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Dental Blind baby

Eviolus-

Eviolus-

Teenage Guinea Pig
Joined
May 19, 2019
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Sorry if I'm posting too much, it's just that this is the only place I know to go to when I get stuck.

Before I start, I'm working on a vet visit, I have to find a new one because my old one keeps hanging up on me before I can get an appointment booked, when my pig gave birth she had a small albino pig, at first I thought she was a runt but after a day it occurred to me she's blind.
I often have to carry her to her mum when she gets lost, she's developing a small head tilt. Anyway, the point is that when I was giving her a general health check her teeth looked very long, I wouldn't be too worried about that just get cause she's only just started eating hay but they were also different lengths which I've read can be caused by a bigger issue.

I'm pretty sure they're inbred, I assume that's why she's blind but I'm worried that it will cause more issues, not just teeth and sight.

Is there anything I can do to help her teeth and what is it? She hasn't really eaten enough yet for it to be caused by eating more on one side and all of the others seem fine.
Sorry didn't intend for it to get this long
 
Hi!

Is the baby pure white with smaller than normal eyes? In that case, you are dealing with a lethal. Lethals are always white; blind with generally smaller than normal or entirely missing eyes; deaf; and they usually have a cleft with misaligned teeth, which means that they need dental support threatment throughout their life.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/roans-dalmatians-and-lethals-explained.51194/

Please be VERY worried about any teeth that are misaligned or too long (it means that the back teeth are also overgrowing fast from not being ground down properly). Babies start working their teeth in the womb a few days before they are born. They are born with a fully functional dental system with self-sharpening incisors; they do NOT grow into their teeth - if the incisors are not properly aligned and ground down evenly/inwards pointing, then the premolars are growing spurs that will trap the tongue and eventually prevent swallowing very quickly in a matter of days. :(

I am tagging @FurryFriends for you, who runs a dedicated sanctuary for guinea pigs with chronic dental problems, which includes a number of lethal piggies. She is the most experienced member to answer your questions and give you advice.

If she doesn't have the time to come on here, we have permission to refer members to contact her directly during normal UK daytime hours (it is now 8 pm here). She is needs her rest and sleep as much as anybody, as well as time to look after some very labour intensive piggies and hold down a job. The Excellent Adventure Sanctuary – Providing life-enhancing care for Guinea Pigs with extra needs
 
So sorry that you are worried about one of your baby piggies. I am wondering if this baby is pure white? There is a recessive gene that is carried by Roam and Dalmatian piggies that can produce offspring called a Lethal White. These poor piggies generally don’t live that long but some manage very well with the right husbandry. They can suffer from dental, digestion, skeletal problems and can be blind and have head tilts too. This sadly might be what you have there with her.
I’m linking in a lady who runs a sanctuary for piggies with dental problems who has a lot of experience with Lethal Whites, she may be able to advise you better if this is the case x
@furryfriends (TEAS)
 
Thanks for the help x I didn't think she was a lethal white at first because her eyes aren't fully red and they seem a normal size to me but the more time goes on the less she seems to be developing properly, she seems to struggle eating anything that isn't mushed up and her mum isn't letting her feed as much as the others ween off. Is there anything I can do to help support her before getting her to a vet? I try to help her find her mum when I can but it's hard cause as soon as I've led her to her, her mum runs off and she gets lost all over again, I've tried giving her a rodent milk I found online when she wouldn't let her feed but she wasn't interested
 
Hopefully furry friends will come along soon and be able to other feeding suggestions for her, poor little mite, you and her are having a tough time. I’m sure she will be in touch soon, don’t loose heart though. have you tried hand feeding her little bits of grass or small stick shaped pieces of veg? You could try mushing up some pellets with warm water and offer on a teaspoon too
 
Bill & Ted said:
Hopefully furry friends will come along soon and be able to other feeding suggestions for her, poor little mite, you and her are having a tough time. I’m sure she will be in touch soon, don’t loose heart though. have you tried hand feeding her little bits of grass or small stick shaped pieces of veg? You could try mushing up some pellets with warm water and offer on a teaspoon too
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I have been feeding her mushed up pellets but she won't eat veg, I've seen her try to eat cabbage and alfalfa hay but even though she's chewing it doesn't seem to go anywhere, thanks so much for the support
 
Wiebke said:
Hi!

