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Baytril/Meloxaid-Piggie has died

Penelopes mummy

Junior Guinea Pig
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So my poor little piggie Hector who was 5 1/2 had dental issue, front 2 lower teeth were fractured and removed. Vet prescribed baytril and meloxaid, he ended up taking it for 3 weeks. He went rapidly down hill, not eating probably and has since died. My husband has been reading up on these medications and says we should have been given a probitotic with the Baytril and the Meloxaid can cause issues if the piggie has a kidney problem. Neither myself or the vet could have known this at this point but my husband feels really bad that he didn’t read up on this before. But of course we trusted the vet. In future I’m think we will go to the specialised exotics vet. Although even they wouldn’t have been aware of kidney issues. Can anyone comment on the medication info my husband has discovered?
 
I have used baytril before on an old guinea pig before that had respiratory issues and without using probiotics and he had no issues. It can be harsh on the gut though, it is known to be.

I cant comment on the other drug.

Were you syringe feeding ? If not their gut can shut down. Sorry about your loss
 
I'm so sorry poor Hector has died and that you've been left feeling that maybe its in consequence to the actions taken recently. From what you've written, complications due to kidney issues is pure speculation as there was no indication that Hector's kidneys were anything other than OK.

Its so very hard to look back and wonder whether we did the right thing, especially when events like this take place. All drugs have side effects and whenever medicine is prescribed (for animal or human) there will have been a risk/benefit analysis done and a qualified individual will have made the decision that for THIS patient in THIS situation the risks are worth taking for the benefit they expect. The more I see of life, though, the more I come to realise that whilst we'd all love medicine to be a completely predictable science there is so much individuality involved that it isn't exact, and however competent and caring the practitioner they won't be able to fix all the patients all of the time.

Be kind to yourself and your husband, and even your vet. No one can ever know how Hector would have fared if things had been different and you can drive yourself to distraction with the what-ifs. You were taking steps to make his life better, and you were taking those steps because from a place of love. We can't do anything more for our piggies.
 
So very sorry to hear about Hector’s death.
Wondering if you could have done something different is a normal part of grieving.
Please don’t beat yourself up - you did all you could for him.
Hector was a good age and sometimes older piggies just can’t cope any more.

Take time to grieve, be gentle with yourselves and allow time to ease the pain.

Please feel free to post a tribute to Hector on the Rainbow Bridge thread.
 
I too am very sorry for your loss of Hector :( but please don’t beat yourself up. He was an elderly piggy.

It’s true that baytril can be harsh on the tummy which is why a probiotic is advised but I doubt that it was the baytril that killed Hector. I’m afraid I can’t comment on the meloxaid as I don’t know what it is.

Baytril is in fact the only antibiotic that is licensed for guinea pigs and you usually have to sign a disclaimer if another is used.

You are more than welcome to post a tribute to Hector on our rainbow bridge thread when you feel ready xx
 
So my poor little piggie Hector who was 5 1/2 had dental issue, front 2 lower teeth were fractured and removed. Vet prescribed baytril and meloxaid, he ended up taking it for 3 weeks. He went rapidly down hill, not eating probably and has since died. My husband has been reading up on these medications and says we should have been given a probitotic with the Baytril and the Meloxaid can cause issues if the piggie has a kidney problem. Neither myself or the vet could have known this at this point but my husband feels really bad that he didn’t read up on this before. But of course we trusted the vet. In future I’m think we will go to the specialised exotics vet. Although even they wouldn’t have been aware of kidney issues. Can anyone comment on the medication info my husband has discovered?

HUGS

I am extremely sorry for your loss! Losing a piggy in an operation or post-op is always hard to take.

Unfortunately only a proper post mortem examination of the kidneys can find whether this has actually been the case and whether the cause has not actually rather lain in the pretty tricky tooth removal procedure itself, which can push any vet's skills.
Incisors are 4 cm long and run along the upper and lower jaw to the back teeth; their roots are far further back in the mouth than you would expect. This makes their removal a rather difficult procedure, especially if it has to happen in pieces and the operation is taking longer than planned. The longer an operation takes, the higher the risk of a bad reaction to GA and problems with the recovery.
I have lost a piggy of mine in the wake of a abscessed incisor removal by a very experienced vet that ran into complications - and there was no baytril involved. She just didn't cope well post op after a procedure that obviously pushed her small body too far. :(

Fact is:
- baytril can cause loss of appetite in some piggies. It is however by no means necessarily the reason for a decline post-op. Loss of appetite can happen with any antibiotic; baytril is the one that is most often prescribed and that seems to impact the gut a bit more than other antibiotics - but in the vast majority it causes only slightly softer poos at the most.
I have had to nurse piggies through total loss of appetite on other antibiotics more than once, but never had a negative reaction to baytril. If there is a bad reaction, you can always ask your vet whether they will change the antibiotic.

Key to post-op care is syringe feeding support if your piggy is not eating properly. In many cases, your support care can make the crucial difference, but sadly not always. It depends on what is behind the decline.

- use of probiotics: Probiotics are NOT a medication, and therefore NOT prescribed by vets. They are classed as food supplement. Their effectiveness is also scientifically not proven.
Piggies of mine on baytril have recovered equally well with or without them; this experience is mirrored by other forum members.
If you want to do something that really works, opt of really freshly made 'poo soup' (syringing the water in which just excreted poos from a healthy piggy have been soaked) or opt for a course of fibreplex.

