Two boys and two girls?

[MrsHappyH]

Hi All,

I'm thinking very carefully about the possibility of adding two girls to the herd .. i have two boys 7months at present obv they would be neutered..

The boys get on fine .. one is bossy but no real trouble .. they dont really enjoy each-others company a massive amount though as they are very different guinea pigs .. so as enrichment thinking about adding two rescue females about the same age .. (obv they have loads of toys etc i change stuff about constantly also)

My question is this … are two girls the right number to add to two boys ? Is it a good idea? - I'm prepared to keep them separately if need be .. but ideally not ! Has anyone done this already ? Thanks for your help..

Send pics of your lovely guinea pigs please

 

[Claire W]

Please don’t mix them. The boys will fight over the girls. You also have to be careful keeping the different pairs as they will have to live in separate rooms or at least as far away from each other as possible as the smell of the girls could still cause your boys to fight

 

[Claire W]

If your boys generally don’t enjoy each others company, you could consider neutering them and giving them a girlfriend each after the 6 weeks post op wait so you would have two pairs of a male and female in each pair. The two pairs could then live side by side

 

[Piggies&buns]

I can only agree with Claire.

You cannot add any girls (or any other piggies at all for that matter) in the same cage with two boys (even if the boys are neutered). Doing so is a recipe for disaster, will cause huge fights and instantly break the bond between your two boys. It absolutely will not provide enrichment for them.
A functioning boar pair must remain just that….a pair with no other piggies ever added.

You say they don’t enjoy each other’s company. Why do you think that? One being dominant, one being submissive is absolutely what you need for a functioning bond.
If they don’t fight, then they are indeed well bonded, are compatible and do enjoy being with each other.
Not sharing hides etc is not proof of them not wanting to be together. It is very normal for piggies to not share hides, physical space etc, even in well bonded pairs.
And even in well bonded pairs you will still see dominance behaviours (including as adults) as this is how a bond is maintained.
Your boys are teenagers and about to come into another hormone spike in a couple of months so having periods of ‘tension’ and increased dominance is normal but does not mean they don’t enjoy being together.

If you wish to keep your current boar pair together but still want another pair of piggies, then you have two options:

- have another separate boar pair which must live in a separate cage. They can live in the same room as your current boar pair.
- have a separate sow pair. In this case, the boar pair and sow pair should be kept in totally different rooms. A boar pair cannot be in the presence of sows without risking the boys fighting with each other (even if they cannot physically get to the girls).
Adding sows into the room where a pair of boys live will cause a big reaction, even more so given your boys are at the height of their teens, and just smelling girls could be enough to ruin the boys bond and cause them to fight.
At the very least, anybody who already has a boar pair but wanting a sow pair, then a sow pair should be kept as far apart as possible (if a separate room isn’t an option) from a boar pair or in stacked cages with the sows at the bottom so no sow pheromones go near the boys.

The alternative is to neuter the boys, wait six weeks for them to become infertile, split them up and bond each of them with their own sow in separate cages.
Doing this is absolutely fine if you wish but unless your boys were actually fighting, then there is no need for change things for them.
A pair boar is a wonderful thing and full of such character!

Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?

 

[MrsHappyH]

Thanks for your replies .. little confusing - i have an aunt who is technically a ‘rodentologist’ and has worked for a guinea pig rescue centre in cornwall for many years .. she has managed to mix all kinds of guinea pig groups together .. so perhaps it could be done .. although your comments were exactly the advise I was after ..

My boys are extremely laid back - I'm aware that a dominant one is a good thing thats not the issue .. its more of a case that they dont stimulate each other very much .. they are calm which is great but also a little .. bored ! One is very intelligent in many ways and solves puzzles extremely well .. but gets a bit .. lethargic (not in a medical way)

I'm learning about the guinea pig kingdom so to speak in terms of the complexities of their hierarchies and communication etc so all your experience is great - now I'm going to have to quizz my aunt again about how they manage it at the rescue centre ..

