Trouble Introducing Neutered Male To Bonded Sow Pair

[JennyPig]

A few weeks ago we had the issue of our bonded sows fighting prior to meeting the new boy, who they could smell as he lives in the cage next door
Bonded Sows Fighting During Floor Time

This has happily resolved itself and we now remove the boar's (Harold) cage when it's floor time.

Yesterday the six-week post-neutering period was up and we tried introducing them.
We used our hallway as neutral territory as none of the pigs had been in there. The area is approx 140cm x 290cm, so plenty of space.
The only things in there (apart from the pigs of course) were two small piles of hay, a small hay tunnel and a "food station" in the middle with pellets and fresh food.
We placed the girls (Ginger & Pickle) in there, followed by the fresh food and Harold.
They fed peacefully together until all the fresh food was gone.
Ginger and Harold seemed to be ok for the most part and mostly ignored each other. Ginger seemed to be pretty scared of him and was making squealing (submissive?) noises almost the whole time, even when he was not her but there were things going on between Harold and Pickle. The few times they did interact, Harold mounted her, which she took non-violent exception to. Those two might just require more time to work that out.
Pickle and Harold is more complicated.
Pickle chatters her teeth aggressively when he startles her, which is whenever he does anything. At times, they seemed to have a truce and were eating hay nervously next to each other, interrupted by nervous jerks if one of them moved too rapidly or ate the piece of hay they were sitting on. For the most part, Harold responded to the teeth chattering with getting on with his business, which mostly made Pickle stop chattering.
She seemed to be challenging him to a nose-off at times but started chattering again when he moved at all.
So far it's been mostly mildly worrying but not a show-stopper.
Then there was an incidence when they leaped at each other and bumped their heads quite hard, which left Harold with a small shallow cut in his lip. From watching it, it seemed as though this stemmed from the impact with Pickle's teeth, rather than Pickle biting him, but I could be wrong. We intervened and left them in the run for now.
Pickle seemed to be marking out one corner as her own and got defensive whenever Harold went near that corner, the worst of which was when she ran at Harold, who promptly turned tail, followed by Pickle nipping at him. No blood was draw but it was worrying enough for us to intervene again.
At this point, they had been in there for two hours and we returned them to their own cages, since nothing seemed to be resolving itself. In their cages, they went promptly to sleep.

Are the run-ins between Pickle and Harold serious enough to conclude that they just won't get along? Or is it worth trying again?

We are grateful for any advice as the whole thing seemed inconclusive to us.

 

[Wiebke]

A few weeks ago we had the issue of our bonded sows fighting prior to meeting the new boy, who they could smell as he lives in the cage next door
Bonded Sows Fighting During Floor Time

This has happily resolved itself and we now remove the boar's (Harold) cage when it's floor time.

Yesterday the six-week post-neutering period was up and we tried introducing them.
We used our hallway as neutral territory as none of the pigs had been in there. The area is approx 140cm x 290cm, so plenty of space.
The only things in there (apart from the pigs of course) were two small piles of hay, a small hay tunnel and a "food station" in the middle with pellets and fresh food.
We placed the girls (Ginger & Pickle) in there, followed by the fresh food and Harold.
They fed peacefully together until all the fresh food was gone.
Ginger and Harold seemed to be ok for the most part and mostly ignored each other. Ginger seemed to be pretty scared of him and was making squealing (submissive?) noises almost the whole time, even when he was not her but there were things going on between Harold and Pickle. The few times they did interact, Harold mounted her, which she took non-violent exception to. Those two might just require more time to work that out.
Pickle and Harold is more complicated.
Pickle chatters her teeth aggressively when he startles her, which is whenever he does anything. At times, they seemed to have a truce and were eating hay nervously next to each other, interrupted by nervous jerks if one of them moved too rapidly or ate the piece of hay they were sitting on. For the most part, Harold responded to the teeth chattering with getting on with his business, which mostly made Pickle stop chattering.
She seemed to be challenging him to a nose-off at times but started chattering again when he moved at all.
So far it's been mostly mildly worrying but not a show-stopper.
Then there was an incidence when they leaped at each other and bumped their heads quite hard, which left Harold with a small shallow cut in his lip. From watching it, it seemed as though this stemmed from the impact with Pickle's teeth, rather than Pickle biting him, but I could be wrong. We intervened and left them in the run for now.
Pickle seemed to be marking out one corner as her own and got defensive whenever Harold went near that corner, the worst of which was when she ran at Harold, who promptly turned tail, followed by Pickle nipping at him. No blood was draw but it was worrying enough for us to intervene again.
At this point, they had been in there for two hours and we returned them to their own cages, since nothing seemed to be resolving itself. In their cages, they went promptly to sleep.

