Trio of Young Boars in Trouble

[Hundo]

Hey all, a little introduction to my girlfriend and I, we have three little boys Brownie(American), Oreo(Teddy) and Milo(English Crested)! As sweet as these little guys sound they are in a bit of trouble. Being brand new owners to guinea pigs without doing research, making most of the common mistakes according to known guinea pig owners/lovers on most social media, until after we picked up the little guys. We came to the fast conclusion that our original pair Brownie and Oreo weren't getting along anymore as our new little boy Milo was introduced. As soon as they met, Oreo was beginning to show heavy aggression towards Brownie. We let this slide and stopped the introduction. For a while they've been together but now since the aggression has moved onto Milo while Oreo and Brownie have been in an ongoing show for dominance since Oreo is the smallest of the trio. Oreo has a habit of attacking the others showing no warning as soon as either he goes up to them or if they're around him.

I've asked around what signs to watch out for with little to no responses on other sites more so stating the fact that trios of boars rarely work and to go even as far as "take them to a shelter and get an already bonded pair of adults" which we're starting to consider since we want what's best for these little guys and don't want to see any of them get hurt. The most of what we've done is separate Oreo from the trio, but even then Brownie gets a little aggressive with Milo for the same reasons but seems like he just chases him away, just not as common. We've heard many of squeaks because of this and I'm starting to think at this point they are beginning to hurt one another since they're coming onto their teenage years (at least 3 months).

For context we do have a cage similar to a C&C cage and altered it to 3x7 with some parts cut out for space to get around in our room. I have thought that separating them is probably what's best since keeping them is what we want to do since getting new ones felt like the wrong thing to do but we are new owners and have little to no clue what we're actually doing and what to expect since a lot of the stuff you can watch on this subject barely goes in depth onto how to handle the situations without having the only solution being "keep them in the cage until they draw blood then separate them", and that's my only justification onto rehoming the trio we have and adopting a bonded pair as it may just be easier for first time owners. We're not sure what to do, but this felt like a better place to hear outside input as we don't know anyone who's owned guinea pigs.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Welcome to the forum

Sadly as you are finding a boar trio is rarely successful. They find it very difficult to form a hierarchy as usually it’s the case that two piggies try to be dominant which will cause the relationship to fail.

The usual outcome of a boar trio is that they need to be permanently separated into a functioning pair in one cage and a single piggy in another, with the single being kept in alongside the pair for continuous interaction through the bars.
The pair require a 5x2 c&c, and the single requires a minimum of a 3x2 c&c.
This is also another factor where boar trios have issues - space. The space required to attempt three boars is much larger than the sizing requirements for three sows - boars being more territorial and needing more room (even a boar pair need more room than a sow pair do). A boar trio would need at least one square metre per piggy so that is around a 9x3 c&c cage. However, it won’t make them compatible, it just means they’ve got space to get away from each other. Lack of space can cause tensions to escalate and problems to occur even in a pair (although the main issue in a failing bond is being incompatible).

The essential factor is to ensure that the two you keep together are compatible and want to be together - you will still see dominance behaviours though.
It’s important not to confuse aggression and dominance. Dominance is normal and how boars function - things like chasing, mounting, rumbling are all normal and provided they are compatible and have a working hierarchy then they will be fine together. Aggression due to incompatibility is very different and will likely end in full on fights and does mean they cannot continue to live together.

The advice of keep them together unless and until blood is drawn is normal advice. Boars need to be able to sort things out between them and unless until they fight you need to not intervene - interrupting normal bonding processes can be detrimental to them. However, the issue is when it is a boar trio unfortunately the chances are they will not sort things out and as hormones really hit, things tend to escalate. While some people get lucky with a boar trio, most young boar trios don’t make it to adulthood together. Trios tend to only work where youngsters are involved if the three of them have been able to choose each other. Otherwise, it’s in old aged boars/carer groups where testosterone has fizzled out and it’s more about friendship and companionship than dominance.
In a worst case scenario, all three of them can fall out meaning You then end up with three single piggies in three separate cages.

You have options but you don’t need to rush into longer term decisions but they may well need to be permanently separated sooner rather than later if they cannot form a functioning relationship as a trio

- You don’t need to rehome any of them if you don’t wish to do so. The single can live happily alongside the pair (but never having physical contact with ie no playtime together) but it obviously does mean two separate cages.
- rehome the single and just keep the compatible pair
- find a new compatible boar friend for the single piggy and have two separate pairs. Care needs to be taken here to ensure they definitely are compatible otherwise you risk ending up with needing yet another separate cage. Ensuring compatibility between two piggies is best achieved with the help of a rescue centre.
The option to rehome them all and adopt a pair is there but of course that is not an easy decision to take. Having a compatible pair is obviously easier though!

