Advice please - introduction of Finley

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Guinea pigs <3

Guinea pigs <3

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Me again! Sorry to start a new thread but i was hoping more people would see it if i started a new one.

As many of you know i introduced a new pig to Mabel and Dottie today, which seemed to go well this morning. Please refer to this thread for details:

http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1092267&posted=1#post1092267

I cleaned out their cage and put freshly washed vet bed in, a selection of toys (re-arranged). They were all fine for about half an hour and then suddenly there was lots of loud teeth chattering from Mabel and Finley. I heard a hissing sound from one of them (not sure which one) and within minutes Mabel had puffed herself up and lunged for Finley twice, the second time she had a tuff of his hair in her mouth. She seems very agitated, she's still puffed up and is rumbling at me if i touch/go near her.

I've taken Finley out because i was concerned blood would be drawn. They were cuddling up to each other only a few hours ago! mallethead it seems like i'm going to have to pop him back in his temporary cage and try again tomorrow on neutral ground. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! It's such a shame as it all seemed so easy and like it was a successful bonding session! ?/ All i can think is that the girls were happy with him on neutral ground but Mabel did not want him in her territory!
 
I've just found a huge lump of Mabel's fur in the cage too and after checking her over she has a bald patch which looks a bit pink, almost like her fur has been pulled out from the roots :( Finley must have had a go back at her...uh oh.
 
Guinea pigs <3 said:
I've just found a huge lump of Mabel's fur in the cage too and after checking her over she has a bald patch which looks a bit pink, almost like her fur has been pulled out from the roots :( Finley must have had a go back at her...uh oh.
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Maybe take things slowly, have them side by side, nose to nose meets on your lap, put Finley in the girls cage and girls in his get them use to each other. Then have another go at introducing on neutral ground - I think Wiebke waits on signs they want to meet to maybe look out for this too.

Fur pulling - can just be dominance? Did you see what triggered the upset?
 
Oh no! Thats so sad :(

I think Flintstones has given you some very good advice. Maybe they just need some time together in separate houses, just to get used to each other?

Hope it all works out for you and the piggles x
 
I don't really have much experience with bonding sows/boars - but i had the exact same problem when i adopted Wexford (from Vicky at Walsall RSPCA)

My girls were mother and daughter and were 13 months and 8months old and they were all fine in the outdoor run - but when it came to putting them in the cage together all hell broke loose! My girls were nipping at Wexford each time he came near - when i made the decision to separate it was due to Wexford being stuck up the back of the cage and being nipped at every time he moved - funnily enough the only chattering of teeth came from Wexford - my girls never one chattered at him!

I tried the bonding process around 8-10 times - but in the end i made the decision that having Wexford nipped at was doing nothing for his confidence and so i got him a girlfriend of his own (she was only tiny and so she had no choice but to accept him).

While they all live side by side - my elder girls have no interest in him and will still nip at him if i put them all together (they even nip at his girlfriend)

I'm sure someone more knowledgable will give some advice - for me unfortunately the bonding process didn't work - which is s ahme because i know Wexford would love to be in amongst multiple girls - he gotr lots of love to share :p
 
flintstones said:
Maybe take things slowly, have them side by side, nose to nose meets on your lap, put Finley in the girls cage and girls in his get them use to each other. Then have another go at introducing on neutral ground - I think Wiebke waits on signs they want to meet to maybe look out for this too.

Fur pulling - can just be dominance? Did you see what triggered the upset?
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I did the swapping of toys and swapping of cages - but unfortunately this didnt work for me - and i tried the bonding process for around 6wks :( it's definitely something worth trying though :)
 
Sodapops said:
I did the swapping of toys and swapping of cages - but unfortunately this didnt work for me :( something worth trying though :)
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I think some pigs will never get on but I'd give it a good go, my Bette also attacked Milo only when in the cage I had them living on the bedroom floor for a week before putting them in the cage. Bette was a very dominant pig and would lunge and chatter on a regular basis, I made the same decision as you to split them, but Bette even went for my girls. I don't think Maple is like our pigs who appear to be very dominant!

