What could I have done to prevent bladder stone?

[IBS]

Hello! I just lost a 2 year old male guinea pig and I am wondering what I could have done to prevent his death so I can better care for my other guinea pigs. Please be kind as I am still blaming myself and trying to get over it.
So here is what happened: I got him in June 2021 from another person and I got his cage mate from a rescue two weeks later. His cage mate was a dominant guinea pig but there was never blood drawn. They were able to live alongside each other, although his cage mate always occasionally chased him and tried to mount him, which we assume was normal behavior. When they were first housed together he was 980g. He lost and gained some weight after he got his cage mate. I took him for a vet examination and no issue was detected by the vet. Around October 2021, I noticed that he would stay in one place for a long time without moving. But his cage mate was not actively bullying him and he was eating and pooping normally and did not lose weight so I did not take him to the vet. He lost 100g of weight in January and I took him to the vet, who said that he might not get enough food due to his cage mate bullying him. He told me to separate them, prescribed me vitamin C supplement for two weeks and told me to feed him two cups of pellets twice every day and a lot of parsley, cilantro and romaine lettuce. I was not really comfortable giving him that much pellets so I gave him one cup of pellets daily and reasonable amount of cilantro and lettuce, in addition to bell pepper (he used to get just the bell pepper daily) and the VC supplement. He picked up some weight immediately (50-100g). One week into treatment I noticed him producing very huge poops. I looked online and stopped the vegetables for a day and he then pooped normally. The treatment was for 2 weeks and he gained around 100g weight. One week after the treatment, I noticed him on his belly one morning and barely eating or drinking, so I rushed him to the vet. After an x-ray, he was diagnosed with bladder stone and kidney infection and minor bronchitis. He passed away 3 hours after the emergency vet.
I was wondering what I could have done to prevent this:

1. From a daily care perspective, what could I have done? I feed him and his cage mate jointly 1/4 cups of pellets and unlimited hay and one green bell pepper. They get romaine lettuce less than once every week. He always has access to clean water. Could it have been the case that he was intimidated by his cage mate to drink enough water or exercise even if his cage mate was not actively bully him?
2. Could I have discovered the problem sooner? I am guessing that the bladder stone formed a long time ago which cased him to be reluctant to move. I took him in when I noticed the weight loss but it also seems that the bladder stone could not have been easily diagnosed without an x-ray. He was very active in eating his daily veggies till his last day. Should I have requested an x-ray examination immediately?
3. Should I have given him 4 cups of pellets and a lot of calcium-rich vegetables as the vet said? My understanding is that they would worsen the bladder stone (although at that time we did not know he had the bladder stone).

Thank you in advance! And please be nice

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m so so sorry for your loss.
We are a friendly forum and will support you.
Please do not blame yourself. You could not have known there was a bladder stone forming. Often there are signs such as blood or pain when urinating/pooping. You don’t report any of these and weight loss in itself can occur i such a lot of issues.
An issue with the relationship can cause weight loss, but it should not be the first thing which comes to mind - medical issues should be, with bond issues being looked at once medical has been ruled out.
It sounds as if their relationship was fine. Chasing and other dominance behaviours are completely normal and not A reason to separate them. It’s what boars do and does not mean bullying.

Having had an x ray sooner does not necessarily mean the outcome would have been any different. Surgery can be done to remove a bladder stone (advisable in boars as stones, if they try to pass them, can become stuck in their urethra) but it doesn’t mean surgery is advisable in every situation particularly if there were other medical issues which may prevent it. Also, you need an experienced and piggy knowledgeable vet to carry out such a surgery.

There is a genetic element to a piggy’s predisposition to bladder stones and of course there is nothing you can do about that. All we can do as owners is control the diet but at times and with the genetic element in play, even controlling the diet may not be enough.

In terms of diet, you are right, a lot of calcium is not good (too little also can cause problems and throw off the calcium balance). Therefore, the sample diet in this guide can help to get that balance

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Pellets contain a lot of calcium and must be kept limited at all times - just one tablespoon per pig per day only. Ensuring pellets are grain free and low calcium (don’t contain alfalfa/Lucerne), giving even less pellets or cutting pellets out completely when there are bladder problems is advisable. But it is important to note that a week of to many pellets won’t have caused the bladder stone - the formation of the stone would have started long before that.
The vet didn’t give you good diet advice and It’s good you didn’t follow the vets advice of four cups per day but even one cup of pellets per day is too much. Giving four cups of pellets per day would be a huge problem not only for the risk of too much calcium intake but that amount of pellets would stop him from eating enough hay - hay is the most important part of the diet. Longer term reduced hay intake due to excessive pellets would lead to gut problems, dental problems and obesity.
High calcium veg such as parsley, kale and spinach should also be kept limited and not feed any more than once per week. Filtering drinking water is also advisable where a person lives in a hard water area.
A good sample of daily veg is lettuce, cilantro, bell pepper and cucumber, and a green bean. These provide a balance of essential nutrients and vitamin c needed daily. Piggies with a good balanced diet don’t need supplementary vitamin c.
Of course, hay needs to be provided in unlimited amounts every day and pellets, as mentioned, is just one tablespoon per pig per day.