I have four boars. I have a bonded pair of 5 year olds who have been together since they were 4 months old. I also have two 6 month olds who were originally a pair but the teens hit and their bond broke down. The two youngsters now live separately side by side.

A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

 

[Bill & Ted]

Hello and welcome to the forum
Great advice given there, good luck I hope you can find one working pair out of your three. Boars are great if they are well bonded so hope they can make it

 

[Hundo]

Welcome to the forum

Sadly as you are finding a boar trio is rarely successful. They find it very difficult to form a hierarchy as usually it’s the case that two piggies try to be dominant which will cause the relationship to fail.

The usual outcome of a boar trio is that they need to be permanently separated into a functioning pair in one cage and a single piggy in another, with the single being kept in alongside the pair for continuous interaction through the bars.
The pair require a 5x2 c&c, and the single requires a minimum of a 3x2 c&c.
This is also another factor where boar trios have issues - space. The space required to attempt three boars is much larger than the sizing requirements for three sows - boars being more territorial and needing more room (even a boar pair need more room than a sow pair do). A boar trio would need at least one square metre per piggy so that is around a 9x3 c&c cage. However, it won’t make them compatible, it just means they’ve got space to get away from each other. Lack of space can cause tensions to escalate and problems to occur even in a pair (although the main issue in a failing bond is being incompatible).

The essential factor is to ensure that the two you keep together are compatible and want to be together - you will still see dominance behaviours though.
It’s important not to confuse aggression and dominance. Dominance is normal and how boars function - things like chasing, mounting, rumbling are all normal and provided they are compatible and have a working hierarchy then they will be fine together. Aggression due to incompatibility is very different and will likely end in full on fights and does mean they cannot continue to live together.

The advice of keep them together unless and until blood is drawn is normal advice. Boars need to be able to sort things out between them and unless until they fight you need to not intervene - interrupting normal bonding processes can be detrimental to them. However, the issue is when it is a boar trio unfortunately the chances are they will not sort things out and as hormones really hit, things tend to escalate. While some people get lucky with a boar trio, most young boar trios don’t make it to adulthood together. Trios tend to only work where youngsters are involved if the three of them have been able to choose each other. Otherwise, it’s in old aged boars/carer groups where testosterone has fizzled out and it’s more about friendship and companionship than dominance.
In a worst case scenario, all three of them can fall out meaning You then end up with three single piggies in three separate cages.

You have options but you don’t need to rush into longer term decisions but they may well need to be permanently separated sooner rather than later if they cannot form a functioning relationship as a trio

- You don’t need to rehome any of them if you don’t wish to do so. The single can live happily alongside the pair (but never having physical contact with ie no playtime together) but it obviously does mean two separate cages.
- rehome the single and just keep the compatible pair
- find a new compatible boar friend for the single piggy and have two separate pairs. Care needs to be taken here to ensure they definitely are compatible otherwise you risk ending up with needing yet another separate cage. Ensuring compatibility between two piggies is best achieved with the help of a rescue centre.
The option to rehome them all and adopt a pair is there but of course that is not an easy decision to take. Having a compatible pair is obviously easier though!

I have four boars. I have a bonded pair of 5 year olds who have been together since they were 4 months old. I also have two 6 month olds who were originally a pair but the teens hit and their bond broke down. The two youngsters now live separately side by side.

A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

Thank you for the kind and knowledgeable response, I really do appreciate it. I wanted to know further into the differences between aggression and dominance as dominance such what you stated between Brownie and Oreo as they already established themselves when we got them, now they constantly rumble at each other which is okay, but again Oreo will possibly act to what I assume is aggressive and attack without warning. I don't know whether to determine this as aggression or just dominance as neither of the others will attack back, Brownie stands his ground with a high chin raise and Milo squeaks runs. I don't want to test it any longer to find out the outcome.

Though this seems like the relationship between Oreo and Brownie is unsalvageable due to them constantly trying to be the dominant one when Oreo was originally the under-piggie of the pair as the addition of Milo was the spark to set this behavior off. I was told before to rehome one of them and let the original two settle it out until they're back to the original state, though my question again, is Oreo's behavior something to reason with or is it just best to permanently separate them all? I will try some pairs out such as Brownie and Oreo together again as just the two and Milo being the off piggie since the pair was from the same group of boars we got at my local pet shop (yes we made the mistake of shopping and not adopting). Again if all else fails, we'll just try to distribute the cage in 3s

 

[Hundo]

Hello and welcome to the forum
Great advice given there, good luck I hope you can find one working pair out of your three. Boars are great if they are well bonded so hope they can make it

Thank you for the warm welcome! (: My girlfriend and I will definitely work on it to see how it plays out and do our best for them!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you for the kind and knowledgeable response, I really do appreciate it. I wanted to know further into the differences between aggression and dominance as dominance such what you stated between Brownie and Oreo as they already established themselves when we got them, now they constantly rumble at each other which is okay, but again Oreo will possibly act to what I assume is aggressive and attack without warning. I don't know whether to determine this as aggression or just dominance as neither of the others will attack back, Brownie stands his ground with a high chin raise and Milo squeaks runs. I don't want to test it any longer to find out the outcome.