I've been very lucky with my other girls and boys, the fact they where cuddling up is a very promising sign though so maybe the slowly, slowly approach may pay off. Don't throw in the towel yet! x
 
flintstones said:
I think some pigs will never get on but I'd give it a good go, my Bette also attacked Milo only when in the cage I had them living on the bedroom floor for a week before putting them in the cage. Bette was a very dominant pig and would lunge and chatter on a regular basis, I made the same decision as you to split them, but Bette even went for my girls. I don't think Maple is like our pigs who appear to be very dominant!

I've been very lucky with my other girls and boys, the fact they where cuddling up is a very promising sign though so maybe the slowly, slowly approach may pay off. Don't throw in the towel yet! x
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It's a shame because i did all i could - 6wks of trying and things were getting worse - not better! The chattering of teeth came from Wexford - and the more i put them together, the girls only needed to come near him and he'd start chattering - which would cause them to lunge at him.

Due to Wexford's background history - he was seriously lacking confidence anyhow - so allowing him to endure being nipped at each time he came in to contact with them was obviously frustrating/stressing him...

My eldest girls show no interest in him - Wexford and his girlfriend Tulisa are always up at the side of the cage bars looking for Summer and her mum JJ - but ive yet to see them reciprocate this behaviour and they tend to stay away... So no signs they want to meet - even when my two girls are in season they still nip/lunge at Wexford!!
 
Thanks guys, i've just been busily re-setting up Finleys cage and moving my whole front room around again mallethead haha!

I'm definitely not going to give up at this stage, it was very promising on neutral ground and as you said they were even snuggling up to each other. Maybe it was just all a bit too much. I'm more than happy to take it slowly and see how it goes, there is no rush and Finley has been through a lot over the last two days! He was in the girls cage for a while so they will be able to smell him and i've put the fleece that i used during floor time in his cage, they are next to each other and the girls have already had a sniff where the bars are together.

Nothing really happened before she lunged, she was up in the hay loft (which Finley hadn't worked out yet) and she came down and saw him and then i just heard really loud teeth chattering and it went from there. I did feel like maybe i should have tried to stick it out but she clearly lunged for him twice and seemed very agitated, i felt like they needed to cool down a bit. I know they will have to start all over again but i didn't want it to get to blood being drawn and my gut feeling was that this may have happened if i didn't separate. Thanks again, do you think i should try again tomorrow or is this too soon? I'm at work all day so it wouldn't be until the evening.
 
Guinea pigs <3 said:
Thanks guys, i've just been busily re-setting up Finleys cage and moving my whole front room around again mallethead haha!

I'm definitely not going to give up at this stage, it was very promising on neutral ground and as you said they were even snuggling up to each other. Maybe it was just all a bit too much. I'm more than happy to take it slowly and see how it goes, there is no rush and Finley has been through a lot over the last two days! He was in the girls cage for a while so they will be able to smell him and i've put the fleece that i used during floor time in his cage, they are next to each other and the girls have already had a sniff where the bars are together.

Nothing really happened before she lunged, she was up in the hay loft (which Finley hadn't worked out yet) and she came down and saw him and then i just heard really loud teeth chattering and it went from there. I did feel like maybe i should have tried to stick it out but she clearly lunged for him twice and seemed very agitated, i felt like they needed to cool down a bit. I know they will have to start all over again but i didn't want it to get to blood being drawn and my gut feeling was that this may have happened if i didn't separate. Thanks again, do you think i should try again tomorrow or is this too soon? I'm at work all day so it wouldn't be until the evening.
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If you can resist temptation I would leave them until next weekend (your best to pick a day you have time to over see the full bonding process), every evening swapping them over - girls in his cage and him in there's and then on Saturday (if your off) I would let them meet nose to nose see the reactions and all being well I'd introduce again on neutral ground.
 
I am sorry that things suddenly went haywire. Perhaps one of the piggies felt pushed?

I would give them some time to cool off first. Don't rush this part.

When meeting on neutral ground, have it through grids first so you can judge the reaction. I had to go back to square one with Tegyd and Hywel and take it very slowly, proceeding to the next step only once the teeth chattering and yawning had died down.

