Trio Bonding - 2 Sows 1 Boar - Fighting

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Shauny

Shauny

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Hi, I need some advice please.

A couple of weeks ago I brought Silly Billy home from @PiggyOinkOink, he had been castrated about 3 weeks before I got him, an he has spent the past 2 weeks living in a c&c cage split down the middle next to the girls. All was well during that time, the girls seemed just as interested in him as he was of them. They were sniffing lots through the bars and even the odd sleeping side by side.

It was 5 weeks since his op yesterday, so today I introduced them properly. I've read all the guides on here and watch YouTube videos. They were introduced on neutral ground in my kitchen an all went. They were in the run for over 6hrs with only the odd mount from Billy, but the girls quickly told him were to go. He was doing lots of rumble strutting though, but the girls seemed fine with it.

So I cleaned the cage up an re-arranged it so it was all 'new' an popped all three back in, this is when it went wrong. Coco clearly recognised it as her cage still an was NOT happy with Billy rumble strutting here. She pretty much instantly started display strong dominance behaviour an even tried to mount poor billy herself. Whilst billy was not showing as much aggressive signs he also wasn't backing down either, this led to coco lunging at him. He must've done it so quick as a reaction to being lunged at but he ended up biting Coco an drawing blood just under her lip. I quickly intervened and cleaned coco's cut out with warm salty water. A gave her a cuddle for bit an sorted there evening veg out an put her back in with the other 2. (taffy and billy are perfectly fine with each other). After the food was all eaten however coco started on billy again, so he's separated onto the top of the cage.

What I would like to know is, is this it? Has the bonding failed? I've read on here that separating over night an trying again might help. The girls can still go up the ramp an see billy through the bars; which they both have been doing a lot (he was separated around 8pm). With the bars between them coco is far less aggressive/assertive and i'm sure he only bit her as a defence reaction.

I'm really not too sure what's the best thing to do from here, should I try them again in the morning?
 
Will tag @Wiebke into this thread, I am sure she will be around tomorrow. There is nothing Wiebke doesn't know about bonding, she is an absolute sage on the subject.
 
I'd wait for someone with more experience, but please be aware, 6 weeks from neutering is the reccomended time. My 3 bonded fine after neutering, I was lucky!
 
Please give all piggies some time (ideally a few days and definitely more than a night!) to settle down again. DO NOT conduct any intros in a cage, unless it is brand new and doesn't carry any piggy scent at all, or you are bound to see much more aggressive reactions as the home is defended against intruders. Doing intros in a neutral space that is not part of anypig's normal territory is absolutely essential.

Thankfully, with cross gender bonds, you can restart bonding and do it slowly, but whether it is going to work or not depends very much whether it was a full-on bite or just a scratch and whether the two can settle the dominance or not. Not all boars and sows click necessarily. I have had to reshuffle my existing piggies a few times when the dominance issue could not be sorted amicably. Best see how they react when you have them next to each other on your lap (ove gloves at the ready) before you re-start any bonding. If there are hositilities, I would not proceed with a bonding session; it is not going to work!

Here are our bonding tips; please read them carefully.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/faq-introducing-and-re-introducing-guinea-pigs.38562/
 
Hi @Wiebke, thanks for the response. I'll give them a few days to settle down before trying again then. Should I block off contact through the mesh grid, or is okay for them to still see each other through the bars?

I've re-read over those tips so many times; I'm still just a bit nervous though as I've never done anything like this before. The original intro was on neutral ground and all was fine for 6hrs.

Coco's wound didn't look deep but does look long, she's all white so seeing the blood was quite a shock to me; though I don't think it was a lot or anything. She was also very well behaved letting me wash it out.
 
It is OK if they see each other through the bars, that way, they have a chance at getting any smaller bad feelings out of their system first.

Please disinfect the wound with saline solution, either readymade antiseptic one from the pharmacy or made at home by mixing in one tablespoon of salt into 1 pint/500ml of boiled, cooled water. Hibiscrub is another disinfectant you can use.

It sounds like scratch rather than a bite, which can happen if a piggy cannout get out of the way quickly enough during bonding. That can be worked past. Full-on bites usually can't. ;)
 
Hi, so it's been over 48hrs since the intial bust up. Tried them on the couch during lap time and unfortunately is didn't go well. Lots of very load teeth chattering, rumble strutting, snorting, puffed up fur and standing on hind legs as if to lunge. This was from both of them as soon as they saw each other. I tried to leave them as long as possible but coco started to lunge again so had to separate.

