Tried to bond our single neutered boar with 2 females, felt so bad for him! :( Any advice?

[emmyk89]

I have an 18 month old single neutered boar (who I got from someone online some months ago and he was in an awful tiny cage alone and we had him neutered months ago as we wanted to get him some friends, so he wasn't on his own the rest of his life, and had a choice of females too if he didn't find a male friend.

So 4 weeks ago, again there were 2 poor little girl pigs being sold online in a tiny cage (when we picked them up they were matted, one has an abcess and their wood shavings were soaking!) One is 6 months old (scoot) and the other is apparently her mother at 18 months old (Merlin) They have been vet checked.

They have been in separate cages in the same room since we got them, and have been out everyday in a run beside my boar with a divider for weeks now, none showed any sign of dominance not even a high pitched squeak and definitely no rumbling or chattering. Scoot was pipping (I call it that as it sounds like "pip pip" when they do their happy squeaks). In fact Reggie mostly ignored them and showed no aggression or dominace. We always put redigrass and hay right at the divider and they all sat ate nicely between the bars, for the last 2 weeks.

So today's the day we decide to let them meet without the divider. Everything is cleaned, we even bought a brand new blanket especially for the bonding so none of their scents were on anything. We clipped a towel over one side for "cover" .
All seemed to go well - we put hay, grass and veg in, reggie said hello to the pigs but all he was interested in was eating and it was like this for a bit. After the veg ran out, scoot then starts following reggie around, and sniffing his bum etc, then she would eat hay then back to following reggie. Sometimes reggie kinda jumps around when she did that as she startled him by poking him - everytime though when he knew who it was he just ran off to another hay pile and left her totally alone.

This behaviour from Scoot slowly escalates to non-stop chasing him, high pitched squealing and chattering (from her only) - even when reggie is just trying to sleep or eat hay at the far end of the pen she comes over to squeal (so loudly aswell) at him and eventually she continually lunges at him, dives on him and by now reggie is trying to jump out of the pen (we used C&C cube squares) he is that distressed.
He eventually starts chattering and squealing very loudly back, and all Scoot does is chase and chase, poke his behind, raise her head, lunge. He never once lunges back at her either - he just runs away and then eventually started chattering back - after running away.

I can't tell if this is normal or it was about to get nasty as the chattering from both got very loud at the end. Reggie literally ran away from her from the start and did not bother her whatsoever, he was totally relaxed at first as he attempted to lie down to sleep so many times but she just kept coming to him squealing whenever he lay down. I felt so bad for reggie after he started scrambling to get out of the actual pen we put the divider back and he's slept since (an hour literally), he was knackered because of it. They were all together for 2 hours.
Merlin the older female literally kept out of the way the whole time and was no issue at all (she is thr one with an abcess)

Scoot has been squealing at him since between the divider when he's got up for a drink and hay. She is definitely a female as the vets checked her over down there too.

Do we try again another day or is she being aggressive? I just felt really bad for reggie by the end as he was doing nothing to aggravate her. And nothing he did seemed to satisfy Scoot at all.
Why would she hound him like this? He left her totally alone and it was only at the very end he started chattering and squealing back

 

[munchmonster]

What an awful dilemma you have. I can't offer any advice but I am sure other forum members will be able to. Thank you for rescuing those poor piggies from the horrible life they had to endure. I do hope that one day soon they will settle in some configuration and live a happy life. I send my best wishes

 

[emmyk89]

What an awful dilemma you have. I can't offer any advice but I am sure other forum members will be able to. Thank you for rescuing those poor piggies from the horrible life they had to endure. I do hope that one day soon they will settle in some configuration and live a happy life. I send my best wishes

Aww thanks that means alot! Yeh I can't believe people keep pets like that, the vet said the abcess was most likely from an old injury aswell, so God knows where the poor thing got injured from and how the owners didn't notice!

 

[Wiebke]

I have an 18 month old single neutered boar (who I got from someone online some months ago and he was in an awful tiny cage alone and we had him neutered months ago as we wanted to get him some friends, so he wasn't on his own the rest of his life, and had a choice of females too if he didn't find a male friend.

So 4 weeks ago, again there were 2 poor little girl pigs being sold online in a tiny cage (when we picked them up they were matted, one has an abcess and their wood shavings were soaking!) One is 6 months old (scoot) and the other is apparently her mother at 18 months old (Merlin) They have been vet checked.

They have been in separate cages in the same room since we got them, and have been out everyday in a run beside my boar with a divider for weeks now, none showed any sign of dominance not even a high pitched squeak and definitely no rumbling or chattering. Scoot was pipping (I call it that as it sounds like "pip pip" when they do their happy squeaks). In fact Reggie mostly ignored them and showed no aggression or dominace. We always put redigrass and hay right at the divider and they all sat ate nicely between the bars, for the last 2 weeks.

So today's the day we decide to let them meet without the divider. Everything is cleaned, we even bought a brand new blanket especially for the bonding so none of their scents were on anything. We clipped a towel over one side for "cover" .
All seemed to go well - we put hay, grass and veg in, reggie said hello to the pigs but all he was interested in was eating and it was like this for a bit. After the veg ran out, scoot then starts following reggie around, and sniffing his bum etc, then she would eat hay then back to following reggie. Sometimes reggie kinda jumps around when she did that as she startled him by poking him - everytime though when he knew who it was he just ran off to another hay pile and left her totally alone.