Please be aware that the slowly slowly process can work, but that some combinations don't always work out. Be prepared to separate as soon as things start to escalate.
 
flintstones said:
If you can resist temptation I would leave them until next weekend (your best to pick a day you have time to over see the full bonding process), every evening swapping them over - girls in his cage and him in there's and then on Saturday (if your off) I would let them meet nose to nose see the reactions and all being well I'd introduce again on neutral ground.
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Of course, i don't want to rush anything and want to do this properly. I've just cut the correx really low on the end where the cages are together so that they can see and sniff each other more easily. Dottie and Finley have already wheeked and sniffed at each other and Mabel has come over for a look. I'll swap them over this week and we'll go from there. Thank you so much for all your advice!

Wiebke said:
I am sorry that things suddenly went haywire. Perhaps one of the piggies felt pushed?

I would give them some time to cool off first. Don't rush this part.

When meeting on neutral ground, have it through grids first so you can judge the reaction. I had to go back to square one with Tegyd and Hywel and take it very slowly, proceeding to the next step only once the teeth chattering and yawning had died down.

Please be aware that the slowly slowly process can work, but that some combinations don't always work out. Be prepared to separate as soon as things start to escalate.
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Thanks for your advice Wiebke. I'm not sure what happened really but my gut feeling was that it was definitely going to get out of hand if i hadn't of separated. I know how many times you had Hywel out on neutral ground before it all worked out so i wont be rushing into anything. I will of course separate if i feel it's getting out of hand, and i've always been aware that this may not work out :( fingers crossed for the next bonding session on Saturday. Do you think it was a good sign that they were ok on neutral ground? The content of my video really does represent how it was the whole time they were there, they even had a snuggle together...did you see the pic? It was so sweet x)


I cant say thank you enough, all of your advice is such a huge help!
 
That was encouraging, but now you need give both parties time to recover from their shock and recoup. Don't push them - it took me over a week after the initial meeting with Hywel and Tegyd, which didn't even last a minute before Tegyd went ballistic. I then put her in a Nero 4 with a platform, so the she cold choose whether she wanted contact or not - and she was in there for 5 days before I felt she was ready to go back in the direct contact pen.

Right now patience is your biggest weapon.
 
I went through something similar with bonding Bellatrix with the twins. I introduced them on neutral ground, and everything was perfectly fine. I had the cage already cleaned, so I put the girls in there. Everything was fine for a few days, then Luna started bullying Bella. The cage itself is 2x4 ft with a 2x3 attachment, so I put Bella in the attachment and blocked off the area leading into the 2x4 cage. They were able to speak through the bars, and I'd let Fermi go in with Bella for little chunks of time. Fermi would go back with Luna with Bella's smells on her. I'd also let them have floor time together. I unblocked the cage attachment and now they all live very happily together.

Sorry I'm no help, but I just wanted to put out a success story ")

Hope everything works out! x>>
 
Wiebke said:
That was encouraging, but now you need give both parties time to recover from their shock and recoup. Don't push them - it took me over a week after the initial meeting with Hywel and Tegyd, which didn't even last a minute before Tegyd went ballistic. I then put her in a Nero 4 with a platform, so the she cold choose whether she wanted contact or not - and she was in there for 5 days before I felt she was ready to go back in the direct contact pen.

Right now patience is your biggest weapon.
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I have plenty so that's not a problem!

HairlessWillow7 said:
I went through something similar with bonding Bellatrix with the twins. I introduced them on neutral ground, and everything was perfectly fine. I had the cage already cleaned, so I put the girls in there. Everything was fine for a few days, then Luna started bullying Bella. The cage itself is 2x4 ft with a 2x3 attachment, so I put Bella in the attachment and blocked off the area leading into the 2x4 cage. They were able to speak through the bars, and I'd let Fermi go in with Bella for little chunks of time. Fermi would go back with Luna with Bella's smells on her. I'd also let them have floor time together. I unblocked the cage attachment and now they all live very happily together.

Sorry I'm no help, but I just wanted to put out a success story

Hope everything works out!
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Aww thanks Kim, it's always good to hear a success story! I was amazed when it was all going so well, i had prepared myself for aggression hence why i was feeling so nervous. I had a tea towel and...ahem....an oven glove on the other hand :redmallethead!

