Tallulah
Junior Guinea Pig
Hi, I know that having boars castrated doesn't change their behaviour, but what if they were snipped before their hormones kicked in? Always imagined they'd be too little but wondered if anyone knew
what would happen if...
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Niki
Senior Guinea Pig
I am guessing their hormones "kick in" at 4-6wks old as they can father young at this age & at this age they're far too young to be neutered. 
If it's not necessary to have them neutered then i wouldn't put them through that. It causes too much stress on them. The might have the urge to mate but if a sow isn't there then it wouldn't cause them any fustration!
Tallulah
Junior Guinea Pig
I wasn't thinking of doing it i just wondered biologically. For example I ' ve heard people talk of puberty in boars which i gather must be later than when they can be sexually active as i heard that this is when there can be problems with pairs of boars so therefore later? Just interested really
Niki
Senior Guinea Pig
I think it's a great question & has had me thinking.
You're right problems with boar pairs do generally start when the boars hit the "hormonal" stage around 5+ months.
I've never had intact boars with intact sows so i personally don't know from what age they can successfully father young.
Suzygpr
Senior Guinea Pig
The earliest documented case of a boar fathering a litter is 24 days, which is why separation at 21 days is advised.
Males hit the hormones from 3-15 months, with the strongest time being 6-10 months. Neutering is not recommended under 600g in weight, some vets wait until 800g.
Neutering does not alter their personality so if two boys do not like each other, removing their appendages will not help. Pigs that do not like each other (males, females, spayed or neutered) can do a lot of damage if they don't get on.
HTH
Suzy x
Males hit the hormones from 3-15 months, with the strongest time being 6-10 months. Neutering is not recommended under 600g in weight, some vets wait until 800g.
Neutering does not alter their personality so if two boys do not like each other, removing their appendages will not help. Pigs that do not like each other (males, females, spayed or neutered) can do a lot of damage if they don't get on.
HTH
Suzy x
Niki
Senior Guinea Pig
Thanks Suzy.
I'm no biologist & it's a long time since i studied it at school so does anyone know.....
If a boar can hit sexual maturity at 24 days does this mean his hormones are already raging?
Why is it that a boar can father young at such a young age yet fights don't generally break out until months on?
Is "the hormonal stage" just a term folk use when boars fall out? Do we blame their hormones or is it fact or is it that the boars who fall out are naturally both dominant & it is purely a clash of personalities or is it a mix of hormones & a personality clash?
I say this because ALL boars go through the same growth stages yet some stay friends where others don't.
I'm no biologist & it's a long time since i studied it at school so does anyone know.....
If a boar can hit sexual maturity at 24 days does this mean his hormones are already raging?
Why is it that a boar can father young at such a young age yet fights don't generally break out until months on?
Is "the hormonal stage" just a term folk use when boars fall out? Do we blame their hormones or is it fact or is it that the boars who fall out are naturally both dominant & it is purely a clash of personalities or is it a mix of hormones & a personality clash?
I say this because ALL boars go through the same growth stages yet some stay friends where others don't.
Doeylicious
Adult Guinea Pig
I am not a biologist either, but just musing based on humans to be quite honest.
A human male is born producing sperm. These are there from day one, developing their tales, but it is not until the child reaches 9 or 10 that the pituitary gland says 'right I am sending some hormones Down There so we can start making babies' that start the puberty process. They can't actually reproduce until a couple of years later minimum, and more to the point, they are so busy growing like mad and going squeaky mid sentence to thing about it!
Compare our lifespans (on average) to a guinea pigs, and now compare how useless humans are when born to a guinea pig. We come out needing feeding, clothing, takes us ages to learn how to walk and talk, whereas bubby piggies are quite simply amazing as they are like a takeaway pizza - simply ready to go! So thats about two years of our lives condensed into less than 2 days of a baby piggies (bar the solid food, tho Tulip ate her first pellets at a week old.)
Now think about how quickly their pituitary/equivilant glands (I believe it is the same though as with horses) start telling their hormones to start being able to start the sperm expelling process. 3-4 weeks is not on a disimilar scale. Then you see a slight difference - the babies CAN make babies, if they want, but then similarly to humans haven't really hit puberty and all it's issues just like teenage humans.
