Bramble 'Happy' after Brothers Death :/

[Storm1974]

So yesterday morning our darling Bracken died, leaving his brother alone, but you wouldn't know it. Bramble has been bounding up and down the cage as he usually does, eating tonnes like he usually does, and pop corning when it's new hay time! Him and his brother weren't extremely close and Bramble was always whinging at his brother to 'leave him' alone when Bracken used to rumble strutt at him (Which he did a lot!). But we're still surprised that he doesn't seem to be missing his brother at all and just being his totally normal self, even though, on the other hand, we'd rather he was behaving like this than being all depressed and not eating!

But do you think that this behaviour means that he's now happy being on his own and he won't want any other Guinea Pig friends? We really hope this isn't the case, because for us personally, it's horrible just seeing one social animal on their own in a cage, and also, of course, we do want to have more than one piggie! I also think of the days when we are out for hours, or at night when we're in bed and he's all alone, surely he won't like it forever?

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry for your loss.

No, his behaviour does not mean he is happier on his own.
It’s hard not to put a human perspective on their bond as it was and now his grief in his behaviour but his reaction is rather a normal one (thankfully - you don’t want him in acute pining). He is missing him.

They would have been close and well bonded (it’s a misconception that they are only closely bonded if they snuggle together - if they weren’t bonded there would have been fights and they wouldn’t have been able to be in the same cage together) and although it seemed he may have been ‘moaning’ at his brother it is a normal piggy bond and behaviour. It doesn’t mean they weren’t close.
He is grieving and he does miss him but they also do get on with life - they have to.
Grieving for them is a shorter period than we would have but also he would have known Bracken was unwell and would have gone through dealing with that earlier than you would have been able to do so in this case.

He definitely needs a new friend sometime within the next few weeks.

 

[Bill & Ted]

I’m so sorry you lost Bracken and hope Bramble stays happy through the grieving period, keep a close eye just in case for a while

 

[Wiebke]

I agree with @Piggies&buns .

Guinea pigs have a much, much finer sense as to spotting (most likely smelling) illness than we humans. Compared to other species we are quite frankly pretty head-blind. Bramble would have known long before you that something wasn't right and that his mate was dying. He will have done his grieving before.

Perhaps my own experience with my dad's three years long battle with terminal cancer can help you put it into perspective. You can put your own life on hold for a few month but not for that long. My dad was several times very close to dying, depending on whether a new treatment had worked or not. I even married in the fastest time possible to fulfill my dad's dearest wish for me to see me happy and safely wed - not knowing whether he would be still around in 3 weeks (thankfully therapy #4 did work and bought him another year).
When he finally passed away, the overwhelming feeling was a sense of relief and closure because we all had run the full gamut of all the strong grieving emotions not just once but several times and wanted him mainly to be free of his suffering, especially the enormous pain attacks. We all had had our time with him to say goodbye, had been able to say everything we needed to sy to each other, and we had all done our best to give my dad what we wanted most from us for his own peace of mind to help ease his own journey.

It's not lack of love or lack of bonding but the fact that in a terminally ill one death can come somewhat towards the end of the acute grieving process and is not the start of it, as it is for you. Just a very different kind of journey. Overall, you do not grieve any less, just the timing and the dynamics are very different. Even as a human, you can never tell how you'll react to the death of a beloved one, depending on the bond, the circumstances and how much of the grieving homework you have already done.

Please take comfort from the fact that Bramble is holding up so you have time to get over the worst of your own acute grieving without having to feel guilty about him right now. That is a huge burden off you. Look after yourself in the coming month since you have been given that big boon.
In the long term, Bramble will however need the daily stimulation and companionship from a mate either directly or from a neighbour through the bars.
Our singles care guide contains a practical chapter about how to spot the different ways it can come out when Bramble's species needs for companionship and round the clock stimulation are not covered by you as the owner: Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities

Looking After a Bereaved Guinea Pig

 

[Storm1974]

I agree with @Piggies&buns .