Finley is in the girls run (hexagonal metal) and he's shaking the whole thing with his teeth, he's trying desperately to get to the girls mallethead Mabel approached him earlier and puffed up again with loud teeth chattering but now she's sitting eating her veggies ignoring him shaking the metal grids like mad....i wont be able to sleep with him doing this so now i need to think up a way to stop him from doing it....not to mention him hurting his little teeth! malletheadmalletheadmallethead

Here they are looking at each other:
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Oh noes, i'm so sorry its gone a bit scu-wiff with Finley and the girls. (and theres me thinking boys were bad enough) Big hugs to you and the girls, it can be so scarey when they lunge at one another.

I'd just say try taking the slow approach perhaps building up to spending full hours in the run together, so over the course of say next week allowing them to see one another through the bars, and then spending a few hours a day with one another,perhaps that way might be best?

Good luck hope it goes well xxxxxx
 
Thanks Laura, it was looking so promising too! :(

Only closer inspection Mabel has a small graze to her chin. There is a tiny bit of dry blood there :( not good news!
 
Guinea pigs <3 said:
Thanks Laura, it was looking so promising too! :(

Only closer inspection Mabel has a small graze to her chin. There is a tiny bit of dry blood there :( not good news!
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It was the same with Percy-Roo and the boys, it was peaceful, quite for a good five hours, I turned my back to make tea and next minute there was percy lunging at the boys for no reason whatsoever. *sigh* but not to be downbeat, mine were boys. I think it might just take a while. :) I know when i put P-Roo in with Jennys girls the two less dominant girls were more than relaxed with him but the dominant girl wasn't too happy with him and kept warning him off (which thankfully Percy didnt try to change her mind)

Hope little Mabel is okay, if its any consolation to Mabel, Artie has a huge tooth wound on his nose after he tried to pinch nuggets from Harveys food bowl, and is currently being bathed in antiseptic.

I'm going to keep my fingers and paws crossed here and hope it gets better with time after all its only early days :) xxxxxxxxx
 
I think it's early days yet and there's certainly much more you can try.. The swapping homes for a few hours and keeping them side by side will certainly aid in growing a strong bond between the two girls and Finley.

My bonding failure was just bad luck - i thought my girls were pretty laid back :{ Then again they are mother and daughter and are extremely close, so maybe that could have played a part in the fact that they don't want the company of another pig.

Keep us informed of your progress :) Sending bonding vibes your way :)
 
Finger's crossed it works in the end. Please don't give up though!

I had exactly the same thing when Boris met my girls. Pippa was NOT impressed and she puffed up and they both chattered really loudly, louder than I've ever heard it before. We didn't have any yawining, but both she and Boris lost chunks of hair too.

When trying again with my lot, I put them togther in order of dominance, so Pippa and Boris first, once they'd eventually sorted themselves out (it took about an hour though) I added Willow then lastly Pixel.

Once Boris had figured out that Pippa wasn't gonna give and she was in charge is was pretty plain sailing and they're now all really close.

Adding the last two girls was a doddle after that (Marmite did get chased a bit but it was like Polly has always been there!)

Good luck hun x x
 
AudioHeart said:
It was the same with Percy-Roo and the boys, it was peaceful, quite for a good five hours, I turned my back to make tea and next minute there was percy lunging at the boys for no reason whatsoever. *sigh* but not to be downbeat, mine were boys. I think it might just take a while. :) I know when i put P-Roo in with Jennys girls the two less dominant girls were more than relaxed with him but the dominant girl wasn't too happy with him and kept warning him off (which thankfully Percy didnt try to change her mind)

Hope little Mabel is okay, if its any consolation to Mabel, Artie has a huge tooth wound on his nose after he tried to pinch nuggets from Harveys food bowl, and is currently being bathed in antiseptic.

I'm going to keep my fingers and paws crossed here and hope it gets better with time after all its only early days :) xxxxxxxxx
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Oh noes! Piggies hey, they do drive us a bit mad sometimes! :)) hope little Artie is ok, poor mite! The thing is you can give them two of everything but then they all still want the same bowl mallethead! Hope the boys will be ok after this.

Finley is still chewing at the bars to try and get to the girls mallethead he's shaking the whole thing and making a right racket! The OH is home now and wont approve if he does it all night! :{ Mabel has been over to have a sniff and he's been lying next to the side of the cage. I just really really really hope they can sort out their differences over time! I just need one of them to back down and accept the dominance! I knew Dottie wouldn't be a problem, she is so chilled but little Mabel can be a bit firey, especially when she is on heat..that's why i couldn't believe it when they were all snuggled up together in the box! I know i have everyone's support though, and it's really helped!
 