Many thanks

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thanks for your replies .. little confusing - i have an aunt who is technically a ‘rodentologist’ and has worked for a guinea pig rescue centre in cornwall for many years .. she has managed to mix all kinds of guinea pig groups together .. so perhaps it could be done .. although your comments were exactly the advise I was after ..

My boys are extremely laid back - I'm aware that a dominant one is a good thing thats not the issue .. its more of a case that they dont stimulate each other very much .. they are calm which is great but also a little .. bored ! One is very intelligent in many ways and solves puzzles extremely well .. but gets a bit .. lethargic (not in a medical way)

I'm learning about the guinea pig kingdom so to speak in terms of the complexities of their hierarchies and communication etc so all your experience is great - now I'm going to have to quizz my aunt again about how they manage it at the rescue centre ..

Many thanks

Very laid back boars, a very dominant top piggy keeping everyone in line and probably a huge amount of space.

Mixing sows in with a boar pair in a typical home cage situation would be hugely problematic.

What you consider the way they should stimulate each other is likely very different to the reality for piggies. A lot of piggy communication is in ways we cannot detect, pheromones for example and body language so they will be constantly communicating with and providing stimulation to each other.

Providing enrichment most importantly by having a compatible pair (which they are), and secondly by allowing natural behaviours such as foraging is enough for them.

Enrichment Ideas for Guinea Pigs

 

[MrsHappyH]

So ive just checked - and apparently the big herds are all with 1 boy ! Although my last two guinea pigs ( in the 90’s ) joined a massive here at a small animal zoo with no probs so again confusing that some people manage it !?

 

[MrsHappyH]

Very laid back boars, a very dominant top piggy keeping everyone in line and probably a huge amount of space.

Mixing sows in with a boar pair in a typical home cage situation would be hugely problematic.

What you consider the way they should stimulate each other is likely very different to the reality for piggies. A lot of piggy communication is in ways we cannot detect, pheromones for example and body language so they will be constantly communicating with and providing stimulation to each other.

Providing enrichment most importantly by having a compatible pair (which they are), and secondly by allowing natural behaviours such as foraging is enough for them.

Enrichment Ideas for Guinea Pigs

Great thank you for this

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

Thanks for your replies .. little confusing - i have an aunt who is technically a ‘rodentologist’ and has worked for a guinea pig rescue centre in cornwall for many years .. she has managed to mix all kinds of guinea pig groups together .. so perhaps it could be done .. although your comments were exactly the advise I was after ..

My boys are extremely laid back - I'm aware that a dominant one is a good thing thats not the issue .. its more of a case that they dont stimulate each other very much .. they are calm which is great but also a little .. bored ! One is very intelligent in many ways and solves puzzles extremely well .. but gets a bit .. lethargic (not in a medical way)

I'm learning about the guinea pig kingdom so to speak in terms of the complexities of their hierarchies and communication etc so all your experience is great - now I'm going to have to quizz my aunt again about how they manage it at the rescue centre ..

Many thanks

Hi and welcome

Adding sows to a boar pair to make your boys more lively won't work - they are still going remain couch potatoes for most of the time and you will eventually end up with four couch potatoes instead of two once the girls hit adulthood and calm down, too.
Sows come into season about every two weeks and will mate with a boar only right at the end for a very short time. Any mounting in the run up - if a sow is experiencing a strong season - is actually usually done between the sows. many seasons are weaker and run very discretely with minimal fuss, however.
The lot of a husboar consists of being mostly fobbed off and being told to keep their knees locked, so to speak. I've had quite a few of them with any amount of sows and of all kinds of temperaments over the years.

In most cases, the 2 sows and 2 boars constellation doesn't work and you can never count on being the lucky one.
If your boys are not getting on, then neutering and pairing each boy with a sow of his own in separate cages will work much better. Cross gender bondings with just one neutered boar are the most stable constellation, provided they get past the initial acceptance and leadership hurdle, especially when pairing up adults.

