Which Guinea Pig should I separate?

[Naiek]

Hello,

Just under a year ago we adopted a Boar (about 2-3 years old) called Bob from my partner's sister. For a few months he was really coming out of his shell like we've never seen before but we always thought he looked a bit lonely. So after some research and asking someone at Pets at Home (research was so confusing and conflicting that we didn't know who to listen to and who not to. And the woman really seemed to know her stuff) we got 2 baby boars (about 8 weeks old) called Freddie and Mika. We were advised that since they were babies, the hierarchy was that Bob would be the dominant one and wouldn't try to dominate the other 2 babies. - Although since then we've found out that hierarchy can change over time and that 2 seems to be the recommended amount of boars in one place, though I don't know if that's more opinion or the general consensus.

All seemed fine with them, they seemed to get alone fine.
Fast forward a few months, over the Christmas period, my partner took the Guinea pigs to her family's but there wasn't much room to set up a temporary cage, so for 2 nights they stayed in a small makeshift cage (about 5-6 square foot) and this of course stressed them out - I don't know if blood was drawn at this point.

When they returned we got them back into their cage and we've noticed a definite change of behaviour. Freddie and Bob have been running around the cage like crazy, rumbling and chattering and squealing, and we were hoping they were just reasserting dominance. Finally we reached a point where we had to separate Freddie from the group when we observed him bite Bob quite aggressively. We set Freddie on the top floor and put a separator so he couldn't get out. We gave it a day and tried to reintroduce them properly in neutral territory. Freddie and Mika were asserting their dominance and they started to calm down but whenever Freddie got near Bob, Bob started chattering his teeth like he's never done before. Bob hid behind the bed for a solid 10+ minutes until Mika found him and tried to play which spooked bob out of his hidey, which led Freddie run after Bob and try to bite him. Bob squealed like crazy
and was so terrified that we decided that they couldn't be together. - Unsure if this time he drew blood as a new wound we found on Bob seemed to have already dried somewhat.

While this would be fine, Freddie has always lived with Mika, and I think he really hates the separation as he's squealing quite loudly every now and again, and is constantly trying to find escape routes (he's always done this wherever he is) and actively trying to pull the plastic walls from the cage. When he's not doing this he's not really doing anything, he doesn't run around or play much if at all. We've read that Freddie might be in a moody teenage phase but since blood has been drawn we've very hesitant to let Freddie back in with Bob once they've calmed down. - We've only witnessed 2 biting incidents but we went all over Bob and we noticed 5 whole bite wounds! Some of them have already almost completely healed but who knows how long this has been going on for, even before Christmas. I'm guessing that they were already fighting and the Christmas incident only brought forward an already existing rivalry.

Another thing to note about Freddie is we are almost certain that Freddie was at the bottom of the pecking order and towards the end he was starting to win dominance, which could have been further fuel to the fire.

Freddie is on the top floor for now, separated from the ramp. About 8 square feet.
Mika and Bob are downstairs, about 13 square feet.

I hope that we could get some advice on what to do about Freddie.
Thanks

Photo is before we put up a separator to the upstairs. But otherwise is exactly the same, save for some objects having moved around

 

[Piggies&buns]

Unfortunately you were given poor information. You cannot keep three boars together - it results in fights. Boars can only be kept in pairs. The failure rate amongst boar trios is 90% and most will not make it to reach adulthood (14 months+) together. Between 4 and 14 months they are teenagers and hormones start to rise and this is when they become an unknown quantity as they will then have their own ideas on who wants to be the dominant pig.
(The cage space needed to even attempt a trio of boars (which we would never recommend) is huge and certainly much bigger than you have. Anything less than a 6x3 c&c would be too small. However, it is more than about space, three boars together hardly ever works out, so no matter what size cage you have, the chances of it working are not good)

Going forward, you need to keep the two who get on best together - whether that is bob and mika or Freddie and mika. You can keep the single pig alongside the cage of the other pair so they can interact through the bars to stop them from getting lonely. Whichever pig is then left alone will ideally need to be paired up with a new piggy. i have added our cage size guide below. We recommend a 2x5 c&c cage for a pair of boys. In some cases a 2x4 is ok but it is piggy dependent - I would be hesitant to keep a pair of teens in a 2x4 and would always opt for bigger.

The issue you have with trying to bond Freddie with a new piggy is that as he is a teenager, then it is a tricky time to try to bond him - it can be done though and it is a case of finding the right piggy. The best thing would be to enlist the help of a rescue centre to find a character compatible piggy. It’s character compatibility and mutual liking which makes a successful bond. The same goes if you decide that Freddie and mika are going to live together - you then can use a rescue centre’s help to find a new friend for bob.