- metacam (which is being sold under a number of brand names, incuding meloxaid) is actually much better tolerated in guinea pigs than in other pet species and can usually be given at pretty high dosages in the long term without there being kidney damage. My own athritic oldies are proof of that - they have still to grand old ages like 8 or even 9 years old despite being on metacam for several years. Kidney failure caused by metacam does not happen from just a comparatively short course of medication. We have also in over a dozen years and with well over 10'000 (more like 20'000 piggies) passing through this forum never seen a piggy die, not even from a massive metacam overdose.
Pain medication post-op is absolutely vital, and is now prescribed by piggy savvy vets at a higher dosage than even 5 years ago.

Losing a piggy post-op or during an operation is always a very gutting experience; having had piggies from an age that we now consider medical stone age, I have had my fair share of what can go wrong in that respect, so I feel for you. You have a right to your feelings of anger, betrayal etc. They are normal for this stage although most members usually seek the fault by themselves and experience strong feelings of guilt and wonder where have they gone wrong or what they could have done better. All too often they have simply done the right thing; it has just sadly not worked out.
Vets are neither villains nor gods in white coats. They simply try to do their best with what is still a very fragile small animal and are not always able to pull it off when are are operating at the limits of skill (which are massively exanding compared to old times, but that doesn't mean that there are not limits). :(

But it can be extremely dangerous to come up with some online home research and then propagate this as your gospel without any medical basis for your own case as to what actually has happened. There are far too many DIY horror stories and warnings like that around online. They have sadly cost piggy lives from people who believed them and did not seek the appropriate medical care. Unfortunately these kind warnings then make it into the urban online myth collection where they develop a life on their own. :(
 
Thank you for your posts. I can see reading my original post I have given the wrong impression. I don’t necessarily believe the things my husband read online which is why I came on here to ask your opinions as I know a lot of you are very experienced and I would believe you over things we’ve read on the internet! I can change it or delete it in case others come across it if you think that’s best. I also don’t blame the vet, I just feel so guilty I have a lot of what ifs.
 
I'm really sorry for your loss. It's really normal to look back and consider the what-ifs. Please try not to beat yourself up. I do think it's great to see an exotics vet if one is available, but this seems like pretty standard care and there is no reason to think an exotics vet would have done anything differently. People do sometimes give a probiotic with Baytril because it can cause upset stomach in some pigs, but it very much varies with the pig. For what it's worth, I have never given a probiotic with Baytril because they aren't available here for herbivores (would have to order online and pay a lot of shipping.) None had serious side effects. Likewise, meloxicam is a very commonly-prescribed pain killer and there is no reason to suspect that kidney failure was at play here. Unfortunately, dental issues can be very serious in rodents due to the way their teeth grow. Removing teeth is a major operation, guinea pigs' are meant to be constantly grazing and when pain or illness interferes with that problems can pile up quickly, and they are simply little guys and sometimes in spite of everything, they just don't do well. For what it's worth, I lost even a very young pig (18 months) to dental issues in spite of treatment and medication, so I too have pondered the 'what ifs.' Ultimately it sounds like you did everything you could do for Hector. Sometimes there just isn't a happy ending. :( I'm so sorry. Don't blame yourselves.
 
I am so sorry to hear Hector has died, you did all you could for him and gave him a very good life. Unfortunately those what ifs are part of grieving for those who care deeply. Please be kind to yourself as you grieve for Hector, neither you or your vet did wrong in giving Hector pain relief and antibiotics when he needed it.
 
Thank you for your posts. I can see reading my original post I have given the wrong impression. I don’t necessarily believe the things my husband read online which is why I came on here to ask your opinions as I know a lot of you are very experienced and I would believe you over things we’ve read on the internet! I can change it or delete it in case others come across it if you think that’s best. I also don’t blame the vet, I just feel so guilty I have a lot of what ifs.

The guilt and what ifs are what we all experience in some form when one of our piggies dies. All they tell us is that you are a very caring and responsible owner! They are NOT an expression of you having failed in any way; it is just the way our human mind is wired. We all experience these feelings to some degree when we lose a piggy, but they are generally stronger if an operation doesn't come off, if a piggy dies out of the blue or in an accident or in a long drawn out medical battle.
You have made the right decisions in Hector having the operation and in his post-op care; there is nothing for you to find fault with. Be sad, but do not think you have failed Hector. With other owners he wouldn't even have had a chance; you have given him that. As loving owners we can only do so much, but we do not have any control over the ultimate outcome of any necessary medical treatment. :(

If you find that you really struggle, please contact a free pet bereavement service. Talking is the best thing when you are grieving really hard. All the forum members who have used it have come back with a positive experience.
This link is for the UK; if you are in another country, you will need to google to see what is available where you are.
SupportLine - Problems: Pet Bereavement: Advice, support and information
 
So my poor little piggie Hector who was 5 1/2 had dental issue, front 2 lower teeth were fractured and removed. Vet prescribed baytril and meloxaid, he ended up taking it for 3 weeks. He went rapidly down hill, not eating probably and has since died. My husband has been reading up on these medications and says we should have been given a probitotic with the Baytril and the Meloxaid can cause issues if the piggie has a kidney problem. Neither myself or the vet could have known this at this point but my husband feels really bad that he didn’t read up on this before. But of course we trusted the vet. In future I’m think we will go to the specialised exotics vet. Although even they wouldn’t have been aware of kidney issues. Can anyone comment on the medication info my husband has discovered?
So sorry for your loss. I know the feeling of what if's. We lost little Morag last night. I was syringe feeding and she was on antibiotics (Trimoxazole) for some kind of stomach infection, the vet wasn't sure. She just got weaker though. It's hard, you always think what else you could have done. Take care x
 
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