I understand they're not ever likely to be friends. I'm now left with a very tough decision, I really don't want to have to re-home Billy but I do need to think about what's best for him. He does get along very well with taffy, right now they are in the run together, zooming and popcorning. But of course Taffy and Coco have been together since babies and are best friends so I don't want to separate them.

Eeek, what would you's do? (Fyi other half really doesn't want to get another guineapig pig - though he may cave).
 
It is so very difficult offering advice on a public forum, especially when your advice contradicts that of others!

How sure are you that your guinea pigs are not going to bond, @Shauny ?!
 
try separating coco. separate cage for the night. it may help. may not. should try everything first right.
i had problem with turtle, so we separated them, different cages right next to each other so they could still see each other and chat and sniff, a little like time out.
when i put them back together turtle was way better.
from what i read putting coco in time out may help. or may not.
 
You can try again at a later times - but there are no guarantees. if it is ever going to work, it won't be quick or anytime soon from their reaction on your lap.

Personally, I have found that once things have come to a head and a sow has decided against a piggy, she rarely changes her mind, as much as you try (and I have tried lots!)
I have managed to get difficult bondings going if it was more a case of working through fear-aggression issues, but had to declare defeat more than once if it came down to a matter of dominance with neither piggy giving in or accepting the other, especially once it has come to blows.
 
@Guinea-pigGaga as it stands right now she's not going to accept him. As for the future I'm not sure.

In the mean time, is it okay to let Taffy and Billy have a couple hours play together per day? Or will that upset Coco if Taffy is coming back smelling of Billy? I did let taffy and billy play for 2&1/2 hrs last night, and Coco started popcorning when taffy came back.

Thanks for everyones help, it's really appreciated :)
 
Shauny said:
@Guinea-pigGaga as it stands right now she's not going to accept him. As for the future I'm not sure.

In the mean time, is it okay to let Taffy and Billy have a couple hours play together per day? Or will that upset Coco if Taffy is coming back smelling of Billy? I did let taffy and billy play for 2&1/2 hrs last night, and Coco started popcorning when taffy came back.

Thanks for everyones help, it's really appreciated :)
Click to expand...

You can let them play if they get on, especially if they are really fond of each other. You have to Play these things by ear and see whether they mess up the Dynamics or not.
 
Oh god, I just read this now and am a little shocked! Silly Billy was never aggressive against even any of my boars and would be the one to get bullied and pushed around. I'm not sure why he is acting that way except that maybe its a reaction to Coco's dominance/dislike. I know with my friends piggies that there can be jealousy going on so it could be this also.

I'm sorry to hear it doesn't seem to be working with Coco & Billy. I guess I'm not really qualified to suggest anything and Wiebke etc know best. I hope a solution can be found!

I have some dominance issues with my trio of girls, despite 2 of them being sisters (also Silly Billy's sisters) and together since birth. One of the sisters Oreo, is not liked by the others but tbh she is like her mother, naughty, selfish and a troublemaker! She won't go into a house if her sister, Coco, is in it, is the only one that rumblestruts and I have recently heard them chatter at each other more than usual but it never leads to blows. Despite this tension, they seem able to tolerate each other.

As a last resort, if u would like to try and pair Silly Billy with his sister Oreo then let me know as I had thought of rehoming her before when I realised she was the 3's a crowd of the trio lol

Btw hopefully its fine.. but 6wks is what the vet recommended after castration.
 
Just tried again this morning an it didn't go well. They were put in my kitchen on freshly mopped and dried tile floor with a huge plate of veg.

It was an hr and half of teeth chattering and rumble strut-offs, during which time coco took 2 mouth fulls of fur from poor Billy's backside. Both of which have caused him to bleed a little. So I've separated them again and have cleaned him out with warm salty water.

I did think about the bonding bath but I'm really not confident enough to do that; coco has had baths before and she hates it so becomes a slippery wriggly mess trying to jump out.
 
If the piggies were mine, I would not try again and find another solution for them instead. Not every piggy clicks. Some dominant sows can be very difficult to pair up; I have some myself!

It is always a very gutting realisation. :(
 
Oh no..poor Silly Billy no mates! Everyone always wants to attack him and rip his hair out :mal::hug:

I have a very dominant sow too and she never ever played play nice with anyone (male or female) and just would end up attacking everyone, even her brothers/sisters when I got them at only 6wks old..fortunately, she was a calculating one and got her claws on my Benji early (being the eldest and most dominant at the time) and is fine with him so he's her life partner now.