Please be kind to yourself

 

[weepweeps]

I’m sorry you lost your loved piggy. Please don’t blame yourself. Piggies hide their illnesses very well and by the time you notice something is wrong it’s likely they have been ill for a while. You took your piggy to the vets as soon as you were aware something was not right. That’s all any of us can do. Take care.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi and welcome

BIG HUGS

You have done the right thing, seeing a vet as soon as you were sure that something was not right.
We all experience feelings of failure and guilt or intense soul-searching at the start of our grieving process; this is much stronger after a traumatic loss. It is not a sign that you have done anything wrong but an expression of you being a loving and caring owner - the more you care, the more prone you are to reflect anything back on yourself, first and foremost.

There are always things in life that you cannot foresee and stumble into blindly; it is a big part of being an adult. What counts is how you get up and what you take from it. We can never go back and change the past but we can change the future. Upsetting experiences and mistakes are what supr us on to re-think and learn, and ultimately understand more deeply and grow as a human being. Somebody who only sails along the surface, never putting a foot wrong, will never grow. You will always wish that you'd had known some things sooner or found in a less painful way. Regrets are an inevitable part of being an adult and of pet ownership.

But when you do your own healing-learning, taking away from your loss as much as you can as the best legacy you can make your poor little boy, please keep in mind that a lot of our collective experience has been found the hard way over many years and not rarely at the cost of lives or unfortunate accidents; and that it has not come as a divine inspiration!
Not least all the piggies I have lost in 50 years, starting as a child right back in what is more like stone age of pet keeping - yet all my piggies have been loved and had as good a life as I could give them at the time, despite us knowing so little and vet care being very limited. But every single of my piggies has taught me a little more, even though some lessons have been pretty painful along the way.

Bladder stones are usually the result of several factors coming together since the calcium absorption is a very complex process unless your diet is grossly overladen with calcium. A lot depends on where a stone is found; especially in boars. Anything on the far side of the bladder (kidneys and ureters) is currently still beyond a vet's skill for a successful op. In boars it is also crucial whether a stone passed from the bladder fetches up in the awkward inglenook they have in their urethra; stones and crystals can embed in the walls or block the flow of urine - neither is good news and usually makes for a make or break emergency situation with no guarantee of a good outcome.

Diet is just our best handle to minimise the risk the of stones adn sludge. Keep in mind that calcium comes with all food groups (including water, which is very often overlooked even though it is one of the biggest contributors in a hard water area) and that there is a kind of 'soft spot' in the diet between too much and too little calcium with oxalates also playing into it - since conditions vary across the world there is not an exact formula that works perfectly for everywhere.
You may want to read up on our diet recommendations, which have at least stood the test of time so they work for most people; cutting out/radically down some rather unexpected food groups has to do with calcium, oxalates and long term gut microbiome health. The more your diet resembles a natural diet that guinea pigs have evolved on, the better. We do update our recommendations as we go on and learn more, of course.

Please be kind to yourself and try not to beat yourself up. Be sad but do not put yourself down. Most of us have been in comparable situations at some point or other, so we very much sympathise.

What you can positively do is some reading up. Keep in mind that a lot of the knowledge we have accumulated on here has been found the hard way and has not come as a divine revelation. There is a lot of 'paying forward' embedded in there and in what we are doing as a friendly and supportive community!

Diet:
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets (looks at diet as a whole and at each food group in detail, plus some recommendations for guinea pigs with some acute long term problems)

Life-long health monitoring and spotting early signs of illness:
Weight - Monitoring and Management
Guinea pig body quirks - What is normal and what not?
Boar Care: Bits, Bums & Baths
Early Signs Of Illness
A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours (see entry 'Pain')

Illness and emergency care:
How Soon Should My Guinea Pig See A Vet? - A Quick Guide
Emergency Information and Care

Finding a good vet:
Guinea Lynx :: Finding a Veterinarian
Guinea Lynx :: GL's Vet List

Dealing with a loss (human grieving and bereaved companions) :
Death, Dying, Terminal Illness; Human Grieving and Bereaved Companions: Information and Support for Owners and Their Children

Our information resource:
Getting Started - New Owners' Most Helpful Guides
Please bookmark, browse, read and re-read at need as you may find a lot more helpful and interesting practical information in there. We currently have one of the largest and most extensive practical collections around.
Our full and even larger information resource laid out in thematical order is best accessed via the guides shortcut on the top bar.