A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
Cage Size Guide

 

[Wiebke]

Hi and welcome

I am very sorry for your fall-out. @Piggies&buns has given you exactly the information links and advice that I would have given, too. Please take the time to read the green links; they help you to understand what is going on and list a range of options of how to best go on from there. Not everybody has got all options available, so it is very much a working out what you can do best in your individual situation to give your boys what they need re. rescue or vet access and any space constraints.

Sadly there is far too much bad information around; guinea pigs are a strictly hierarchical social species and not naturally born animated toys.
I am very sorry that you and your boys have become yet another victim. Once piggies of any gender have been in a serious fight/fall-out, they won't go back together. Normally the loser would have long before removed themselves from the territory and moved elsewhere but that is sadly not an option in a cage situation; especially in too small commercial cages and hutches as sold in most pet shops - hence why fights are then inevitable. This is especially common in teenage boars who suffer from sudden massive hormone spikes and periods of high testosterone, so clashes in personalities that are not carefully balanced and complementary do happen.

And there is no magic wand trick that will change the outlook and personality of any piggy, as little as that works for humans! Not that one can blame the piggies - they are not stupid; it is the humans who callously ignore/are all too often completely oblivious of how guinea pig society works and do not respect it.

 

[Naiek]

Thank you very much for the help. We've decided to keep Freddie separate for now. We don't want him to be lonely so we're thinking about a solution, we don't want to just chuck another baby boar in with him if they're not going to get along.
we're thinking of maybe moving Bob (The oldest) for now and letting Mika and Freddie live together as Bob is used to living alone and is a very chill Boar so he's much more likely to find a viable companion. Though we're still not sure about that as we don't want to keep confusing everyone

 

[Naiek]

Hello,

Recently one of our Boars needed to be separated due to some fighting. More on that here.

We had Bob who's about 3 years old for quite a while, and then Freddie and Mika when they were 8 weeks old (now around 4 months old). Back then we were give some incorrect information about how well Boars can live together which is why we had 3 boars living together.

As the Guinea's have gotten older, Freddie started to fight with Bob, to the point that Freddie had drawn blood on Bob. We have separated Freddie from the other 2, however we don't want Freddie to be lonely. He squeals every now and then when he can hear the other 2 moving, I don't like the idea of him being lonely. We don't want to just plonk another baby Guinea pig in with Freddie, I don't know what the effects of a baby board in with a teenage board can have.

We were thinking of maybe separating Bob, as Mika and Freddie do get along and have always lived together. Bob is used to being alone and he would probably get along with any boar if we decided that he needed a companion. On the other hand we don't want to confused the guys any more than they already are.

As you can see we are very uncertain of which direction to take. Any suggestions?
Thanks

 

[hrsrdr]

Separating Bob wouldn't be a bad idea, especially if Mika and Freddie have been together longer. If you were to separate Mika and Freddie, it could cause more stress on their part, meaning there may be more fights, depending on how they react. As far as a new companion for Bob, a baby boar would most likely be okay, because Bob is older, which would immediately establish his dominance, meaning there wouldn't be any fights. If you want, you could also get a female. If you neuter Bob, just separate him from the female six weeks after the surgery. Either way would work, it just depends on what you're more comfortable with.

Good Luck!

 

[Piggies&buns]

You could only neuter bob and find him a female provided they can live in a separate room to Freddie and mika. Having a female anywhere near a pair of bonded boys can spell disaster for the boys’ relationship, particularly if I have remembered correctly, and Freddie and mika are teens.

It sounds as if Freddie is going to be more dominant. As long as mika is happy to be submissive, then their relationship is fine.

A successful bond is based on character compatibility and mutual liking, age matters least. The piggies have to want to be together with one happy to be submissive to the other. Whether you find Bob an adult boar or a youngster, it’s still based on character compatibility. Getting the help of a rescue centre to find a suitable companion is best. You won’t bring home a piggy that isn’t suitable. If you just go out and buy a baby then you will have no idea how things will turn out when that baby becomes a teen as he will have his own ideas on whether he is happy to be submissive...or not.

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars

 

[Lady Kelly]

Personally I would leave Mika and Bob together if they are bonded and focus on getting a new companion for Freddie. Both Freddie and Mika will be going through their teenage hormone stages and there is no guarantee that a bond between them will survive. Whereas with Bob and Mika at least only one of them is hormonal so hopefully there won't be the conflict.

When you say Bob is around 3 years, do you know for certain? Could he be older? Over 3 years is where I start being cautious over neutering as the risks of anaesthetic increase with age. I think I would be more inclined to take Freddie boar dating at a reputable rescue so he can pick his own cage mate and then you can have both pairs side by side

 

[Lady Kelly]

I have merged your two threads so all the information is in one place