Are the run-ins between Pickle and Harold serious enough to conclude that they just won't get along? Or is it worth trying again?

We are grateful for any advice as the whole thing seemed inconclusive to us.

Pickle sounds very fear-aggressive; Ginger is just fearful, but submissive - my Nerys was the same I bonded her.

It sounds like Pickle will come out on top if Harold is turning tail. Nipping is normal dominance behaviour. I would recommend to leave them in the bonding area (even overnight) so can get used to each other's close presence more. It is not going to an easy one-day bonding and it is still borderline whether it is going to work out or fail.

 

[VickiA]

With Wiebke. Ginger is squealing in typical under sow submissive fashion (baby Mabel spent Friday and yesterday doing the same thing whenever Mollie so much as moved). So that hierarchy sounds sorted - she is just a bit afraid of him and that will improve the more time she spends with him.

Pickle sounds like she too is afraid but is seeking to be the dominant one of the group and Harold may be accepting of that. The teeth chattering and nose offs are normal dominance behaviour as is chasing, rumbling and nipping. Sounds like they need more time.

Only intervene if the teeth chattering turns to clacking (you will hear the escalation believe me) or if either fluffs themselves up and raises on their haunches or hisses and lunges at the other. That's when a full blown fight will follow and injuries may occur. Best to have a towel on hand to throw over them in case that happens or have an oven glove ready to protect your hand.

I know what a nerve wracking time this is for you, but just be observant and leave them to it as this may work out eventually.

 

[Wiebke]

You may find this thread here helpful: Illustrated Bonding Behaviours And Dynamics

 

[JennyPig]

Thank you very much for your replies. We're just preparing for attempt two. We'll see how it goes.

 

[JennyPig]

Update on take two:

They have been in there for four hours now. At first there was no change in behaviour, except that Ginger had a not-too-serious lunge at Harold. Apart from that they seem to be getting on not too badly; she is weeing on him when he tries it on but he doesn't seem to get the message. I'm sure they'd work their differences out in time as their clashes are not too serious.

Pretty much unchanged between Harold and Pickle as well. She chatters her teeth every time he comes near her and we had a couple of semi-serious lunges from her with fur taken. The main problem here, I think, is that, while he backs down most of the time, he doesn't do so consistently, or not in a way that is obvious to Pickle and he had a good, semi-serious lunge at her as well.

Then, they had a rest. Ginger and Pickle in one corner, Harold in another, about three, four feet apart. When they had enough rest, all three ate hay happily next to each other and we rejoiced.

Until Pickle started the old chattering again. So far Harold has backed down every time (post-rest) and there have been no incidents that have been too worrying as he always walks off. He has started the worried squeaking every time she is nearby, but Pickle doesn't seem to get the message and has followed him the length of the area on a few occasions. This has not led to any altercation, but a bit worrying all the same.