Though this seems like the relationship between Oreo and Brownie is unsalvageable due to them constantly trying to be the dominant one when Oreo was originally the under-piggie of the pair as the addition of Milo was the spark to set this behavior off. I was told before to rehome one of them and let the original two settle it out until they're back to the original state, though my question again, is Oreo's behavior something to reason with or is it just best to permanently separate them all? I will try some pairs out such as Brownie and Oreo together again as just the two and Milo being the off piggie since the pair was from the same group of boars we got at my local pet shop (yes we made the mistake of shopping and not adopting). Again if all else fails, we'll just try to distribute the cage in 3s

Are the three of them still in the same cage?
If so then that will be affecting what you see and certainly trying to find a functioning pair would be a good idea.

Oreo and Brownie may have been the original pair but it doesn’t mean that removing Milo would solve any issues which may exist between them.
It also doesn’t mean that they would have never have had any issues.
All you can do is try two together for several hours in neutral territory and see if things work out.

When you get young piggies, younger than teenagers, there is not a 100% guarantee that their bond will survive the teens even had you not added the third piggy in. This is what happened with my two youngsters but it was a risk I was prepared for. They came to me as bonded 9 week olds. As babies they are desperate for company and tend not to have problems. But by 16 weeks they had a full on fight - sadly bond broken and immediate and permanent separation.
By far more boar pairs make it together than not though (my older two boys have lived happily together for five years)

Can you explain what you mean by ‘attacking’ the others? What you see may be different to how we interpret the behaviours!
For example, lunging at another piggy is not aggressive, it can be a defensive action. An uncomfortable piggy.
Finding wounds or witness a full on rolling around furball fight is immediate separation.

The guides I added in my first post explain.
This guide - Bonds In Trouble - will also be of use to you

 

[Hundo]

Are the three of them still in the same cage?
If so then that will be affecting what you see and certainly trying to find a functioning pair would be a good idea.

Oreo and Brownie may have been the original pair but it doesn’t mean that removing Milo would solve any issues which may exist between them.
It also doesn’t mean that they would have never have had any issues.
All you can do is try two together for several hours in neutral territory and see if things work out.

When you get young piggies, younger than teenagers, there is not a 100% guarantee that their bond will survive the teens even had you not added the third piggy in. This is what happened with my two youngsters but it was a risk I was prepared for. They came to me as bonded 9 week olds. As babies they are desperate for company and tend not to have problems. But by 16 weeks they had a full on fight - sadly bond broken and immediate and permanent separation.
By far more boar pairs make it together than not though (my older two boys have lived happily together for five years)

Can you explain what you mean by ‘attacking’ the others? What you see may be different to how we interpret the behaviours!
For example, lunging at another piggy is not aggressive, it can be a defensive action. An uncomfortable piggy.
Finding wounds or witness a full on rolling around furball fight is immediate separation.

The guides I added in my first post explain.
This guide - Bonds In Trouble - will also be of use to you

I understand what you mean with having young ones not getting through their teens. All three of them are in the same cage currently as there is a divider for a 2/1 ratio right now as I may need more C&C connectors and zip-ties to divide into 3s. Though to clarify what 'attacking' means is that he'll aggressively start nipping, almost as if it were like a dog biting another dog where their head move in rapid succession going from spot to spot on the other dog. Something like that. Quick nips/bites without being provoked or aggravated in any way. Although I haven't seen any wounds, that's my definition of 'attacking' it's just not really accurate to a full on fight level aggression. My mistake for possibly exaggerating that a bit

I kind of read the guide and at first Oreo and Brownie were at the divider rumbling at each other. Milo is still young so he's desperate to be with others so he's trying to find his way in, but all Brownie does is rumble at the divider and both Brownie and Oreo attempted to nose punch Milo while he was chewing on the divider. It makes me wonder if the two can possibly work it out just without Milo since both of them seemed to have agreed to not like him so it's unsure on where they stand

Putting Brownie and Oreo back together, they don't nip at each other like they did with Milo. Oreo gets a little more physical than Brownie but still don't get rude about it like they did with Milo and both of them seem to know when to back down. I'm not sure if I'm just interrupting and making things worse or actually fixing the problem

 

[Piggies&buns]