Their hormonal/puberty time is a billion times worse than ours as they lack the notion of common sense, largely, and rely far more on basic instinct like 'food now' 'sleep now' 'you smell funny, fight now!' etc. Also it is near impossible to have a matriarch figure to sort it out, as she would get pregnant. So whereas two lads might kick off but then mum says 'pack it in!' or they realise hey, that football is not worth fighting over, lets watch tv, guineas lack that mediator and common sense element and just simply go at it. There is also the issue that both male guineas and male humans think with the organs between their legs, not in their skulls, so when a woman comes along humans, guineas, cats, dogs, horses, ALL lose their marbles and act like idiots, including fighting with their once friends, as at that age the basic desire to reproduce is higher than anything else. This is why having females around at that age of a boar pairing that hasn't been thought through carefully can be risky verging on dangerous. A human example is my own OH 'stealing' me of my ex - regardless of the face me and said ex had been apart a good few months and had both decided we were not at all suited, he went mental and told my OH he better watch out, back off etc etc...fortunately my OH asked him politely to bleep bleep out of my life and we have never looked back, the ex calmed down and now has his own OH to be a caveman about.
I am not sure if any studies have been done or how you would do them without being fairly invasive, but it would be very interesting to see if the boars that do fight have a higher level of the puberty hormones present and/or a higher sperm count. Of course a lot of it is down to personality, and also thus due to early life - I believe guineas from a pet shop, who are not socialised properly/over socialised with the wrong guineas (all chucked in together) and have limited human contact are more likely to scrap than those bred responsibly/in rescues who are carefully paired with an older 'dad' at 3 weeks, learn how to behave properly, and know people are friends and not a reason to get aggressive/be scared.
It is 3am nearly and I may be talking rubbish, I am largely thinking out loud, but interested to see what others think on my musings!
A human male is born producing sperm. These are there from day one, developing their tales, but it is not until the child reaches 9 or 10 that the pituitary gland says 'right I am sending some hormones Down There so we can start making babies' that start the puberty process. They can't actually reproduce until a couple of years later minimum, and more to the point, they are so busy growing like mad and going squeaky mid sentence to thing about it!
Compare our lifespans (on average) to a guinea pigs, and now compare how useless humans are when born to a guinea pig. We come out needing feeding, clothing, takes us ages to learn how to walk and talk, whereas bubby piggies are quite simply amazing as they are like a takeaway pizza - simply ready to go! So thats about two years of our lives condensed into less than 2 days of a baby piggies (bar the solid food, tho Tulip ate her first pellets at a week old.)
Now think about how quickly their pituitary/equivilant glands (I believe it is the same though as with horses) start telling their hormones to start being able to start the sperm expelling process. 3-4 weeks is not on a disimilar scale. Then you see a slight difference - the babies CAN make babies, if they want, but then similarly to humans haven't really hit puberty and all it's issues just like teenage humans.
Their hormonal/puberty time is a billion times worse than ours as they lack the notion of common sense, largely, and rely far more on basic instinct like 'food now' 'sleep now' 'you smell funny, fight now!' etc. Also it is near impossible to have a matriarch figure to sort it out, as she would get pregnant. So whereas two lads might kick off but then mum says 'pack it in!' or they realise hey, that football is not worth fighting over, lets watch tv, guineas lack that mediator and common sense element and just simply go at it. There is also the issue that both male guineas and male humans think with the organs between their legs, not in their skulls, so when a woman comes along humans, guineas, cats, dogs, horses, ALL lose their marbles and act like idiots, including fighting with their once friends, as at that age the basic desire to reproduce is higher than anything else. This is why having females around at that age of a boar pairing that hasn't been thought through carefully can be risky verging on dangerous. A human example is my own OH 'stealing' me of my ex - regardless of the face me and said ex had been apart a good few months and had both decided we were not at all suited, he went mental and told my OH he better watch out, back off etc etc...fortunately my OH asked him politely to bleep bleep out of my life and we have never looked back, the ex calmed down and now has his own OH to be a caveman about.