Considering that little real progress has been made, the options we have now as I see them are:
1. Keep then in there overnight as Wiebke suggested. - I don't think we are ready to do that. While the clashes have not reached a very worrying state, if the altercations became worse in the night with nobody watching and one or more of the pigs got seriously hurt, we'd never forgive ourselves, besides the fact that our beloved pigs got injured.
2. Keep them in there for as long as possible today and try again tomorrow. -Is that even worth trying or would be starting from square one?
3. Keep them in the introduction area overnight but introduce a divider. -Is that a waste of time as they won't actually get to work out their differences? Or is it worth trying as Pickle might eventually get used to Harold?
4. Give up. -Don't really want to do that if there's chance it might work, but if it's not to be, then we'll have to accept that and we can still give Harold a good home in his own cage (he's a rescue pig).

Again, any thought are most appreciated.

 

[JennyPig]

Another update.
They've been together in the bonding area for almost 10 hours now.
We've had no blood drawn at all and no worryingly aggressive encounters for at least six hours apart from Harold launching himself at once at each of the girls. These did not result in a fight and may have been him trying to try a leaping mount.
Whether the girls are simply too tired to respond to Harold or are getting more tolerant of his nonsense is anyone's guess.
We are now reasonably happy to keep them overnight in the bonding area and that we won't wake up to find they had some serious fights in the night.
Hope they sleep OK, they seem exhausted. Know how they feel.

 

[Beans&Toast]

Aw I hope it works out for them!

 

[JennyPig]

Well it's the morning and all three pigs are all here. Harold's still trying to mount everything in sight and the girls are getting royally annoyed in a non-violent way. That's the good news.
The bad news is that Pickle somehow managed to get her lower teeth embedded in her lower lip.
She's eating now after a trip to the vet and some painkillers.
On the vet's advice we are going to put them back in their seperate cages for now to reduce Pickle 's stress levels.
There will be the possobility of some face to face interaction through bars but the holes at the end of the cages are only small so not sure how useful that'll be.
For now, the introduction has failed.
Is it worth trying again in the future? Progress was being made and we had planned to put them in a communal cage this afternoon as we will be able to watch them for the next couple of days.

 

[Beans&Toast]

Well it's the morning and all three pigs are all here. Harold's still trying to mount everything in sight and the girls are getting royally annoyed in a non-violent way. That's the good news.
The bad news is that Pickle somehow managed to get her lower teeth embedded in her lower lip.
She's eating now after a trip to the vet and some painkillers.
On the vet's advice we are going to put them back in their seperate cages for now to reduce Pickle 's stress levels.
There will be the possobility of some face to face interaction through bars but the holes at the end of the cages are only small so not sure how useful that'll be.
For now, the introduction has failed.
Is it worth trying again in the future? Progress was being made and we had planned to put them in a communal cage this afternoon as we will be able to watch them for the next couple of days.

I think it would be worth trying again.
Some pigs get on well right away some take time and some will never get on its just a case of having a lot of patience to try and making sure you stop if it's getting far too stressful for them and they stop eating/moving about

 

[VickiA]

Poor Pickle that sounds painful. But at least she's pain free and eating again.
When Mr Ted (RIP) first came to live with us both Toffee and Fudge were still alive. Initial introductions did not go well - well actually that's an understatement as he and Toffee got on but he and Fudge didn't. As we knew Toffee was living on borrowed time it was very important that Fudge accepted Mr Ted as he was going to be her long term partner. We had a bit of an initial scrum with dominant Fudge trying to rule everyone and Toffee shrieking every time there was a sound of teeth chattering and rumbling (which was pretty constant). So we reconfigured the cage, rearranged the room and had them living side by side and kept swapping cuddlies, beds and bowls between the cages. Then at daily cleaning and floor time I'd put them into a neutral pen space and eventually they got used to each other. Mr Ted was eventually moved in with the girls after about 3 weeks and it all went relatively ok thereafter.
I think you are doing the right thing. Giving them some space but close proximity and then gradually reintroducing them to each other. I wouldn't give up on them just yet.