Guinea pigs have a much, much finer sense as to spotting (most likely smelling) illness than we humans. Compared to other species we are quite frankly pretty head-blind. Bramble would have known long before you that something wasn't right and that his mate was dying. He will have done his grieving before.

Perhaps my own experience with my dad's three years long battle with terminal cancer can help you put it into perspective. You can put your own life on hold for a few month but not for that long. My dad was several times very close to dying, depending on whether a new treatment had worked or not. I even married in the fastest time possible to fulfill my dad's dearest wish for me to see me happy and safely wed - not knowing whether he would be still around in 3 weeks (thankfully therapy #4 did work and bought him another year).
When he finally passed away, the overwhelming feeling was a sense of relief and closure because we all had run the full gamut of all the strong grieving emotions not just once but several times and wanted him mainly to be free of his suffering, especially the enormous pain attacks. We all had had our time with him to say goodbye, had been able to say everything we needed to sy to each other, and we had all done our best to give my dad what we wanted most from us for his own peace of mind to help ease his own journey.

It's not lack of love or lack of bonding but the fact that in a terminally ill one death can come somewhat towards the end of the acute grieving process and is not the start of it, as it is for you. Just a very different kind of journey. Overall, you do not grieve any less, just the timing and the dynamics are very different. Even as a human, you can never tell how you'll react to the death of a beloved one, depending on the bond, the circumstances and how much of the grieving homework you have already done.

Please take comfort from the fact that Bramble is holding up so you have time to get over the worst of your own acute grieving without having to feel guilty about him right now. That is a huge burden off you. Look after yourself in the coming month since you have been given that big boon.
In the long term, Bramble will however need the daily stimulation and companionship from a mate either directly or from a neighbour through the bars.
Our singles care guide contains a practical chapter about how to spot the different ways it can come out when Bramble's species needs for companionship and round the clock stimulation are not covered by you as the owner: Single Guinea Pigs - Challenges and Responsibilities

Looking After a Bereaved Guinea Pig

Thank you for explaining that so well again, Wiebke and I am very sorry to hear about your dad and all of his suffering, it must have been very distressing for you all.

I actually enquired today at a rescue that is on FB and a few miles away from where I live, in Wimborne, Dorset. We were worried about how it would work logistically with bonding etc. But on the phone to the lady there, as soon as I said I was in Somerset, she asked if it was Crewkerne (Where I live) and when I said yes, she then told me that she had a ten month old lone boy in Crewkerne who was being fostered, who we could try with Bramble! So I've contacted the fosterer today and she only lives literally two minutes away and we have arranged for Saturday, to go and collect 'Herbie' and see how him and Bramble get on!

Here's a pic of him and he's 10 months old which is a good age, because it's not too much older and he's past the teenage stage!...
Log in to Facebook

I know it's soon, but I really don't want to leave Bramble on his own for too long.

Apparently Herbie is a Californian breed pig, but doesn't have the right markings, so just looks white with lovely black eyes!

 

[Piggies&buns]

He’s a handsome chap!

At 10 months old he is still a teenager - teens don’t end until 14/15 months.
Age is not so much of a factor though, it comes down to character compatibility and all you can do is try.

Good luck for the bonding. Let us know how it goes and we are of course here to help with any questions

 

[Bill & Ted]

Oh good luck, have a good read at the bonding guide in the Guinea Pig info section on green bar. Herbie is gorgeous

 

[Wiebke]

All the best for the bonding.

Here is our comprehensive step by step bonding guide with plenty of pictures and some videos.
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
(contains a chapter on how the teenage months typically run since both boys are still teenagers)

 

[piggieminder]

Good luck!

 

[Storm1974]

Thank you everyone!

