into the other half of the cage. They will see each half as their territory and if they both feel invaded it could end rather badly and with actual fights.
The bonding will absolutely have to be done somewhere totally neutral if you try again.

Some boars just don’t get on with other boars and neutering and bonding with sows is a better option for them.
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Thanks Piggies&buns,

I just actually rang the rescue and they told me that we need to give it more time, because obviously Herbie has just been uprooted from his home so he's going to be very stressed and they've never met before, so we need to give it around 2-3 weeks of them living side by side, to give them a chance!

We don't actually mind doing this, IF it works in the end, but the problem with that, is. We have separated the cage and of course, Bramble isn't happy about not having the whole length of the cage to run up and down as he likes, plus the divider doesn't separate the cage (Exactly half way down) so this means that Herbie only has 2ft 8 by 2ft amount of space, which is way too small to keep an adult boar in for 2-3 weeks and we don't have room for another cage!

We can TRY to make some room to fit a spare cage in, but it's going to be very difficult.....Oh what a nightmare! 😫
 
Storm1974 said:
Thanks Piggies&buns,

I just actually rang the rescue and they told me that we need to give it more time, because obviously Herbie has just been uprooted from his home so he's going to be very stressed and they've never met before, so we need to give it around 2-3 weeks of them living side by side, to give them a chance!

We don't actually mind doing this, IF it works in the end, but the problem with that, is. We have separated the cage and of course, Bramble isn't happy about not having the whole length of the cage to run up and down as he likes, plus the divider doesn't separate the cage (Exactly half way down) so this means that Herbie only has 2ft 8 by 2ft amount of space, which is way too small to keep an adult boar in for 2-3 weeks and we don't have room for another cage!

We can TRY to make some room to fit a spare cage in, but it's going to be very difficult.....Oh what a nightmare! 😫
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Keeping them separated prior to bonding is a good idea to give herbie chance to settle, but as I say, it doesn’t change compatibility and particularly if they’ve now got off on a bad foot. It’s all explained in the bonding guide.

A couple of days in a cage less than ideal is fine but if you are planning on it being weeks then you will need a bigger cage for herbie. You still need a third space to try the bonding again though - you cannot try it in either cage.

Sorry, I'm really not sure what to suggest.
Perhaps neuter and bond bramble with a sow? It still comes down to compatibility but it’s generally easier to bond mixed sex particularly as you are dealing with a teenaged boar
 
Piggies&buns said:
Keeping them separated prior to bonding is a good idea to give herbie chance to settle, but as I say, it doesn’t change compatibility and particularly if they’ve now got off on a bad foot. It’s all explained in the bonding guide.

A couple of days in a cage less than ideal is fine but if you are planning on it being weeks then you will need a bigger cage for herbie. You still need a third space to try the bonding again though - you cannot try it in either cage.

Sorry, I'm really not sure what to suggest.
Perhaps neuter and bond bramble with a sow? It still comes down to compatibility but it’s generally easier to bond mixed sex particularly as you are dealing with a teenaged boar
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It's ok we've dragged out the (Barely used) Ferplast 160 cage and re-arranged the room so we can 'just about' fit it in!

They've certainly calmed down a lot, still the rumbling at facing off each other through the bars, but certainly better than it was!

If it doesn't work out in a couple of weeks, then we will consider neutering Bramble to go with a couple of sows!

It's really weird how Bramble has become so much like Bracken since Herbie has arrived, with all the rumble strutting that only Bracken used to do!
He 'was' a lot more aggressive to Herbie than Bracken ever was to him, though!
 
Storm1974 said:
It's ok we've dragged out the (Barely used) Ferplast 160 cage and re-arranged the room so we can 'just about' fit it in!

They've certainly calmed down a lot, still the rumbling at facing off each other through the bars, but certainly better than it was!

If it doesn't work out in a couple of weeks, then we will consider neutering Bramble to go with a couple of sows!

It's really weird how Bramble has become so much like Bracken since Herbie has arrived, with all the rumble strutting that only Bracken used to do!
He 'was' a lot more aggressive to Herbie than Bracken ever was to him, though!
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I’m glad you’ve been able to sort the cage situation out.
You can try covering the cage with a blanket until they calm down and then slowly remove it mover a few days.

His behaviour is about dominance and compatibility (or potential lack thereof)
 
Good luck with the bonding- I've been in the same situation with a room so full of (only two) guinea pig cages that I had to do gymnastics just to change their water bottles.
I hope it goes well, mine all turned out fine in the end despite not doing it by the book the first time round. :)
 
Thanks everyone for the helpful replies today!

They certainly are a lot happier and quieter (Except they are talking to each other now through the bars quite a lot!). 😊 Bramble is still rumble strutting at Herbie, but only occasionally now and there is no more teeth chattering!

Herbie has been popcorning and zooming around his cage and Bramble has been playing around with his treat ball, and just seems his normal self! 🥰
 
Ok, so a little update.

Firstly, we have decided to change Herbies name to Briar.......That's if we decide to keep him after the two to three weeks is up.

Secondly, and most importantly, this is the behaviour we are seeing so far. They have been winding each other up through the bars quite a bit, Bramble has been rumble strutting and being very vocal! Sometimes he will just come out from where he's stood and start really loudly wheeking for a couple of minutes (Or less), and this morning he did this even more so when we were cleaning out Brambles cage (Well a cross between spot cleaning and cleaning out - just removing any wet paper, beds etc., as we do every morning) and we had to put Briars cage on the ground, to get to Brambles cage!
While Briar was on the floor in his cage, Bramble just started wheeking and wheeking out of the blue, and looking down to where Briar was. It was really strange, because it was as if he was distressed that Briar was no longer right next to him in his cage! 🤔

Briar often chews on the bars as if to try and get Brambles attention and he is often staring into Brambles cage, sometimes when Bramble is looking into Briars face through the bars, Briar will chatter his teeth, usually in response to Brambles rumblestrutting.

Generally it's pretty calm in both cages, but I do have a feeling that these two will never be able to live in the same cage together. My husband and I did wonder though whether, as they both get past a year old or so, if they might maybe start to mellow, as their hormone levels drop a bit.
So, maybe they could actually get on and live in the same cage, one day?

Even though this set up for us, is a bit awkward, with having to remove one cage just to get to spot clean/have total access to the other cage, Briar's already been in two different places since he was born, so we don't really want to give him back to the rescue in a couple of weeks, even if we have to keep them separate this way for a long time....As awkward as it is. Also we have to think about the summer, because we bought Bracken and Bramble a massive run to go out in the garden in, so we will have to think about how to keep them separate in there too!
 
Behaviours between the bars are not indicative of whether they can form a bond - interacting between the bars and being able to live together and form a hierarchy are two different things.

In terms of mellowing as they get older - yes boars do tend to do that but you would be looking at them being considerably older 4 years old plus.
 
In terms of the run, I have a divided run for my separated pair. I’ve just cable tied c&c grids across it.
 
Piggies&buns said:
To clarify, with a completely incompatible pair, even once they are older and mellowed, they will still be incompatible and wont be able to live together.
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Yes I think that may be the case with them both, sadly. We wouldn't mind 'as' much if the spare cage situation (Space wise) wasn't such a problem.
 
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