I understand what you mean with having young ones not getting through their teens. All three of them are in the same cage currently as there is a divider for a 2/1 ratio right now as I may need more C&C connectors and zip-ties to divide into 3s. Though to clarify what 'attacking' means is that he'll aggressively start nipping, almost as if it were like a dog biting another dog where their head move in rapid succession going from spot to spot on the other dog. Something like that. Quick nips/bites without being provoked or aggravated in any way. Although I haven't seen any wounds, that's my definition of 'attacking' it's just not really accurate to a full on fight level aggression. My mistake for possibly exaggerating that a bit

I kind of read the guide and at first Oreo and Brownie were at the divider rumbling at each other. Milo is still young so he's desperate to be with others so he's trying to find his way in, but all Brownie does is rumble at the divider and both Brownie and Oreo attempted to nose punch Milo while he was chewing on the divider. It makes me wonder if the two can possibly work it out just without Milo since both of them seemed to have agreed to not like him so it's unsure on where they stand

Putting Brownie and Oreo back together, they don't nip at each other like they did with Milo. Oreo gets a little more physical than Brownie but still don't get rude about it like they did with Milo and both of them seem to know when to back down. I'm not sure if I'm just interrupting and making things worse or actually fixing the problem

Which two are together? I’m reading it that brownie and Oreo are in one cage and Milo is in the other?
You may not need to divide into three - provided two are ok together then they can remain as a pair and a single.
As you’ve currently got a 3x7, then you just need to put a divider in to make a 4x3 for the pair and a 3x3 for the single.

Nipping without breaking the skin is a gesture of power, not biting or attacking.
Biting is when wounds are occurring.

So interactions at the divider are not indicators of like or dislike - they can be interactions or they can be territory marking behaviours.

You need to put two of them on neutral territory - somewhere other than the cage - and leave them for several hours and see how things go. If they are ok after several hours, then clean down the cage they are to live in and move them back to it together.

 

[Hundo]

Which two are together? I’m reading it that brownie and Oreo are in one cage and Milo is in the other?
You may not need to divide into three - provided two are ok together then they can remain as a pair and a single.

Nipping without breaking the skin is a gesture of power, not biting or attacking.
Biting is when wounds are occurring.

So interactions at the divider are not indicators of like or dislike - they can be interactions or they can be territory marking behaviours.

You need to put two of them on neutral territory - somewhere other than the cage - and leave them for several hours and see how things go. If they are ok after several hours, then clean down the cage they are to live in and move them back to it together.

It's all one cage, just has a a divider in it to separate. The two together right now are Brownie and Oreo while Milo is on his own for now. You say it's a power move, at least that clears that up thank you for clarifying that for me! I'll be sure to try and get them in the same area soon and see how it goes. Again thank you so much for the words!

 

[Piggies&buns]

It's all one cage, just has a a divider in it to separate. The two together right now are Brownie and Oreo while Milo is on his own for now. You say it's a power move, at least that clears that up thank you for clarifying that for me! I'll be sure to try and get them in the same area soon and see how it goes. Again thank you so much for the words!

If Brownie and Oreo are together and are doing well together (just displaying normal dominance behaviours) then you may not need to do anything. Just leave things as they are, and won’t worry about interactions with milo at the divider.

If you are in any doubt as to the compatibility of brownie and Oreo then you do a temporary separation for a few days and then put them on neutral territory and allow them to make up their minds about their future (all of this as per the information in the ‘bonds in trouble’ guide)

 

[Swissgreys]

You have had some great advice above, and it is clear you love your boys very much and want to do the absolute best for them.
It is also worth really taking the time to read thorough the guides that have been linked to about how to tell the difference between aggression and normal dominance behaviours.

Honestly, like you I sometimes find their way of establishing and maintaining a hierarchy pretty 'dramatic' but in time you will realise it is just their own way of working things out. They need a hierarchy to function, and keeping this in balance can be an ongoing process.

I would second the comment about not reading too much into what happens at the dividing grids.
I had a very dominant piggy who eventually ended up on her own, and would often lay at the bars. One of the pigs in the other cage adored her and would always come over to rumble at her. I thought this meant she was seeking out his company, but it was just her establishing her power over the 'shared' wall. Sometimes he would come up to the bars to look for her and she would walk slowly towards him and then veer off at the last minute, and sometimes she would wander over and try to bite his face off - she wasn't blessed with great social skills, but she was always in charge!

I would be tempted to leave Brownie and Oreo together with minimal change and stress for a while (no full cage cleans or floor time) and see if they can still get along happily. Once their relationship has settled down then you can think about what to do with Milo.
You could certainly keep is as a single with contact through the bars, but the other options would be to consider getting him a boar friend of his own or handing him over to a good quality rescue for rehoming.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Absolutely - my two separated boys are always at the bars with each other. Rumbling, sniffing, wheeking, nose to nose at each other. It looks like a pair who want to be together but the truth is they would viciously fight if they got together (they’ve already had one fight hence the separation and it isn’t pretty)