Bonding 3 Pigs Now, One Is Frozen

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oxtinamona

oxtinamona

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hi,
I've decided to try to bond my Penelope with my couple Elvis and Ginger ...

So far there have been two massive displays of chattering and chasing and both females had raised fur etc...

Ginger chased Penelope for a while and for a while it also seemed like both Elvis and Ginger ganged up on Penelope and both were chasing her and she was really scared.

Now the other two looks absolutely fine but Penelope is stuck in the corner of the cage looking scared and she's not interacting anymore and is scared to even pick the food and hay up...
that's not a behaviour I've seen described on any of the forums etc...
she's now literally facing the corner of the play pen and standing up as if she's trying to get out :(


She's chased her again and I caught it on camera ( now uploading to you tube so I can copy link) but she slipped her back quite strongly... well I don't know, it looked bad I'm probably over reacting.


Now Penelope is in the corner again, literally facing it so tightly , with her back to the other two :(
 
She's continually chasing her ... I know chasing is normal ... in theory but she's Ginger cornered Penelope earlier ( I didn't record it) and Penelope jump up high trying to get out ... god why can't none of my bondings work out :(
Is it normal she looks petrified ? As far as I can see Ginger isn't hurting her as such... she definitely nope her bum/back ...
There's no chattering now at all...
what should I do?

 
oxtinamona said:
hi,
I've decided to try to bond my Penelope with my couple Elvis and Ginger ...

So far there have been two massive displays of chattering and chasing and both females had raised fur etc...

Ginger chased Penelope for a while and for a while it also seemed like both Elvis and Ginger ganged up on Penelope and both were chasing her and she was really scared.

Now the other two looks absolutely fine but Penelope is stuck in the corner of the cage looking scared and she's not interacting anymore and is scared to even pick the food and hay up...
that's not a behaviour I've seen described on any of the forums etc...
she's now literally facing the corner of the play pen and standing up as if she's trying to get out :(


She's chased her again and I caught it on camera ( now uploading to you tube so I can copy link) but she slipped her back quite strongly... well I don't know, it looked bad I'm probably over reacting.


Now Penelope is in the corner again, literally facing it so tightly , with her back to the other two :(
Click to expand...

I would recommend to call it off for now and take it much more slowly with meeting the piggies singly. Please be aware that well-bonded pairs are often not happy to accept a third and that he/she is rather perceived as an intruder.
 
Ok, when you say to take it much more slowly ... what do you mean ? How do we approach this?
 
So do we introduce Ginger and Penelope in the pen without Elvis and then Elvis with Penelope without Ginger and then the three of them? Do I do it all in one day, or over few days? I'm at work during week so if that's the way to approach this won't 5 days break in these single meetings affect it ?
 
is there any way you can divide the cage in two,put your bonded pair together and put Penelope on the other side so they can talk.smell and see each other.maybe if that seems ok then try to bond in a run,neutral area in 7 to 10 days time.or maybe you could try to lift the divider for an hour each day,increase by an hour each day,to see how they all react.but I would leave it a week with a divider or another cage side by side before you attempt to lift the divider,or place in a neutral area.it is nerve racking.:)
 

Before this before in the same situation Ginger stood behind Penelope, like in video above but it looked like she was licking pennsus back/bum and then she came over to her side and kinda chased her off but it looked like she kinda wanted to groom her ...
 
IMG_3933.webp
eileen said:
is there any way you can divide the cage in two,put your bonded pair together and put Penelope on the other side so they can talk.smell and see each other.maybe if that seems ok then try to bond in a run,neutral area in 7 to 10 days time.or maybe you could try to lift the divider for an hour each day,increase by an hour each day,to see how they all react.but I would leave it a week with a divider or another cage side by side before you attempt to lift the divider,or place in a neutral area.it is nerve racking.:)
Click to expand...
Yes we can out a divider, we have loads of grids... so we do that and keep them there for few hours so they get used to each other ?

Ginger is now lying down next to Penelope ...
 
I don't know what to do guys... she's just in the corner still so shall we put a divider in?
 
that's a good sign that Ginger has accepted Penelope.i would keep it like that for a week and gradually allow an hour each day,increase an hour each day with out the divider until they are getting on without any bullying.once you have achieved this then place them altogether in a fully cleaned out cage.just observe after that to ensure the dominance phase does not go into bullying the under piggy.
 