 

[IBS]

I’m so so sorry for your loss.
We are a friendly forum and will support you.
Please do not blame yourself. You could not have known there was a bladder stone forming. Often there are signs such as blood or pain when urinating/pooping. You don’t report any of these and weight loss in itself can occur i such a lot of issues.
An issue with the relationship can cause weight loss, but it should not be the first thing which comes to mind - medical issues should be, with bond issues being looked at once medical has been ruled out.
It sounds as if their relationship was fine. Chasing and other dominance behaviours are completely normal and not A reason to separate them. It’s what boars do and does not mean bullying.

Having had an x ray sooner does not necessarily mean the outcome would have been any different. Surgery can be done to remove a bladder stone (advisable in boars as stones, if they try to pass them, can become stuck in their urethra) but it doesn’t mean surgery is advisable in every situation particularly if there were other medical issues which may prevent it. Also, you need an experienced and piggy knowledgeable vet to carry out such a surgery.

There is a genetic element to a piggy’s predisposition to bladder stones and of course there is nothing you can do about that. All we can do as owners is control the diet but at times and with the genetic element in play, even controlling the diet may not be enough.

In terms of diet, you are right, a lot of calcium is not good (too little also can cause problems and throw off the calcium balance). Therefore, the sample diet in this guide can help to get that balance

Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets

Pellets contain a lot of calcium and must be kept limited at all times - just one tablespoon per pig per day only. Ensuring pellets are grain free and low calcium (don’t contain alfalfa/Lucerne), giving even less pellets or cutting pellets out completely when there are bladder problems is advisable. But it is important to note that a week of to many pellets won’t have caused the bladder stone - the formation of the stone would have started long before that.
The vet didn’t give you good diet advice and It’s good you didn’t follow the vets advice of four cups per day but even one cup of pellets per day is too much. Giving four cups of pellets per day would be a huge problem not only for the risk of too much calcium intake but that amount of pellets would stop him from eating enough hay - hay is the most important part of the diet. Longer term reduced hay intake due to excessive pellets would lead to gut problems, dental problems and obesity.
High calcium veg such as parsley, kale and spinach should also be kept limited and not feed any more than once per week. Filtering drinking water is also advisable where a person lives in a hard water area.
A good sample of daily veg is lettuce, cilantro, bell pepper and cucumber, and a green bean. These provide a balance of essential nutrients and vitamin c needed daily. Piggies with a good balanced diet don’t need supplementary vitamin c.
Of course, hay needs to be provided in unlimited amounts every day and pellets, as mentioned, is just one tablespoon per pig per day.

Please be kind to yourself

Thank you for your support and detailed replies!
So it sounds like what I may have done differently is that I should have pressured the vet to look into medical problems when he experienced weight loss. I did not notice any blood in his pee. Another thing I noticed is that I have been giving my guinea pigs bottled water with minerals, which I just learned is not good. However, in the forum guidelines, it also says distilled water is toxic. Why is that?

 

[IBS]

Hi and welcome

BIG HUGS

You have done the right thing, seeing a vet as soon as you were sure that something was not right.
We all experience feelings of failure and guilt or intense soul-searching at the start of our grieving process; this much stronger after a traumatic loss. It is not a sign that you have done anything wrong but an expression of you being a loving and caring owner - the more you care, the more prone you are to reflect anything back on yourself, first and foremost.

There are always things in life that you cannot foresee and stumble into blindly; it is a big part of being an adult. What counts is how you get up and what you take from it. We can never go back and change the past but we can change future. Upsetting experiences and mistakes what make us re-think and learn, and ultimately understand deep and grow as a human being. Somebody who only sails along the surface, never putting a foot wrong will never grow. You will always wish that you'd had known some things sooner or found in a less painful way.

But when you do your own healing-learning, taking away from your loss as much as you as the best legacy you can make your poor little boy, please keep in mind that a lot of our collective experience has been found by learning the hard way over many years and not rarely at the cost of lives or unfortunate accidents, and that is has not come as a divine inspiration! Not least all the piggies I have lost in 50 years, starting as a child right back in what is more like stone age of pet keeping - yet all my piggies have been loved and had as good a life as I could give them at the time, despite us knowing so little and vet care being very limited. But every of my piggies has taught me a little more,, even though some lessons have been pretty painful.