 

[VenusSky]

The same thing actually happened to me last year. I had two guinea pigs both aged 5, although they were very different characters they got along so well and rarely fought however I do think they got on each others nerves quite a lot.
One guinea pig passed away suddenly one night, the other was completely uninterested and started running around the cage and popcorning . He was always a lazy guinea pig compared to his friend so this was completely out of the blue for him. He never seemed upset in the following weeks, in fact he seemed to be a bit happier and more sociable than he was before.
Following this, we made the decision not to buy another guinea pig. This was not taken lightly but we decided that we did not want to be stuck in a cycle and that he was unlikely to get along with any other guinea pig.
Currently he lives on his own and has done since November. In this time he has become more active and happy than he ever has been.
He lives inside the house in a large cage with lots of toys and there are always people around to play with him. When I'm not there I usually leave the radio on for some background noise and this helps him a lot.
Obviously every guinea pig is different and I wouldn't recommend this for a young guinea pig as I think it is easier to bond them the younger they are.
Good luck!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Obviously every guinea pig is different and I wouldn't recommend this for a young guinea pig as I think it is easier to bond them the younger they are.
Good luck!

Just to clarify to anybody who reads this later down the line - age is not a barrier to bonding. It’s not the case that it is easier when they are younger - piggies can be bonded at any age. In fact bonding older boars can indeed be easier as they are past the hormones and tend to just want companionship for their later years. (It can be different with sows who can be a bit more cranky!)

We know it’s difficult for anybody who wants to end the piggy cycle, and it’s going to come to all of us at some point but there are ways and means to ensure a piggy has companionship to see out their life without the responsibility of a continuing cycle. Absolutely do appreciate that deciding to keep a piggy single is never an easy choice.

 

[Storm1974]

The same thing actually happened to me last year. I had two guinea pigs both aged 5, although they were very different characters they got along so well and rarely fought however I do think they got on each others nerves quite a lot.
One guinea pig passed away suddenly one night, the other was completely uninterested and started running around the cage and popcorning . He was always a lazy guinea pig compared to his friend so this was completely out of the blue for him. He never seemed upset in the following weeks, in fact he seemed to be a bit happier and more sociable than he was before.
Following this, we made the decision not to buy another guinea pig. This was not taken lightly but we decided that we did not want to be stuck in a cycle and that he was unlikely to get along with any other guinea pig.
Currently he lives on his own and has done since November. In this time he has become more active and happy than he ever has been.
He lives inside the house in a large cage with lots of toys and there are always people around to play with him. When I'm not there I usually leave the radio on for some background noise and this helps him a lot.
Obviously every guinea pig is different and I wouldn't recommend this for a young guinea pig as I think it is easier to bond them the younger they are.
Good luck!

Hmm, hope that's not the case for us! He does seem a little quieter today, but still eating and wheeking for food, just as much!

 

[fluffysal]

He's a good looking little guy. Sometimes I believe these things are destined. When we had to get Tim rehomed, we were told about a lonely boy the next day!
Mischievous Master Boris has always been good for laid back Dignified Sir George. They are so different but they balance each other out nicely. I hope this is the case for you and you also have an easy bonding like I did.

 

[Storm1974]

He's a good looking little guy. Sometimes I believe these things are destined. When we had to get Tim rehomed, we were told about a lonely boy the next day!
Mischievous Master Boris has always been good for laid back Dignified Sir George. They are so different but they balance each other out nicely. I hope this is the case for you and you also have an easy bonding like I did.

Well we weren't told about this boy around the corner from us, I did have to ring the rescue to find out. But it's strange how he is only a mile and a half from where we live, considering the actual rescue is around 45 miles away....

 

[Storm1974]

I'm just sat here in tears this morning thinking about Bracken and then I remembered this lovely, comforting book I once read called 'Animals and the Afterlife' by Kim Sheriden. So I looked up the book on Amazon and started reading the reviews, and then got into reading other sites about animals living on after death and sending their grieving owners messages, and I cried a lot more.

I've never seen or felt any of my animals (Or human family members for that matter) after they have passed, and there has been a lot! But I did ask Bracken this morning if he could let Bramble know that he has a friend coming soon, just to prepare him. I do worry that Bramble and Herbie won't get on, or that Bramble won't like Herbie suddenly being in his cage (Of course we will make it as neutral of Brambles's scent as possible). Also Herbie has had a couple of different homes since he was born, and therefore is understandably, quite shy and probably will be very stressed coming into a new home.....Yet again.