Is the baby pure white with smaller than normal eyes? In that case, you are dealing with a lethal. Lethals are always white; blind with generally smaller than normal or entirely missing eyes; deaf; and they usually have a cleft with misaligned teeth, which means that they need dental support threatment throughout their life.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/roans-dalmatians-and-lethals-explained.51194/

Please be VERY worried about any teeth that are misaligned or too long (it means that the back teeth are also overgrowing fast from not being ground down properly). Babies start working their teeth in the womb a few days before they are born. They are born with a fully functional dental system with self-sharpening incisors; they do NOT grow into their teeth - if the incisors are not properly aligned and ground down evenly/inwards pointing, then the premolars are growing spurs that will trap the tongue and eventually prevent swallowing very quickly in a matter of days. :(

I am tagging @FurryFriends for you, who runs a dedicated sanctuary for guinea pigs with chronic dental problems, which includes a number of lethal piggies. She is the most experienced member to answer your questions and give you advice.

If she doesn't have the time to come on here, we have permission to refer members to contact her directly during normal UK daytime hours (it is now 8 pm here). She is needs her rest and sleep as much as anybody, as well as time to look after some very labour intensive piggies and hold down a job. The Excellent Adventure Sanctuary – Providing life-enhancing care for Guinea Pigs with extra needs
Click to expand...

I just got a second opinion and apparently her eyes are a little small and misshapen, and also I thought only rein pigs made lethal whites (I often forget dalmations exist never mind what they look like) so I had a Google and her mum is a crested Dalmatian... No wonder the vet won't answer. They just sold a whole litter of pregnant dalmations :(
 
I got a pregnant pig from a petshop and I thought she was fine and healthy but one of her babies seems to be a lethal white and then it occurred to me she's a Dalmatian, or might be. I'm really hoping she isn't which is why I'm here.

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That's the mumma pig in question,

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And the baby...

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The others seem perfectly normal to me but I thought all four were normal at first so I'm not so sure anymore.

Just for reassurance, anyone see anything prominently wrong with these two?
20190519_205700.webp
20190518_190617.webp
 

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The2musketeers said:
They look fine to me. I would think they look like American short-hair guinea pigs. The pictures are hard to see.
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Okay Thanks :) it's only because the baby is having some issues, blindness, wonkey teeth, etc. So when I saw she looked similar to a breed that can cause lethal whites I panicked
 
What makes you think the baby is lethal? Plenty of white guinea pigs aren't lethal piggies
 
Ah fair enough, posted at same time. Wouldn't hurt to have a good vet check baby over
 
We've taken in a number of lethal guinea pigs, over the years and whilst they have been blind/deaf, they've led a good life and haven't missed the senses they've never had. Some need ongoing dental work but we have a vet who can carry out the work that is necessary and all our lethal piggies can eat normally. We currently have a lethal piggy who is around 7 years of age, which shows they can live out a normal life expectancy. What are your longer term plans for this little one?
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
We've taken in a number of lethal guinea pigs, over the years and whilst they have been blind/deaf, they've led a good life and haven't missed the senses they've never had. Some need ongoing dental work but we have a vet who can carry out the work that is necessary and all our lethal piggies can eat normally. We currently have a lethal piggy who is around 7 years of age, which shows they can live out a normal life expectancy. What are your longer term plans for this little one?
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Thanks for getting back to me :) I hope to keep her but I don't know too much about caring for lethal pigs beyond it being really hard.
Right now I'm trying to focus on helping her navigate the cage and making sure to leave essential things in the same place so she isn't put off drinking or eating. Will she develop more issues or once we help her will she be more stable?
 
Eviolus- said:
Thanks for getting back to me :) I hope to keep her but I don't know too much about caring for lethal pigs beyond it being really hard.
Right now I'm trying to focus on helping her navigate the cage and making sure to leave essential things in the same place so she isn't put off drinking or eating. Will she develop more issues or once we help her will she be more stable?
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It's hard to say, but you will need to get her teeth sorted, as a priority. I used to keep everything in the same place, but then figured it probably gets boring, so now I change the cage around regularly. It is amazing to see how quickly they adapt to where things are moved to x
 
furryfriends (TEAS) said:
It's hard to say, but you will need to get her teeth sorted, as a priority. I used to keep everything in the same place, but then figured it probably gets boring, so now I change the cage around regularly. It is amazing to see how quickly they adapt to where things are moved to x
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Oh okay :) I'll mention it first to the vet, she's only just figured out the water bottle so I'm not keen on moving that just yet but I'll have a little shuffle so she can explore x
 