Sodapops said:
I think it's early days yet and there's certainly much more you can try.. The swapping homes for a few hours and keeping them side by side will certainly aid in growing a strong bond between the two girls and Finley.

My bonding failure was just bad luck - i thought my girls were pretty laid back :{ Then again they are mother and daughter and are extremely close, so maybe that could have played a part in the fact that they don't want the company of another pig.

Keep us informed of your progress :) Sending bonding vibes your way :)
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I will do and thank you for all your support!

Little Piggles said:
Finger's crossed it works in the end. Please don't give up though!

I had exactly the same thing when Boris met my girls. Pippa was NOT impressed and she puffed up and they both chattered really loudly, louder than I've ever heard it before. We didn't have any yawining, but both she and Boris lost chunks of hair too.

When trying again with my lot, I put them togther in order of dominance, so Pippa and Boris first, once they'd eventually sorted themselves out (it took about an hour though) I added Willow then lastly Pixel.

Once Boris had figured out that Pippa wasn't gonna give and she was in charge is was pretty plain sailing and they're now all really close.

Adding the last two girls was a doddle after that (Marmite did get chased a bit but it was like Polly has always been there!)

Good luck hun x x
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Thanks for your advice, it is really appreciated! It can be a worrying time! Hopefully one of them will accept they cant be top pig and will back down! There is still certainly a lot of interest and Dottie is now sleeping next to the cage which she never does normally...Mabel has been over again and there was no teeth chattering from either of them or puffing up :)
 
I don't know how much space you have, but I did introductions in the whole of our living room with lots of boxes with three entrances

Good luck x
 
Hummm, yes i think i might need a few more boxes...they had the whole of our hallway but only really stuck to one end :)) could try the front room next time, we have wooden flooring so i just antibacterial spray everything after!
 
When I got Sophie she really went for Amelia Jane and Peronel. Teeth chattering and lunging. I decided to bath them all together and it really helped them bond. Why not give Mabel and Finlay a bath together?
 
piggyfan said:
When I got Sophie she really went for Amelia Jane and Peronel. Teeth chattering and lunging. I decided to bath them all together and it really helped them bond. Why not give Mabel and Finlay a bath together?
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Thanks Piggyfan, this was my next tactic. I'll bath them all before the next bonding session on Saturday.

So update for today is piggies are all switched around in each others cages. Dottie had a little explore but is now once again chilling in a box of hay, she really does make me laugh at how she takes everything in her stride.

Finley is having the time of his life in the girls cage, it's the first time i've seen him popcorn and my it is funny! His whole hair flings out either side :)) he's racing around, pushing the ball around the cage and has found the hay loft. Him and Mabel have both been chewing at the bars facing each other, is this a good sign? There was some loud teeth chattering and Mabel looked like she puffed herself up but this stopped after a few seconds. Now they are just chewing the bars at each other....how long should i leave them in the opposite cages? It seems Mabel can definitely be a feisty girl rolleyes maybe Finley will accept this over time and back down, i think she just wants to be top pig! Finley seems to be gaining in confidence and where he would take her back off signs it seems he's more confident to teeth chatter back mallethead

Perhaps he is just very excited to meet sows and his behaviour will calm down after a while? Also, i was thinking it has been quite some time since he's been housed with another pig, him and his brother had been living separately for a few months before they came to Vicky due to bickering...and of course there is always the worst option which is that Mabel and Finley will just never get on, and perhaps they will always both want to be as dominant as each other! I have no idea if any of this could be accurate - just my thoughts on the matter!
 
Lol the thought of his beautiful hair moving about is so funny! Like a shampoo advert! :)) I hope it goes well with the bath.
 
piggyfan said:
Lol the thought of his beautiful hair moving about is so funny! Like a shampoo advert! :)) I hope it goes well with the bath.
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Hehe, it's brilliant! He's just tried a little rumble dance at Mabel through the bars but she's just sat and watched him, then he ran off popcorning all over the place :)) She's certainly interested, she hasn't moved from the bars...
 
Fingers crossed for the next bonding session on Saturday, in the mean time i am having maximum piggy cuddles with Finley x)
 
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