I am not sure if any studies have been done or how you would do them without being fairly invasive, but it would be very interesting to see if the boars that do fight have a higher level of the puberty hormones present and/or a higher sperm count. Of course a lot of it is down to personality, and also thus due to early life - I believe guineas from a pet shop, who are not socialised properly/over socialised with the wrong guineas (all chucked in together) and have limited human contact are more likely to scrap than those bred responsibly/in rescues who are carefully paired with an older 'dad' at 3 weeks, learn how to behave properly, and know people are friends and not a reason to get aggressive/be scared.
It is 3am nearly and I may be talking rubbish, I am largely thinking out loud, but interested to see what others think on my musings!
Suzygpr
Senior Guinea Pig
I'm no biologist either LOL. I base the majority of my opinions on my own experiences and observations. Facts in books etc help a lot but it's the day to day of piggies that really teach you what they are about.
For me personality and chemistry is the biggest factor in boars and their ways. The hormones certainly play a large part but the pig rather than his gonads are what makes a pairing work or not work.
The boar dating has taught me a lot about how boars work. I have lots of pigs, bang in the middle of their hormonal stage - Rollie is a prime example. He came in with as part of a trio. He was constantly wound up and nippy with the other two and they were all bickering, after a couple of days observing them I separated Rollie. The pair stopped bickering with each other and calmed down straight away. Rollie was then part of the boar dating service. He was not doing too well at that either, constantly trying to hump or fight, usually both, rarely getting past a nose to nose meeting without teeth chattering. He was here for a couple of months - everybody wanted him as he was so cute and had a lovely personality with people, but he was proving to be impossible to pair up.
Then came Fluffy, a big pig who had lost his partner. Their nose to nose was just happy chatting and nudges, their first hour in the bonding pen was lots of humping - by both with no aggression at all. After an hour they chilled out and that was that - they fell in love. Rollie was 9 months old, just about the worst time to try to bond and he had been difficult with every male he'd met but when the personality and chemistry was just right it worked, just like that - I can only describe it as love.
From over 100 bondings I have failed with some, but not many. It can takes months for the right pigs to meet as I have only the pigs that come to the rescue to try but in the end all but 8 have met someone they like. Some pairings do breakdown over time, and some of the boys here have never met someone they like, but they do have neighbours they get on with but won't live with.
As Doey has pointed out babies that are 'Uncled' are better behaved - generally. The babies born here that move in with Uncle JohnnyPig do tend to behave better and bond more easily as they have learnt how to behave with other males, with a dominant male that is gentle and kind. This doesn't prevent the ones with the personality of a total git from being a pain to bond - Jackson is one of the worst I've had. Born here to a large litter, so siblings to grow up with, moved in with Johnny at 3 weeks, all lovely boys together. At 6 weeks he was challenging Johnny and would not back down, he got a nip to the face in the end and it's the only time I have known Johnny to discipline a baby so Jackson must have really provoked him. This still didn't get through to Jackson and he continued to try to dominate Johnny, who weighs over 1500g and Jackson was 350g! He was separated from the babies and is still alone - though his last bonding went better than any other and I think his hormones are ending earlier than usual as well as starting far earlier. He is now 8 months.
In conclusion I think it's the chemistry and personality mix of males that make a pairing work or not work, hormones make it harder during the strongest months but even the most aggressive male can meet the right pig in the end.
Suzy x
For me personality and chemistry is the biggest factor in boars and their ways. The hormones certainly play a large part but the pig rather than his gonads are what makes a pairing work or not work.
The boar dating has taught me a lot about how boars work. I have lots of pigs, bang in the middle of their hormonal stage - Rollie is a prime example. He came in with as part of a trio. He was constantly wound up and nippy with the other two and they were all bickering, after a couple of days observing them I separated Rollie. The pair stopped bickering with each other and calmed down straight away. Rollie was then part of the boar dating service. He was not doing too well at that either, constantly trying to hump or fight, usually both, rarely getting past a nose to nose meeting without teeth chattering. He was here for a couple of months - everybody wanted him as he was so cute and had a lovely personality with people, but he was proving to be impossible to pair up.