What are you going to decide to do about Silly Billy now?

..If you want to keep him you are welcome to try him with his sister Oreo. The two other sows don't like her but tolerate her so that's why she might be happier with Silly Billy.
 
@Wiebke No worries I won't be trying them again. It's fairly obvious now Coco just doesn't like him.

It's such a shame as Taffy adores him! Taffy and Billy have just had a couple of hrs in the run together but they spent most of the time cuddling in the pet carrier. Taffy is a proper cuddly piggie and she doesn't get this type of attention from Coco.

I take it it's easier to find cage mates for piggies that are less dominate? Should Taffy stay with coco as it'll be harder to find coco a new friend?

@PiggyOinkOink I will need to work on my other half (whom you met when we picked up Silly Billy), he's pretty set against a 4th guinea pig. I have one option that he might like - as it would mean he gets the living room back and all the pigs stay in the kitchen in a double decked cage - but if he doesn't like that idea then I don't know how to convince him.
 
Shauny said:
@Wiebke No worries I won't be trying them again. It's fairly obvious now Coco just doesn't like him.

It's such a shame as Taffy adores him! Taffy and Billy have just had a couple of hrs in the run together but they spent most of the time cuddling in the pet carrier. Taffy is a proper cuddly piggie and she doesn't get this type of attention from Coco.

I take it it's easier to find cage mates for piggies that are less dominate? Should Taffy stay with coco as it'll be harder to find coco a new friend?

@PiggyOinkOink I will need to work on my other half (whom you met when we picked up Silly Billy), he's pretty set against a 4th guinea pig. I have one option that he might like - as it would mean he gets the living room back and all the pigs stay in the kitchen in a double decked cage - but if he doesn't like that idea then I don't know how to convince him.
Click to expand...

I hope that you can talk your hub around to the two-tiered cage solution! If you want to find a new mate for Coco, I would strongly recommend that you take her dating at East Peckham Guinea Pig rescue under expert supervision. That way, you come home only with a new mate if there has been acceptance and are at no risk of ending up with more piggies that don't get on. This will hopefully also placate your husband! Coco may accept a younger, smaller, very submissive piggy.
Otherwise, I would strongly recommend to leave her and Taffy together as that is a pairing that works, and rather find a different solution for Billy.
 
Well I think a double cage would def take up much less space than your 3x5 C&C you said you had. If you got either 2 x 120cm cages and stacked them on top of each other or a 120cm double storey then that might work. Only thing is that the double storeys I have seen 99% of the time are not separate and the top tray has a hole in for ramp access with a raised plastic barrier to stop them falling in like this. If you could cut this raised barrier out then make a coroplast base to inlay it with then that could work. I have seen this one also and someone says in the reviews that they have been able to use it as 2 separate cages quite easy. I have read some members on here have this cage too. I was considering getting the 3 storey one but it only comes in 100cm and not 120cm.

You could also split your existing cage in two but I imagine your hubby would prefer the living room back and the two cage solution. Could you not put a double storey cage in the living room considering how much space it would save?
 
It's taken all week but I think I managed to convince him that getting Billy a friend (rather than rehoming) is the best thing do to.

We've decided on taking apart the current cc cage, buying another box of grids and building a new double decked 2x4 cc cage in the kitchen.

Now all that really needs to be sorted is geting Silly Billy a forever friend at last.
 
Ah that's a result! The double decked cage IS expensive so C&C would be cheaper and larger. It would be good to see how you create the double deck as it looked too difficult to me without a frame to support it as I was thinking of similar myself, but then thought a 2/3 decked cage would be sturdier.

Did u want to try with his sister? The 2 other girls really dislike her and bully her a lot I realised yesterday..thou she is a character and a naughty one so they probably have their reasons lol Her sister, Coco, really does not like her and Oreo will never go in the same house as her as otherwise Coco hits her and chatters in annoyance. Little Mrs is more tolerant but yesterday I heard squeaking and realised she was bullying Oreo. Fortunately, she's not such a pushovers like Silly Billy and can hold her ground sometimes..Not sure if this is normal behaviour in a sow trio..

I know some people would still keep them together as there is tolerance at some level but I feel sorry for her so think maybe it's better to rehome her as she must not be totally happy there.

If you want to try her as a friend for Silly Billy and see if they get on let me know..otherwise I will probably post her in the rehoming..Thou I am fond of her too :-\
 
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