Bladder stones are usually the result of several factors coming together since the calcum absorption is a very complex process unless your diet is grossly overladen with calcium. A lot depends on where a stone is found. Anything beyond the bladder (kidneys and ureters) are currently still beyond a vet's skill for a successful op. In boars it is also crucial whether a stone passed from the bladder fetches up in the awkward inglenook they have in their urethra; stones and crystals can embed in the walls or block the flow of urine - neither is good news and usually makes for a make or break emergency situation with no guarantee of a good outcome.

Diet is just our best handle to minimise the risk the of them. Keep in mind that calcium comes with all food groups (including water, which is very often overlooked even though it is one of the biggest contributors in a hard water area) and that there is a kind of 'soft spot' between too much and too little calcium in the diet with oxalates also playing into it - since conditions vary across the world, there is not an exact formula that works perfectly for everywhere.
You may want to read up on our diet recommendations, which have at least stood the test of time so they work for most people; cutting out/radically down some rather unexpected food groups has to do with calcium, oxalates and long term gut microbiome health. The more your diet resembles a natural diet guinea pigs have evolved on, the better. We do update our recommendations as we go on and learn more, of course.

Please be kind to yourself and do not beat yourself up. Be sad but do not put yourself down. Most of us have been in comparable situations at some point or other.

What you can positively do, is some reading up. Keep in mind that a lot of the knowledge we have accumulated has been found the hard way and has not come as a divine revelation. There is a lot of 'paying forward' embedded in there!

Diet:
Long Term Balanced General And Special Needs Guinea Pig Diets (looks at diet as a whole and at each food group in detail, plus some recommendations for guinea pigs with some acute long term problems)

Life-long health monitoring and spotting early signs of illness:
Weight - Monitoring and Management
Guinea pig body quirks - What is normal and what not?
Boar Care: Bits, Bums & Baths
Early Signs Of Illness
A - Z of Guinea Pig Behaviours (see entry 'Pain')

Illness and emergency care:
How Soon Should My Guinea Pig See A Vet? - A Quick Guide
Emergency Information and Care

Finding a good vet:
Guinea Lynx :: Finding a Veterinarian
Guinea Lynx :: GL's Vet List

Dealing with a loss (human grieving and bereaved companions) :
Death, Dying, Terminal Illness; Human Grieving and Bereaved Companions: Information and Support for Owners and Their Children

Our information resource:
Getting Started - New Owners' Most Helpful Guides
Please bookmark, browse, read and re-read at need as you may find a lot more helpful and interesting practical information in there. We currently have one of the largest and most extensive practical collections around.
Our full and even larger information resource laid out in thematical order is best accessed via the guides shortcut on the top bar.

Thank you so much! I live in the US and the water is not particularly hard as far as I know. Besides, I have been giving them purified water, which I realized has minerals in them. It is recommended to distill the water but it also says distilled water should not be given. Do you happen to know why that is the case? Thanks!

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much! I live in the US and the water is not particularly hard as far as I know. Besides, I have been giving them purified water, which I realized has minerals in them. It is recommended to distill the water but it also says distilled water should not be given. Do you happen to know why that is the case? Thanks!

Distilled water is long term harmful as it reacts differently with the body chemistry to normal water. Filtering does not only remove some of the calcium but also some minerals, which can contribute to the build up of stones. When using bottled water, please check whether is is low in calcium and minerals or not.

Overall, the USA is mostly a soft water country while the UK is majorly a hard water country; so the water angle is more crucial over here but always worth checking out. My particular area is known for being a bit of a hot spot for bladder stones, so I am of course more aware of it. Filtering has made the biggest difference together with reducing the amount of pellets I have been feeding and has pretty much meant the end of any bladder stone issues about 8 years ago. I've only had a single case since then in about 50 piggies passing through here and that happened in the wake of the fresh veg/greens supply issues we were experiencing at the start of the pandemic, when most what was on offer was on the higher calcium side.

I have included links to help you find a vet who is hopefully more up on guinea pigs. It is generally vets without experience that push behavioural issues when it should be the other way round - any weight loss needs to be medically investigated first and foremost because the behavioural angle is very often the reaction to a developing health issue and not the other way round.
Stones can be 'silent', i.e. not cause any noticeable symptoms apart from a sudden and dramatic weight loss due to pain in the bladder.

I hope that we can help ease your distress a bit?