Then came Fluffy, a big pig who had lost his partner. Their nose to nose was just happy chatting and nudges, their first hour in the bonding pen was lots of humping - by both with no aggression at all. After an hour they chilled out and that was that - they fell in love. Rollie was 9 months old, just about the worst time to try to bond and he had been difficult with every male he'd met but when the personality and chemistry was just right it worked, just like that - I can only describe it as love.
From over 100 bondings I have failed with some, but not many. It can takes months for the right pigs to meet as I have only the pigs that come to the rescue to try but in the end all but 8 have met someone they like. Some pairings do breakdown over time, and some of the boys here have never met someone they like, but they do have neighbours they get on with but won't live with.
As Doey has pointed out babies that are 'Uncled' are better behaved - generally. The babies born here that move in with Uncle JohnnyPig do tend to behave better and bond more easily as they have learnt how to behave with other males, with a dominant male that is gentle and kind. This doesn't prevent the ones with the personality of a total git from being a pain to bond - Jackson is one of the worst I've had. Born here to a large litter, so siblings to grow up with, moved in with Johnny at 3 weeks, all lovely boys together. At 6 weeks he was challenging Johnny and would not back down, he got a nip to the face in the end and it's the only time I have known Johnny to discipline a baby so Jackson must have really provoked him. This still didn't get through to Jackson and he continued to try to dominate Johnny, who weighs over 1500g and Jackson was 350g! He was separated from the babies and is still alone - though his last bonding went better than any other and I think his hormones are ending earlier than usual as well as starting far earlier. He is now 8 months.
In conclusion I think it's the chemistry and personality mix of males that make a pairing work or not work, hormones make it harder during the strongest months but even the most aggressive male can meet the right pig in the end.
Suzy x
Tallulah
Junior Guinea Pig
Well I see what you mean about comparing humans and guineas, but humans don't produce sperm until puberty, it's almost the opposite of guineas, they are sexually capable before getting secondary sex characteristics, my boars at nearly four months are certainly capable but not nearly as boarish behaviour or looks wise as an older boar. It is interesting, but then as you say must be more personality than hormones.
Does still make me wonder, if it were safe to castrate boars at a much earlier age, whilst they would still have urges would they remain like younger boars in disposition and live happily boars and sows together without fighting. Since three week old boars can successsfully father a litter but in my experiences in the past where it was recommended to separate them later than that, whilst they would happily strut and flirt with their sisters they would never fight over them.
Does still make me wonder, if it were safe to castrate boars at a much earlier age, whilst they would still have urges would they remain like younger boars in disposition and live happily boars and sows together without fighting. Since three week old boars can successsfully father a litter but in my experiences in the past where it was recommended to separate them later than that, whilst they would happily strut and flirt with their sisters they would never fight over them.
Suzygpr
Senior Guinea Pig
There are hormone implants available for boars now as an alternative to castration, they last upto 2 yrs. I've not had any experience with them but I would be very interested to hear from anyone that has or intends to try them.
Suzy x
Suzy x
Niki
Senior Guinea Pig
I've found this thread really interesting especially as years ago i had 4 boys living together & thought nothing of it but since then have struggled to keep a pair together.
I've had a 3 week old baby with an older boy (they chose one another) but when baby grew up the fighting started & a 5wk old baby with an adult (they also chose one another) but i do think the adult boars were too dominant.
Have to say i loved reading your boys' stories Suzy & the pic of Rollie & Fluffy speaks volumes x) & Jackson has "the look"
I've had a 3 week old baby with an older boy (they chose one another) but when baby grew up the fighting started & a 5wk old baby with an adult (they also chose one another) but i do think the adult boars were too dominant.
Have to say i loved reading your boys' stories Suzy & the pic of Rollie & Fluffy speaks volumes x) & Jackson has "the look"
If a boar was castrated too soon, would this not stunt their development, like they would sort of stay the age, mentally, that they were neutered at? Hormones trigger the chemical reactions that stimulate different behaviours in the brain, so would it not have an effect on emotional and intellectual development?
I'm asking lol just in case anybody knows the answer?xox
I'm asking lol just in case anybody knows the answer?xox
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