I wonder if that will be a problem in bonding them.

 

[Wiebke]

I'm just sat here in tears this morning thinking about Bracken and then I remembered this lovely, comforting book I once read called 'Animals and the Afterlife' by Kim Sheriden. So I looked up the book on Amazon and started reading the reviews, and then got into reading other sites about animals living on after death and sending their grieving owners messages, and I cried a lot more.

I've never seen or felt any of my animals (Or human family members for that matter) after they have passed, and there has been a lot! But I did ask Bracken this morning if he could let Bramble know that he has a friend coming soon, just to prepare him. I do worry that Bramble and Herbie won't get on, or that Bramble won't like Herbie suddenly being in his cage (Of course we will make it as neutral of Brambles's scent as possible). Also Herbie has had a couple of different homes since he was born, and therefore is understandably, quite shy and probably will be very stressed coming into a new home.....Yet again.

I wonder if that will be a problem in bonding them.

Hi

HUGS

We have a few children's books included in our Grieving guide. If you really struggle, please seek the free support of the Blue Cross pet bereavement services. Pet bereavement and pet loss

Please never introduce piggies inside a cage or a regular territory. They need to meet on neutral ground on even terms. If you take your time with bonding outside the cage (if necessary overnight), then you give them the space and time to work through the worst of the group establishing dominance that the bond is strong enough to survive the move to the cage without rousing territorial behaviours. Make sure that you have a plan B in case the bonding doesn't work and try not to turn it into an 'all or nothing' affair, just giving Bramble a chance at having his say in who he wants to be with or not.

Please also give yourself the time to grieve and become a bit more stable before you try to bond Bramble by postponing the adoption for a week or two. You also can ask the fosterer whether you could conduct a little meet and greet on neutral ground at her home to see whether it is a promising affair or an outright fail (Speed dating at the rescue). You should get an idea within about half an hour. If things are looking up, you will then have to bring back the boys in separate carrier and re-start the proper bonding process outside the cage in your home, where you can then give them plenty of time to become mates in the bonding pen with just a pile of hay, water and a sheet over for the night before moving them into a cage that doesn't contain any furniture with just one exit. Rub a rag over both boys and then over the cage furniture and bedding so it the cage smells of their new mingled group scent.

Rescues (Adoption and Dating), Shops, Breeders or Online? - What to consider when getting guinea pigs

 

[Wiebke]

We also have a very detailed bonding step-by-step bonding guide: Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

 

[Storm1974]

Hi

HUGS

We have a few children's books included in our Grieving guide. If you really struggle, please seek the free support of the Blue Cross pet bereavement services. Pet bereavement and pet loss

Please never introduce piggies inside a cage or a regular territory. They need to meet on neutral ground on even terms. If you take your time with bonding outside the cage (if necessary overnight), then you give them the space and time to work through the worst of the group establishing dominance that the bond is strong enough to survive the move to the cage without rousing territorial behaviours. Make sure that you have a plan B in case the bonding doesn't work and try not to turn it into an 'all or nothing' affair, just giving Bramble a chance at having his say in who he wants to be with or not.

Please also give yourself the time to grieve and become a bit more stable before you try to bond Bramble by postponing the adoption for a week or two. You also can ask the fosterer whether you could conduct a little meet and greet on neutral ground at her home to see whether it is a promising affair or an outright fail (Speed dating at the rescue). You should get an idea within about half an hour. If things are looking up, you will then have to bring back the boys in separate carrier and re-start the proper bonding process outside the cage in your home, where you can then give them plenty of time to become mates in the bonding pen with just a pile of hay, water and a sheet over for the night before moving them into a cage that doesn't contain any furniture with just one exit. Rub a rag over both boys and then over the cage furniture and bedding so it the cage smells of their new mingled group scent.