It would be great if you considered adopting if you want more piggies, but please rather consider a separate already bonded boar pair. What rescues are overflowing with right now is unwanted boars of all ages and temperaments that have sadly little chance of finding a new good home; but please don't try to create a boar quartet or trio on spec - it is also a constellation that can all too easily end with a pair and two singles as the most common outcome we see on here. All singles is about the same chance as you will be successful - especially the more lively sub-adults are involved.

 

[MrsHappyH]

Hi


Hi and welcome

Adding sows to a boar pair to make your boys more lively won't work - they are still going remain couch potatoes for most of the time and you will eventually end up with four couch potatoes instead of two once the girls hit adulthood and calm down, too.
Sows come into season about every two weeks and will mate with a boar only right at the end for a very short time. Any mounting in the run up - if a sow is experiencing a strong season - is actually usually done between the sows. many seasons are weaker and run very discretely with minimal fuss, however.
The lot of a husboar consists of being mostly fobbed off and being told to keep their knees locked, so to speak. I've had quite a few of them with any amount of sows and of all kinds of temperaments over the years.

In most cases, the 2 sows and 2 boars constellation doesn't work and you can never count on being the lucky one.
If your boys are not getting on, then neutering and pairing each boy with a sow of his own in separate cages will work much better. Cross gender bondings with just one neutered boar are the most stable constellation, provided they get past the initial acceptance and leadership hurdle, especially when pairing up adults.

It would be great if you considered adopting if you want more piggies, but please rather consider a separate already bonded boar pair. What rescues are overflowing with right now is unwanted boars of all ages and temperaments that have sadly little chance of finding a new good home; but please don't try to create a boar quartet or trio on spec - it is also a constellation that can all too easily end with a pair and two singles as the most common outcome we see on here. All singles is about the same chance as you will be successful - especially the more lively sub-adults are involved.

Thank you so much for your advice .. all noted . And very informative. Thank you

 

[Piggies&buns]

So ive just checked - and apparently the big herds are all with 1 boy ! Although my last two guinea pigs ( in the 90’s ) joined a massive here at a small animal zoo with no probs so again confusing that some people manage it !?

The situation there with your last two piggies is just as you say - a massive herd. A large number of piggies would help to diffuse any tensions caused by having multiple boars with sows. Equally, it would require a huge amount of space - typically one square metre of territory per piggy. Also, you will find they actually would be living as smaller groups within the big herd. It’s just not the same as a typical home /cage situation .

 

[poggle]

I can't speak for everyone of course, but certainly when we tried a mixed herd of two boars and four sows (in the 90s, following bad pre-internet advice) after an unplanned pregnancy (following some other questionable advice), it really, really, really did not work. 0/10, surprised in hindsight that we didn't need a vet, would not recommend! We wound up with two happy mini herds though

 

[MrsHappyH]

Thanks for all your advice

 

[Wiebke]

So ive just checked - and apparently the big herds are all with 1 boy ! Although my last two guinea pigs ( in the 90’s ) joined a massive here at a small animal zoo with no probs so again confusing that some people manage it !?

It is a matter of space - lots of it. Guinea pigs can live in large multi-boar groups if there is loads of space, like the equivalent of a large room or bigger. The same goes for bachelor (boars only) herds - again, they work best in larger numbers and with oddles of space. Don't count on it always being peaceful; even then you will need space hospital cages and a place for piggies that end up being bullied or don't fit in.

Quite a number of my adoptees have come out of uncontrolled breeding hoarding situations that started with a mis-sexed pair and snowballed from there. The legacy and traumas can be considerable and even transfer several generations down with high stress levels as the default setting for embryos from very stressed prgnant sows. I would be highly surprised if that zoo situation was as idyllic as it looked on the surface to a casual visitor!