Question, Ginger just came over to Penelope and licker her mouth and under her chin ...
The way they normally groom with Elvis... is that bad or good? Is it her way of saying sorry perhaps ?
 
its a long process, more two to four weeks,what you are seeing is normal behaviour.Try not to loose your cool,you are doing ok.just observe.x
 
oxtinamona said:
Question, Ginger just came over to Penelope and licker her mouth and under her chin ...
The way they normally groom with Elvis... is that bad or good? Is it her way of saying sorry perhaps ?
Click to expand...
That is a good sign.ginger is power grooming Penelope,
 
eileen said:
its a long process, more two to four weeks,what you are seeing is normal behaviour.Try not to loose your cool,you are doing ok.just observe.x
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm very confused ... so do we split them for now with the divider and leave them in a mixing pen so Penelope relaxes
And then bond without divider next
Weekend ? Or do we leave them together in the pen now without divider and just wait ?:(
 
she is scared,please can I suggest you put the divider in now,and give them a break,and slowly introduce.it is not good if you are a nervous wreck as the piggies sense your lack of confidence.if you do this more slowly it is more likely to work.:nod:
 
I would put the divider in the cage for a week and leave them alone with the divider for a full week.then gradually allow one hour each day without the divider increase the time slowly each day until you are happy they are getting alone.if you have a rescue near you,maybe you can ask for some support there.
 
eileen said:
she is scared,please can I suggest you put the divider in now,and give them a break,and slowly introduce.it is not good if you are a nervous wreck as the piggies sense your lack of confidence.if you do this more slowly it is more likely to work.:nod:
Click to expand...


Ok. I'll put the dividers in... I hope Penelope will relax as it's a bit upsetting to see her like this... we will try again next week.

One question - will it have to be different place and complete fresh pen? I never can get my head around bonding with the divider and taking it out as never know if I should leave them in the same are and literally remove the wall or do I put them to a whole new mixing pen set up?!
 
eileen said:
I would put the divider in the cage for a week and leave them alone with the divider for a full week.then gradually allow one hour each day without the divider increase the time slowly each day until you are happy they are getting alone.if you have a rescue near you,maybe you can ask for some support there.
Click to expand...
There are no rescues in Norfolk that offer bonding sadly. I'll be fine. I've never done trio mix
So that's far worse than having two in... plus I'm worried that existing couples bond will be affected but so far luckily it doesn't appear so...

So we will put the grids in and remove them each day for an hour or so and then put it back again... all in the same pen yes?
 
You poor thing! I know what you're going through :hug:

Are they living in the pen? If they are, I would suggest making a neutral pen for their run time/introductions that has no ones scent on it.

I introduced 2 sows to 2 sows and it is tense, if you have someone else to help you bond some times you have to walk away for a bit. It's hard as hell but if you're tense and scared (like I was) then the piggies can feel it.

I had to get my mum to watch them for a bit while I had a nervous break down :)) While I was gone they started to get along a lot better!
 
yes/or cage .It is difficult.i started three years ago with two boars from PAH,i was not familiar then with rescues.at 6 months both piggies had a lock on furball fight.one knocked the others front teeth out.so I had to separate them,got both neutered ,and each had wives after 6 weeks.so I had a steep learning curve.its just through reading and experience that ive gained information.
 
eileen said:
yes/or cage .It is difficult.i started three years ago with two boars from PAH,i was not familiar then with rescues.at 6 months both piggies had a lock on furball fight.one knocked the others front teeth out.so I had to separate them,got both neutered ,and each had wives after 6 weeks.so I had a steep learning curve.its just through reading and experience that ive gained information.
Click to expand...

God,
That's sound even worse than our first experience with fallenot pigs ( Ginger was the bully) we went from 2 to 6 but I never regretted it. For one I wished my bondings worked out... well I guess this one hasn't failed... YET.

So the current situation is:
They're now in the mixing pen ( which is neutral ground they live in cages) and I put a divider in. I checked Penelope for any wounds but as I assessed earlier Ginger was only giving out nips, I could see no blood is being drawn ... Penelope is traumatised that's for sure. I suppose with last week's mix wit Presley ( which failed as none of them was submitting and they fought to blood) she didn't see that coming and Ginger is an extremely strong character...
I'm hoping for the best... if not, then so be it.
Tomorrow we will remove the divider for a while and see what happens
 
Cavy Kung-Fu said:
You poor thing! I know what you're going through :hug:

Are they living in the pen? If they are, I would suggest making a neutral pen for their run time/introductions that has no ones scent on it.

