bonding problems

[Paopao]

I have been trying to bond my two pig 3 days now start from 10 mins to 2 hours yesterday. They seems really want to live together when they separate and sleep close to each other in the day time. They also sniffed each other sometimes.
But when they actually meet up, Chicory just keep chasing Paopao and Paopao seems don’t want him touch her butt…..and it last two hours last night then I separated them.
Both of them keep chattering teeth when bonding and sometime Paopao will try to attack Chicory when they are facing each other (no one actually hurt)…. Should I give them longer time today to communicate or that’s just means they will not get well
Paopao never shows she want to be the dominate one but seems like she just don’t want to be touched

(Chicory is a neutered male and Paopao is a girl)

 

[Piggies&buns]

Bonding is a one time event - you put them on neutral territory and then see it through to conclusion on that one day.
Chasing is totally normal in bonding. He is excited to be with a girl and she will put him in his place.
Submissive sows will let a boar mount them but dominant sows will allow mounting only when they are fertile.
Is she actually attacking him though or is she just telling him off - if she is attacking then it may well be a failed bond and they cannot be put together.

Please don’t continually separate when bonding if it is going well. You need to put them in neutral territory and then after several hours, if the bonding hasnt failed ie no fighting, then move them to the cage together.
If you put them together and separate repeatedly you are just interrupting everything and stopping them from being able to bond.

Once they are then in the cage together, it then takes two weeks for their bond to be fully formed.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

 

[Paopao]

Bonding is a one time event - you put them on neutral territory and then see it through to conclusion on that one day.
Chasing is totally normal in bonding. He is excited to be with a girl and she will put him in his place.
Submissive sows will let a boar mount them but dominant sows will allow mounting only when they are fertile.
Is she actually attacking him though or is she just telling him off - if she is attacking then it may well be a failed bond and they cannot be put together.

Please don’t continually separate when bonding if it is going well. You need to put them in neutral territory and then after several hours, if the bonding hasnt failed ie no fighting, then move them to the cage together.
If you put them together and separate repeatedly you are just interrupting everything and stopping them from being able to bond.

Once they are then in the cage together, it then takes two weeks for their bond to be fully formed.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Ah ok cuz Chicory was recently diagnosed heart disease so I asked my vet if bonding might make he too excited and he suggested me to do increased time gradually and try more times….
I will do longer time until they seems fully bond today and put them together after that. Should I monitor them all the time or I should leave them alone quietly and check every period of time…cuz I feel it gonna time long time

 

[Piggies&buns]

Ok - repeatedly separating them can actually cause them stress and frustration because they never actually get to see the bonding through properly so that won’t be good for him either.

Watch them for the first 30 minutes to an hour and then you can go off and do other things while the regularly checking on them.

 

[Paopao]

Ok - repeatedly separating them can actually cause them stress and frustration because they never actually get to see the bonding through properly so that won’t be good for him either.

Watch them for the first 30 minutes to an hour and then you can go off and do other things while the regularly checking on them.

thank you so much! Will do it tonight and hope they will bond successfully

 

[Paopao]

Ok - repeatedly separating them can actually cause them stress and frustration because they never actually get to see the bonding through properly so that won’t be good for him either.

Watch them for the first 30 minutes to an hour and then you can go off and do other things while the regularly checking on them.

https://youtu.be/UY4rfWwf5dE?feature=shared
hi I have put them together today but Chicory keep climb on Paopao lots of times and not allow her to sleep, if she trying to sleep he will chase her away. Also they seems fight 2 times. Is that means they failed in bonding or that’s normal. (The link above)
They were doing not bad in neutral place and has eating together and sleep close to each other once so I thought they are good to live together. But after I put them in the cage (all the hidings are washed and tunnel is new), Chicory dominates all the hiddis and not allow Paopao to use them. And he keep chasing her then they fight. Paopao lost some face fur after that…..

 

[Piggies&buns]

Him mounting her (what you describe as climbing on her) is normal and to be expected but it can also go too far and mean the bond isnt working.
How long did you keep them in neutral space?
How big is their main cage?
Do all the hides have two exits?

However you have to determine whether what you are seeing is just him being overexcited to meet a lady and all he needs is time to calm down, and she is actually doing well in telling him off and she is actually ok with it;
Or
Whether what you are describing is actually fighting and a failed bond.
It is so important you don’t confuse dominance with fighting.

Given we can’t see them, all we can do is give you the resources to make the determination so I’ve added guides below to help you work out whether what you are seeing is ok or whether it is going too far and they won’t bond

Bonds In Trouble
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

I have also added Wiebke’s new guide below which will help as well. Section 4 of this guide details

Guinea Pig Behaviours in their Context

 

[Paopao]

They were not fight and Paopao allow him to climb on her multiple times in neutral place…..all fight was after I move them in the cage

 

[Piggies&buns]

how long were they in neutral space?
How big is their cage?
Do all hides have two exits?

So you are saying it was an actual fight?

 

[Paopao]

Him mounting her (what you describe as climbing on her) is normal and to be expected but it can also go too far and mean the bond isnt working.
How long did you keep them in neutral space?
How big is their main cage?
Do all the hides have two exits?

