Trio of sows & bonding problems

[Poppy'sMum]

I've decided I need my own thread lol!

I have Mum & daughter piggies & an "odd bod" Aby girl.

Chubster pig (Mum) is nearly 2, Daisy (baby daughter in my pic) aged 6 months & the odd bod Aby, Ziggy aged 7 months.

Chubster is lovely natured & gets on with both of the other two.

After a week when I first got them, Ziggy tried to dominate Chubbs, not a good idea & there was much chin ups & chasing. For 3 days it was pretty nerve-wracking Ziggy & Daisy didn't seem to hit it off well, there was hissing (never heard that before then!) chin ups, nipping & chasing, no blood drawn, all ears intact

After the 4th day it seemed to settle, with Daisy & Ziggy tolerating each other really.

Now Ziggy seems to be jealous of Daisy, she will chase her out of her bed, Daisy will squeak & although no obvious biting, Daisy had an abscess operated on this week & we can only put it down to Ziggy biting her bum!

Is this normal? Daisy was separate the night of her op, a day after bathing them, she was in the same cage but separated by grids so they could see each other. I had to let Daisy in with them the second night as she was frantically digging & biting the bars to get back with them

Now I have tried the Vicks on Ziggy's nose & Daisy's bum, it helped before but not this time it seems.

I am worried Daisy is depressed/lonely, we do have her out for cuddles as she is very friendly so wondered if our smell is upsetting Ziggy?

I can put up a video of them together, they seem happy enough when in the indoor run. Ziggy chases Daisy off a few times in a day, she still gets to eat with them, separate bowls etc. It isn't constant though, is that a good sign?

Any advice appreciated. I can't bath them together at the moment as Daisy's wound has to heal.
Thanks!

 

[piggyfan]

I think you are just going to have to wait until she is better and then rebond them on neutral ground. It is very unfortunate she is unwell and has to be separated. This always causes fall outs. When she is well you can try to rebond them and perhaps bath them together too. In the meantime I would give her extra cuddles and time with you so she is not so lonely.

 

[Abi_nurse]

It sounds like normal sow behaviour to me. Girls will often chase each other or nip etc. All sows will have a hiarachy system and usually when the less dominant girl steps out of line the dominant sows will put them back in line. So long as blood isnt drawn i wouldnt seperate. I dont know about the abscess but it could have been something like a sebacious cyst. The squeaking while being chased is a sign of submission rather than pain. Have a read of this about sow behaviour...

http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38561

x.

 

[milhaven]

I agree with piggyfan that sometimes when one is poorly and/or a bit vulnerable the others can take advantage a bit. I've seen this happen many times. When Daisy is all better and see how things settle. Big hugs for Daisy x

 

[Wiebke]

Ziggy is VERY intent on making clear that she is #2 in the hierarchy and that Daisy is not going to pass her. If this behaviour is continuing it is in the amber alert band; for a short while, it is not unusual, but it should die down eventually to a more casual level.

Make sure that Daisy is putting on weight as she should. Trios can be difficult.

 

[milhaven]

Hopefully things will settle but if it continues or progresses there is always an option of finding Daisy a new friend. I have a trio in the rescue at the moment who are inseperable but I've had others who bicker, their behaviour depends on their personalities.

 

[Poppy'sMum]

I think you are just going to have to wait until she is better and then rebond them on neutral ground. It is very unfortunate she is unwell and has to be separated. This always causes fall outs. When she is well you can try to rebond them and perhaps bath them together too. In the meantime I would give her extra cuddles and time with you so she is not so lonely.

Yes she gets lots of extra cuddles, but i did wonder if that was part of the problem as maybe Ziggy thinks she smells of humans not piggies? Maybe we should cuddle Ziggy lots more to get our scent on her too?

It sounds like normal sow behaviour to me. Girls will often chase each other or nip etc. All sows will have a hiarachy system and usually when the less dominant girl steps out of line the dominant sows will put them back in line. So long as blood isnt drawn i wouldnt seperate. I dont know about the abscess but it could have been something like a sebacious cyst. The squeaking while being chased is a sign of submission rather than pain. Have a read of this about sow behaviour...

http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38561

x.

I was beginning to wonder if Daisy was being a bit of a drama queen rolleyes

However since the abscess I am worried :... I took her to Simon Maddock who is an excellent vet & he agreed he thought it was the result of a bite, as the abscess went very deep & we found a small scab on Daisy's lower back a couple of weeks before.

I agree with piggyfan that sometimes when one is poorly and/or a bit vulnerable the others can take advantage a bit. I've seen this happen many times. When Daisy is all better and see how things settle. Big hugs for Daisy x

Thank you! If not I hope a rescue somewhere has some single ladies lol

Ziggy is VERY intent on making clear that she is #2 in the hierarchy and that Daisy is not going to pass her. If this behaviour is continuing it is in the amber alert band; for a short while, it is not unusual, but it should die down eventually to a more casual level.

Make sure that Daisy is putting on weight as she should. Trios can be difficult.

Do you think once her wound has healed that I should bath Ziggy & Daisy together ?
If I decide to get Daisy a friend would a foursome work or would I be better having 2 pairs if space allows?
Or should I leave Daisy & Mum together & get Ziggy a friend instead?
Thanks!

 

[piggyfan]

Why dont you wait until she is well and see if they can be re bonded. If they cannot then you can think about separating and making two groups of two. I really think it is worth bathing them together. If you hold the girls each day they will be used to your smell and you cuddling one a little more will not make any difference.

 

[Wiebke]

With sows, a bath is not necessary; it serves mainly to wash all the testosterone laden pee and boar glue out of boars' coats after a bust up.

Give the behaviour two weeks to die down; that is about the time hierarchy disputes tend to settle.