 

[Wiebke]

Update on take two:

They have been in there for four hours now. At first there was no change in behaviour, except that Ginger had a not-too-serious lunge at Harold. Apart from that they seem to be getting on not too badly; she is weeing on him when he tries it on but he doesn't seem to get the message. I'm sure they'd work their differences out in time as their clashes are not too serious.

Pretty much unchanged between Harold and Pickle as well. She chatters her teeth every time he comes near her and we had a couple of semi-serious lunges from her with fur taken. The main problem here, I think, is that, while he backs down most of the time, he doesn't do so consistently, or not in a way that is obvious to Pickle and he had a good, semi-serious lunge at her as well.

Then, they had a rest. Ginger and Pickle in one corner, Harold in another, about three, four feet apart. When they had enough rest, all three ate hay happily next to each other and we rejoiced.

Until Pickle started the old chattering again. So far Harold has backed down every time (post-rest) and there have been no incidents that have been too worrying as he always walks off. He has started the worried squeaking every time she is nearby, but Pickle doesn't seem to get the message and has followed him the length of the area on a few occasions. This has not led to any altercation, but a bit worrying all the same.

Considering that little real progress has been made, the options we have now as I see them are:
1. Keep then in there overnight as Wiebke suggested. - I don't think we are ready to do that. While the clashes have not reached a very worrying state, if the altercations became worse in the night with nobody watching and one or more of the pigs got seriously hurt, we'd never forgive ourselves, besides the fact that our beloved pigs got injured.
2. Keep them in there for as long as possible today and try again tomorrow. -Is that even worth trying or would be starting from square one?
3. Keep them in the introduction area overnight but introduce a divider. -Is that a waste of time as they won't actually get to work out their differences? Or is it worth trying as Pickle might eventually get used to Harold?
4. Give up. -Don't really want to do that if there's chance it might work, but if it's not to be, then we'll have to accept that and we can still give Harold a good home in his own cage (he's a rescue pig).

Again, any thought are most appreciated.

Well it's the morning and all three pigs are all here. Harold's still trying to mount everything in sight and the girls are getting royally annoyed in a non-violent way. That's the good news.
The bad news is that Pickle somehow managed to get her lower teeth embedded in her lower lip.
She's eating now after a trip to the vet and some painkillers.
On the vet's advice we are going to put them back in their seperate cages for now to reduce Pickle 's stress levels.
There will be the possobility of some face to face interaction through bars but the holes at the end of the cages are only small so not sure how useful that'll be.
For now, the introduction has failed.
Is it worth trying again in the future? Progress was being made and we had planned to put them in a communal cage this afternoon as we will be able to watch them for the next couple of days.

Please persist and let them have as long stretches together as you can; ideally let them settle together fully. It sounds like the worst of the dominance has now been sorted and you are pretty much there. Every new separation is going to be somewhat counterproductive.

Lunges themselves are actually not aggressive behaviour in themselves; they are mostly based on fear. They translate as "keep your distance from me". The crucial bit is how the other piggy is reacting to it. If the other piggy is backing off, then you need not worry.

When I mentioned leaving them overnight, I mean that you can put some extra grids in so they can still interact through them, so they are not fully separated, but it can also help them to work out the bulk of who comes on top when things are getting on in a positive direction.
I do this before an introduction, too, especially with fear-aggressive piggies like Pickles.
Boars tend to lose the on-switch for their brain in their first excitement, but it sounds like Harold has been keeping within bounds.

I am sorry about Pickles' accident!

 

[JennyPig]

Thank you all so much for your advice on this. It's really helped to reassure us that it's worth sticking at it - our nerve would've broken long ago without your advice! We'll give Pickle some time to recover from her injury and try again.

Thanks again.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you all so much for your advice on this. It's really helped to reassure us that it's worth sticking at it - our nerve would've broken long ago without your advice! We'll give Pickle some time to recover from her injury and try again.

Thanks again.

It is always nerve wracking when a bonding is right up at the limit, but please stick at it. if they were relaxed to gether by the morning, then that means that they have sorted things out between them.