Maybe you could shake a bag of treats/food and see if she responds? If not or she is just wandering off or staying 8n one place that might lead to some answers
Eviolus- said:
They seem content :) Just wondering, how can we test to see if she's deaf? I'm tying to get a basis for what extra care will be needed so I can plan for the future x
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Isabella_Loves_Guineas said:
Maybe you could shake a bag of treats/food and see if she responds? If not or she is just wandering off or staying 8n one place that might lead to some answers
Click to expand...
Oh I didn't think of that, I'll try it tomorrow when I give them their veg, she doesn't seem to be deaf but they can be good at hiding it and it may be unrelated but she's the loudest squeaker I've ever heard
 
Eviolus- said:
I got a pregnant pig from a petshop and I thought she was fine and healthy but one of her babies seems to be a lethal white and then it occurred to me she's a Dalmatian, or might be. I'm really hoping she isn't which is why I'm here.

View attachment 113767

That's the mumma pig in question,

View attachment 113768
View attachment 113770

And the baby...

View attachment 113769
The others seem perfectly normal to me but I thought all four were normal at first so I'm not so sure anymore.

Just for reassurance, anyone see anything prominently wrong with these two?
View attachment 113772
View attachment 113773
Click to expand...

Hi!

Mommy is a dalmation, which is a difficult breed because it is a variation of the roan breed. It is characterised by a their salt and pepper intermingling of hair which is caused by gene defect. Any guinea pig showing signs of this intermingling is carrier of a recessive defective gene.
If dad is also carrier of the defective roan gene, any babies that inherit the defective gene from both parents are born blind (with often small or missing eyes), deaf and with a cleft/misaligned teeth. The babies are always white. They are commonly called 'lethals' because without the correct care and regular dental treatment many don't survive long although lethals can live to 4-5 years of life in good care.

This guide here explains it all in more detail: https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/roans-dalmatians-and-lethals-explained.51194/
 
According to your picture of Pepper, the mother, she is definitely a roan gene carrier, so the likelihood of he baby being a lethal is extremely high. :(

PS: I have merged your two threads to keep the relevant information together as it has a bearing on your baby's problems.
 
Wiebke said:
According to your picture of Pepper, the mother, she is definitely a roan gene carrier, so the likelihood of he baby being a lethal is extremely high. :(

PS: I have merged your two threads to keep the relevant information together as it has a bearing on your baby's problems.
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Thank you, sorry for making a mess, I didn't intend for the other to become about the baby, one of the other babies seems to be a carrier and the other not affected at all so at least it's just one
 
I just thought, at Pepper's first check up they suspected she might be pregnant, why wouldn't they tell me she carries a roan gene then?
 
Eviolus- said:
Thank you, sorry for making a mess, I didn't intend for the other to become about the baby, one of the other babies seems to be a carrier and the other not affected at all so at least it's just one
Click to expand...

Since the parents have each one normal and one defective gene, you can get in the same litter babies with two healthy genes (ca. one quarter), babies with one healthy and one defective gene like their parents (ca. half of the babies) and lethal babies with two defective genes (c. one quarter). Any babies with at least one healthy gene will look normal, the way their parents are. It is only the babies where there is no healthy gene to cover for a damaged one that have the problems; grossly that is generally about a quarter off all direct roan X roan breed pairings. Most litters have a mix of healthy and lethal babies unless you are very lucky or very unlucky.

You can play the statistical game by drawing 2 beans out of a sac with red and white beans of the same size repeatedly. Any pair of beans that has one or two red beans is normal looking; any white beans only pair is a lethal. We played that game with red and white lego stones in our biology class, and it went pretty much along the statistics. ;)
 
Eviolus- said:
I just thought, at Pepper's first check up they suspected she might be pregnant, why wouldn't they tell me she carries a roan gene then?
Click to expand...

Many vets are not necessarily aware of lethals, unless they are into guinea pigs. A lot of shops aren't and you can still find the odd lethal for sale from time to time. :(
 
Wiebke said:
Many vets are not necessarily aware of lethals, unless they are into guinea pigs. A lot of shops aren't and you can still find the odd lethal for sale from time to time. :(
Click to expand...

I feel like making a complaint to the store, I nearly bought one of Pepper's siblings as well, its likely they're all pregnant and they all have the gene :( it's sad to think of a lethal pig in a home that isn't aware of them existing
 
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