Rescues (Adoption and Dating), Shops, Breeders or Online? - What to consider when getting guinea pigs

It's ok, I am fine with this weekend, I really don't want Bramble to be on his own (Unless he chooses, of course) for longer than possible.

I don't think we can do a neutral meet at the fosters home, she just said we need to collect him, then do the intros at our place.

For the proper intros, we will probably put them in the pen Bramble and Bracken used to go in while we cleaned out their cage, this pen isn't massive, but I think it will be big enough to introduce them in. Then, we are planning to (Initially, because that's what it said to do by the rescue), put them both into the (Thoroughly cleaned out) cage with a divider in between them so they could get to know each other, without actually being able to touch each other, for a few days, swapping bedding into each others space, so they can properly smell each other. Then we will introduce them properly in the pen after that......

This is what they sent me with the adoption info:
Your personal share link | mail.com Cloud

Also, we cannot leave them overnight outside of the cage, because we have a dog. We were thinking of leaving them together in the cage (Separated) at night.

 

[Storm1974]

We also have a very detailed bonding step-by-step bonding guide: Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Thank you, I will read that again thoroughly.

It's a shame our place is so small that we don't have much available space that we can set up neutral places to introduce them into. Thankfully it's only two boys and not more that we are having to introduce!

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you, I will read that again thoroughly.

It's a shame our place is so small that we don't have much available space that we can set up neutral places to introduce them into. Thankfully it's only two boys and not more that we are having to introduce!

You can always use the bathtub or shower in a pinch. And ask the fosterer whether the initial meeting to test for the presence of a personality at their home before you bring the new boy home.

 

[fluffysal]

My original boys were free roaming and we lived in a small flat. To do the bonding with Master Boris and Sir George we used the bathroom as I considered that the entire lounge was Sir Georges Territory.

 

[weepweeps]

Good luck with the bonding

 

[Bill & Ted]

Good luck I hope it goes well. Your bathroom is an ideal place if there are no knocks and crannies for them to get behind. Avoid anything your boy comsiders “his”

 

[Storm1974]

Good luck with the bonding

Thanks, I'm actually getting very anxious about it, as I do about so many things! I know the day will be here before we know it and I know I won't sleep well the night before worrying about it.

I absolutely hate having a lone pig, I feel so sorry for Bramble and really want it to go well for him!

Another thing I was going to ask. All of our fleeces, cosy cups and bed liners smell quite strongly of the boys (Mainly Bracken) because he was the dominant boar and used to scent mark a lot. We have washed them, but they still smell and we can't afford to go out and buy lots of new items. But as much as we love the scent of Bracken lingering, I don't think the new boy will be as keen.

 

[weepweeps]

I think as long as they have been washed they should be fine.

I get stressed with bonding too. I hope it goes well.

 

[Storm1974]

Well, today's the day.......That we HOPEFULLY successfully bond recently bereaved Bramble with his new 'friend' Herbie!

Bramble has still been acting completely fine and happy since he's been on his own, so I hope he's not going to be suddenly annoyed having someone else to share the cage with again, especially as it's not going to be his brother!!

I have decided to go out with the dog for a walk while my husband does the intros, because I am so anxious about it all, I think it's for the best. Plus our dog is a real loud barker and barks a lot when outside (It's probably best she's not around while the intros are being carried out!), so don't want Herbie getting scared by her barking!

I've asked my OH to video bits of it and also, to ring me while I'm out if he feels it's all going wrong, then I know that by the time I get home, if he hasn't rang, then it's all gone well!

Any animal communicators out there, PLEASE ask these two to be buddies!!

 

[Storm1974]

Sorry reading that back, I meant to put 'hope he's not going to be annoyed with suddenly having someone else to share the cage with again'.
I was going to edit, but had run out of time!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Fingers crossed for them!

Here’s the guide again - Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Totally neutral territory for the bonding (don’t do it in the cage), no hides in the bonding pen (just hay and water), plenty of time (they need several hours in the bonding pen), make sure not to step in unless there is actual aggression and fights.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[weepweeps]

Good luck with the bonding. I really hope they want to be together