Whether a foursome works out or not, depends very much on the character combination, but with four piggies, you have the possibility to split them into working pairs if necessary.

Alternatively, you could think about dating your three girls with a neutered boar in RNGP Welfare Rugby and see whether that works. I have piggy dated at Tracy's several times, always with good success, whether it was a bereaved sow or cataract girls with attitude looking for a husboar. A boar is quite good at absorbing some of the girly bickering!

 

[Poppy'sMum]

I think you are just going to have to wait until she is better and then rebond them on neutral ground. It is very unfortunate she is unwell and has to be separated. This always causes fall outs. When she is well you can try to rebond them and perhaps bath them together too. In the meantime I would give her extra cuddles and time with you so she is not so lonely.

It sounds like normal sow behaviour to me. Girls will often chase each other or nip etc. All sows will have a hiarachy system and usually when the less dominant girl steps out of line the dominant sows will put them back in line. So long as blood isnt drawn i wouldnt seperate. I dont know about the abscess but it could have been something like a sebacious cyst. The squeaking while being chased is a sign of submission rather than pain. Have a read of this about sow behaviour...

http://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38561

x.

I agree with piggyfan that sometimes when one is poorly and/or a bit vulnerable the others can take advantage a bit. I've seen this happen many times. When Daisy is all better and see how things settle. Big hugs for Daisy x

Ziggy is VERY intent on making clear that she is #2 in the hierarchy and that Daisy is not going to pass her. If this behaviour is continuing it is in the amber alert band; for a short while, it is not unusual, but it should die down eventually to a more casual level.

Make sure that Daisy is putting on weight as she should. Trios can be difficult.

Thanks everyone, I think maybe it is a combination of Daisy being the youngest & us feeling she is being picked on whereas probably this is the way a herd works as opposed to a pair, something we haven't experienced before of course rolleyes

So far there hasn't been any ear damage, that is usually a bad sign isn't it? Our first pair took chunks out of one another's ears

When Daisy was confined, strangely Ziggy would kiss her between the bars, so this chasing is bizarre to say the least! Daisy was so desperate to get back with them that we had to let her back in after the first night apart as she was chewing the bars & trying to dig her way back to them!

 

[Poppy'sMum]

Okay so today hasn't been very good :...

This morning I gave Daisy her Zithromax as usual, now I don't know if it's the smell of this on her that the other two don't like?

Anyway, I then put her back & gave them fresh veggies, hay etc. They all gave me the stinky eyes :0 They haven't eaten their fresh food completely, by this time it's always completely gone! What is wrong with them? Both Chubbs & Ziggy have been nipping Daisy & chasing her away. I feel so sorry for her! I put in a new grassy tunnel & hoped that would distract them... no chance

I have resorted to taking all the hideys away, & I will take their hammocks down if needs be, as anywhere she hides they chase her out.

Should I take Ziggy out for an hour or so to give Daisy a rest? I don't want to remove Daisy as that just seems to make things worse. At the moment they are quiet as they have nowhere to hide so they are all moving around/sleeping independently, so I don't think I should separate her just yet.

I will say strangely Daisy never appears to have had a season, she has never done the rumblestrut or anything like the other two do. She is definitely is a she though. Is that why they treat her differently?

Tomorrow is clean out day so I am going to strip the whole cage & wash everything in it, give it a good clean & hope they are nicer to each other

 

[Poppy'sMum]

Just thought I'd update this as I feel like I am becoming a piggy psychoanalyst lol rolleyes

Well, Daisy has been following Chubbs (her mum) around a lot, trying to eat her poops, presumably because of the antibiotics she's been on after her operation. I have been offering her Chubb's poops which she has devoured, as she hates the taste of the probiotic.

Now all seems very settled, there is the odd squeak from Daisy if Chubbs shoves her out of her way or she gets too annoying, pestering Chubbs for her poops (not nice when you are trying to eat your pellets with a youngster's nose permanently attached to your bum lol!)

The dynamics of the group has changed slightly; Daisy seems to be more included, she sleeps next to Chubbs much more, like they are properly related. The other one, Ziggy is now slightly distant from them, but is fine in their company & doesn't seem to be chasing Daisy much at all. Now whether this is because Daisy is always near Chubbs & Ziggy won't challenge the top pig I don't know ?

I don't think Ziggy & Daisy will ever be really friendly, which is a shame as they are the two I wanted to be a "pair" & ended up with Chubbs as well. I've even seen Daisy sleeping in the same end as Ziggy & there has been no trouble.

What strange creatures they are & what complicated relationships they have lol

 

[Guinea pig slave]

Glad that things have settled down with your girls, they can be bossy little devils when they feel like it rolleyes

 

[Wiebke]

Now you know why I am a group addict - piggy dynamics are just so fascinating and forever shifting. I am glad to hear that Daisy is better and settling in well. it all sounds perfectly normal.

 

[Poppy'sMum]

Glad that things have settled down with your girls, they can be bossy little devils when they feel like it rolleyes

Yes, you're right! I hope you can fit Sally into your group somewhere, it definitely helps with all the neutral ground stuff & washing everything I think! Ziggy particularly "scents" a lot more than the others, marking the territory as she goes rolleyes

 

[Poppy'sMum]

Now you know why I am a group addict - piggy dynamics are just so fascinating and forever shifting. I am glad to hear that Daisy is better and settling in well. it all sounds perfectly normal.

Thank you, her side still looks very sore where she picked the scab off yesterday. I have bathed it with a saline solution today, it looks a lot better & less raw thank goodness. I have also been deliberately having Ziggy out for more cuddles so she gets more used to us, she is definitely very nervous & being an Aby more excitable & twitchy anyway She still acts like a pig on springs |)