I introduced 2 sows to 2 sows and it is tense, if you have someone else to help you bond some times you have to walk away for a bit. It's hard as hell but if you're tense and scared (like I was) then the piggies can feel it.

I had to get my mum to watch them for a bit while I had a nervous break down :)) While I was gone they started to get along a lot better!
Click to expand...

I did introductions on neutral ground ( which is said pen) theh live in habitats otherwise...
it all always looks perfect in writing ... all prepared and neautral, hay piles, beg to distract etc... over glove ready and dust pan just in case ...
you think you'll be strong and definitely not emotional as you've done it couple times before and you know dominance behaviours sometimes appear far harsher than they really are.. so you have that knowledge and it all crumbles down when you have to watch you furry babies be so feisty...
to be fair, I was far calmer last weekend when Penelope and pressie were launching at each other and rolling on the floor before I stoped the bonding ...
I suppose it's because she was running wild being chased and then just froze in a corner, that threw me off.. that's a new behaviour and I never read about it anywhere and never saw it on any of the many many maaaany videos I watched ...

Large glass of wine needed now...
 
Piggies freeze when they're frightened, it's pretty normal for them. I'm sure she'll come out of her shell a bit in time :)

Definitely get that glass of wine down! :))
 
Hi all, just a quick update. 3 little piggies have been in a pen since yesterday evening ... since the. Penelope improved and is actually interacting with the other two... she doesn't seem petrified anymore although there's an element of ' respect' if I may call it so toward Ginger ... as in, she's knows Ginger is the big fat boss :)
Since she's only gaIning confidence now we decided to not to remove divider today but I'll wait till tomorrow ( I'm off luckily) and will do it then ash see what happens. Wish us luck. There will be some videos coming x
 
Bonding is an anxious time for us slaves. I would echo what @Swissgreys has said - you are handling this very well. Just stay calm as the piggies do pick up on our vibes. Good luck tomorrow.
 
VickiA said:
Bonding is an anxious time for us slaves. I would echo what @Swissgreys has said - you are handling this very well. Just stay calm as the piggies do pick up on our vibes. Good luck tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I'm glad
I'm off tomorrow (forward thinking :) )
I gole they'll be ok x
 
@Wiebke @Swissgreys @VickiA
Hi guys,

I need second opinions.
We continued to keep them in mixing pen with a divider in for further two days since we last spoke. It seems ok they laid next to each other and Penelope gained confidence.
After two days ( yesterday) we decided to remove the divide for an hour or so. We changed the blankets and put them in together. At first it look great, running around in train then humping party became. Ginger was mounting Penelope and and Elvis was mounting Ginger all at the same time.
As time progresses and food was eaten Ginger started chasing her .
Not as intensely as first time. Chase happened approx 4, tops 5 times and they were together for approx 3 hrs.
We got back from work some 40 mins ago and we put them together again.
Same, Ginger has chased Penelope few times and nipped her ( or maybe even not nipped her just touched her rump with teeth as hey do( and Penelope is in the corner facing the corner.
I also had them for a short cuddle / lap time yesterday evening ( Elvis and Penelope and then Ginger and Penelope)...

I am fully aware that submissive piggies can be overly dramatic and I know Ginger isn't hurting Penelope physically.

Today looks like she more scared again, in the corner and I think it's because we didn't give them food which offers massive distraction. They have plenty of hay and water and toys, no hideys not litter trays as I don't ant them to get territorial over that...

My impression is that Elvis is more than ok with Penny ( although she's scared of him and runs away when he's near). Furthermore, when Ginger started chasing Penelope he really put Ginger in her place as I think Ginger chasing penny annoys him...

So I don't know now what to do, because again, there's no aggression as such ( short teeth chattering which is normal after all)
Chasing, mounting and nipping. All in all best looking bonding I've done yet Penelope's bahviour is unfamiliar to me and I don't know if we she should stop as she's cornered and frozen again.
Just now Ginger came over to her and did nothing and penny run like mad.
Ginger is an extremely strong character and so is Elvis so not sure if we should stop or not.

I've seen pigs roll on the floor fighting and pulling tufts of fur before I split them and this is on opposite end of spectrum. Is Penelope's behaviour normal ?

I don't want to stress her more than necessary x
 
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