In a normal pet cage/home setting, a single 'husboar' group is what usually works out, provided the boy is initially accepted by the sows - this is not necessarily a given, as I know from ample bonding experience myself which must be well over hundred successful or unsuccessful bondings/bonding attempts by now.

I've done anything between a mixed pair to a husboar with 13 sows myself. The latter eventually fell apart into two smaller groups and a pair of sows in the wake of a hostile takeover of the Top Lady position by an ambitious younger sow coming up through the ranks.

You need to be aware that groups are a dynamic concept and not a static one; they don't stay the same, just like a human marriage or family - they constantly develop.
Interaction can take a bad turn and dynamics change as piggies grow older/new ones arrive and move through the hierarchy. Guinea pig lives are much shorter, so everything happens kind of on fast forward; including the whole soap operas you get with groups - especially with sows with ovarian cysts or long standing grudges...

The problem with your dream is that yes, it can work out but it mostly doesn't. You need to be fully prepared for the worst case scenario because it is much more likely and you'd better be able/prepared to deal with and cope with the fall-out when it all goes horribly pear-sharped at any point. There is simply no guarantee for success because it comes down to space and exactly the right personality match. The smaller a group, the more weight the individual personalities and interpersonal dynamics have.

 

[Seven7]

My boys Finn and Bear live separately but occasionally rub noses, and sleep close to each other.
They run away from each other during play dates and guard their food bowls. Sometimes I can’t find Bear during a play date, which means he would rather explore the living room then play with Finn or stay with Finn.

 

[MrsHappyH]

It is a matter of space - lots of it. Guinea pigs can live in large multi-boar groups if there is loads of space, like the equivalent of a large room or bigger. The same goes for bachelor (boars only) herds - again, they work best in larger numbers and with oddles of space. Don't count on it always being peaceful; even then you will need space hospital cages and a place for piggies that end up being bullied or don't fit in.

Quite a number of my adoptees have come out of uncontrolled breeding hoarding situations that started with a mis-sexed pair and snowballed from there. The legacy and traumas can be considerable and even transfer several generations down with high stress levels as the default setting for embryos from very stressed prgnant sows. I would be highly surprised if that zoo situation was as idyllic as it looked on the surface to a casual visitor!

In a normal pet cage/home setting, a single 'husboar' group is what usually works out, provided the boy is initially accepted by the sows - this is not necessarily a given, as I know from ample bonding experience myself which must be well over hundred successful or unsuccessful bondings/bonding attempts by now.

I've done anything between a mixed pair to a husboar with 13 sows myself. The latter eventually fell apart into two smaller groups and a pair of sows in the wake of a hostile takeover of the Top Lady position by an ambitious younger sow coming up through the ranks.

You need to be aware that groups are a dynamic concept and not a static one; they don't stay the same, just like a human marriage or family - they constantly develop.
Interaction can take a bad turn and dynamics change as piggies grow older/new ones arrive and move through the hierarchy. Guinea pig lives are much shorter, so everything happens kind of on fast forward; including the whole soap operas you get with groups; especially with sows with ovarian cysts or long standing grudges...

The problem with your dream is that yes, it can work out but it mostly doesn't. You need to be fully prepared for the worst case scenario because it is much more likely and be able to deal with and cope with the fall-out when it all goes horribly pear-sharped at any point. There is simply no guarantee for success because it comes down to space and exactly the right personality match.

Thanks really interesting!

 

[VickiA]

Such an informative thread and so much great advice given on here. I agree that mixing sows in with a pair of neutered boars would not work in the long term (even if it did appear so in the short term). @Betsy had a mixed herd with multiple sows and 2 neutered boars for a period of time but she found it necessary to separate them into 2 herds with one neutered boar per herd.

 

[Betsy]

Yes that's correct @VickiA. I had a mixed herd with 3 sows and 2 boars and all was fine for about a year then I had to separate them. It doesn't really work. Now I know more about piggie interactions, I wouldn't do it again.