However you have to determine whether what you are seeing is just him being overexcited to meet a lady and all he needs is time to calm down, and she is actually doing well in telling him off and she is actually ok with it;
Or
Whether what you are describing is actually fighting and a failed bond.
It is so important you don’t confuse dominance with fighting.

Given we can’t see them, all we can do is give you the resources to make the determination so I’ve added guides below to help you work out whether what you are seeing is ok or whether it is going too far and they won’t bond

Bonds In Trouble
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs

I have also added Wiebke’s new guide below which will help as well. Section 4 of this guide details

Guinea Pig Behaviours in their Context

Hi there, I just added the link on top, could you have a look. They spend 3 hours in neutral place and the cage is 3x4 cc cage. All the hidden in neutral place have 2 open end but not all in the cage

 

[Paopao]

how long were they in neutral space?
How big is their cage?
Do all hides have two exits?

So you are saying it was an actual fight?

My current set up is like this cuz I thought Chicory might find the sleeping area were too close to each other but still soon when Paopao about to sleep, Chicory will come from the other end and chase her.

 

[Piggies&buns]

They are better off to stay in neutral territory for considerably longer - overnight even. If you move them to the cage too soon then they aren’t far enough into the bonding until you change their territory by moving them to the cage. Moving them to the cage then causes them to restart again.

All hides need to have two open ends.

I dont really see fighting in that clip. I see the grey one go into the tunnel but the other pig is at the end so the one in the tunnel tries to get out but can’t turn around inside it so seems to panic a bit

 

[Paopao]

They are better off to stay in neutral territory for considerably longer - overnight even. If you move them to the cage too soon then they aren’t far enough into the bonding until you change their territory by moving them to the cage. Moving them to the cage then causes them to restart again.

All hides need to have two open ends.

I dont really see fighting in that clip. I see the grey one go into the tunnel but the other pig is at the end so the one in the tunnel tries to get out but can’t turn around inside it so seems to panic a bit

Should I separate them now and try in another day

 

[Piggies&buns]

You can’t separate and keep trying repeatedly - it is not how bonding works. You have to decide if they like each other and are ok together or not.

If they are ok and are just going through the normal dominance bonding process then you must not separate them at all, there is no reason to separate them.
If you separate them then you are ending their bonding, and you never want to separate for normal behaviours. Do note that if she is letting him mount her then she is accepting him which is good.
Starting again another day means they start all over again, and they have to go through the stress of the process yet again. This causes stress to do it repeatedly but never let them actually bond due to repeated separations.

If you decide that they are not bonding, that she is being bullied and they don’t actually like each other (she isn’t accepting him), then you do separate them. But that means that you can never try again and they must remain in separate cages for the rest of their lives.

 

[Paopao]

You can’t separate and keep trying repeatedly - it is not how bonding works.

You have to decide if they like each other and are ok together.

If they are ok and are just going through the normal dominance bonding process then you must not separate them at all.
If they are just mounting and chasing without fighting, injuring or bullying then there is no reason to separate them.
If you separate them then you are ending their bonding, and you never want to separate for normal behaviours.
Starting again another day means they start all over again, and they have to go through the stress of the process yet again.

If you decide that they are not bonding, that she is being bullied and don’t like each other, then you do separate them. But that means that you can never try again and they must remain in separate cages for the rest of their lives.

Ok thank you I will keep monitor them during the day and see if they become better. If still lots of mountings I will just let them separate

 

[Piggies&buns]

Ok thank you I will keep monitor them during the day and see if they become better. If still lots of mountings I will just let them separate

Please do not separate at all for normal dominance mounting - you are going to see lots of it anyway but it doesn’t necessarily mean there is any problem. He is going to mount her for the rest of their lives together, every time she is in season for example (which happens every 15-17 days). It’s not of concern.
Bonding takes two weeks so you are going to see even more mounting during these next two weeks while they establish their bond.

It’s so important that you don’t panic during bonding as you could end/ruin what would have been a perfectly successful and normal bonding. Some behaviours can look rough to us but are totally normal to them and something that they need to go through.

The only time you separate is if you are certain the bonding has failed and/or it has tipped into bullying.
You are likely to see associated behaviours of a failed bond or bullying in that case (losing weight, actual fights causing injury, mounting and chasing which is so relentless that nobody is resting and depression may be seen etc).
If you separate due to a failed bonding/bullying, then you can never try to put them together again.
Bullying goes far beyond normal dominance though but during their first two weeks together it is very difficult to say bullying is occurring simply because you will see an increased amount of normal dominance during that time while they are establishing their bond, and as I have said, you must never separate normal mounting and dominance - you have to let them get on with it.

You can always record them during mounting episodes and even just record them anyway and post links to it here so we can see what you are seeing to enable us to help you further

Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour

 

[Paopao]

I let them live together today and when I trying to feed her, I found there are some bleeding spots around her mouth and fur was lost…is that injury and means they cannot be bond

 

[Paopao]

I let them live together today and when I trying to feed her, I found there are some bleeding spots around her mouth and fur was lost…is that injury and means they cannot be bond

My monitor camera never catch their fighting moment but I seen some bully happened including Chicory always want to block her in the corner and wake her up when she trying to sleep. I guess they can only be neighbours….
Just found more wounds on Paopao