This behaviour from Scoot slowly escalates to non-stop chasing him, high pitched squealing and chattering (from her only) - even when reggie is just trying to sleep or eat hay at the far end of the pen she comes over to squeal (so loudly aswell) at him and eventually she continually lunges at him, dives on him and by now reggie is trying to jump out of the pen (we used C&C cube squares) he is that distressed.
He eventually starts chattering and squealing very loudly back, and all Scoot does is chase and chase, poke his behind, raise her head, lunge. He never once lunges back at her either - he just runs away and then eventually started chattering back - after running away.

I can't tell if this is normal or it was about to get nasty as the chattering from both got very loud at the end. Reggie literally ran away from her from the start and did not bother her whatsoever, he was totally relaxed at first as he attempted to lie down to sleep so many times but she just kept coming to him squealing whenever he lay down. I felt so bad for reggie after he started scrambling to get out of the actual pen we put the divider back and he's slept since (an hour literally), he was knackered because of it. They were all together for 2 hours.
Merlin the older female literally kept out of the way the whole time and was no issue at all (she is thr one with an abcess)

Scoot has been squealing at him since between the divider when he's got up for a drink and hay. She is definitely a female as the vets checked her over down there too.

Do we try again another day or is she being aggressive? I just felt really bad for reggie by the end as he was doing nothing to aggravate her. And nothing he did seemed to satisfy Scoot at all.
Why would she hound him like this? He left her totally alone and it was only at the very end he started chattering and squealing back

Hi!

To be honest, it sounds like Scoot has made her mind up that she doesn't want him in her group. Once that happens, she won't ever change her mind again on that score unfortunately. Cross gender often start nicely but they can still fail 2-3 days down the line; yours has clearly failed in the hierarchy establishment phase. The top lady (Merlin) would have not been involved because her position is not in question but it sounds like Scoot is very much overreacting and Reggie is of course not happy about it, even though he is not aggressive at all.

I would try another session on another day, preferably NOT in an area that is part of their territory (if necessary, use the bathtub or shower base with a towel) but if tensions are very quickly right up there again, then the bonding has failed unfortunately.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

 

[emmyk89]

Hi!

To be honest, it sounds like Scoot has made her mind up that she doesn't want him in her group. Once that happens, she won't ever change her mind again on that score unfortunately. Cross gender often start nicely but they can still fail 2-3 days down the line; yours has clearly failed in the hierarchy establishment phase. The top lady (Merlin) would have not been involved because her position is not in question but it sounds like Scoot is very much overreacting and Reggie is of course not happy about it, even though he is not aggressive at all.

I would try another session on another day, preferably NOT in an area that is part of their territory (if necessary, use the bathtub or shower base with a towel) but if tensions are very quickly right up there again, then the bonding has failed unfortunately.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics

Hey, thanks for your reply.

Aww that's so sad, ofc we have the space for them to live separately, but I've known reggie alot longer and know him quite well and just feel bad for him going through that, all he wanted to do was sleep and chill.

From what I've seen of merlin and scoots relationship is that scoot seems to be the dominant one? She always shoves Merlin out of any bed or hide she is in - even when scoot herself is in one (she purposefully goes to find merlin and go in the bed/hide and merlin leaves. She steals Merlins food right from her too. She only ever seems to go to the food bowls whenever Merlin is eating something - scoot basically "takes over" the bowl and merlin leaves it. In fact merlin is underweight and we have been weighing them every week with scoot putting on alot more weight than Merlin, so we've been supervising veggi times constantly to try and make sure merlin gets her portion.
There are never any scuffles or any squealing from either of them when they're together either in their own cage or on floor time, part from the behaviour I've described above from Scoot

So you reckon she just decided she didn't like him? Rather than her trying to just dominate him? Like it was only after about an hour and 45 mins of scoots chasing that reggie started chattering back, but even when he chattered it was always after he had ran away from her

 

[Wiebke]

Hey, thanks for your reply.

Aww that's so sad, ofc we have the space for them to live separately, but I've known reggie alot longer and know him quite well and just feel bad for him going through that, all he wanted to do was sleep and chill.

From what I've seen of merlin and scoots relationship is that scoot seems to be the dominant one? She always shoves Merlin out of any bed or hide she is in - even when scoot herself is in one (she purposefully goes to find merlin and go in the bed/hide and merlin leaves. She steals Merlins food right from her too. She only ever seems to go to the food bowls whenever Merlin is eating something - scoot basically "takes over" the bowl and merlin leaves it. In fact merlin is underweight and we have been weighing them every week with scoot putting on alot more weight than Merlin, so we've been supervising veggi times constantly to try and make sure merlin gets her portion.
There are never any scuffles or any squealing from either of them when they're together either in their own cage or on floor time, part from the behaviour I've described above from Scoot

So you reckon she just decided she didn't like him? Rather than her trying to just dominate him? Like it was only after about an hour and 45 mins of scoots chasing that reggie started chattering back, but even when he chattered it was always after he had ran away from her

I would consider whether Merlin and Reggie would get on as a bonded pair and whether Scoot would do better on her own in an adjoining cage with interaction through the bars as she clearly has issues. Three quarters of an hour of nonstop chasing are a very clear sign that acceptance has not happened.

 

[emmyk89]

I would consider whether Merlin and Reggie would get on as a bonded pair and whether Scoot would do better on her own in an adjoining cage with interaction through the bars as she clearly has issues. Three quarters of an hour of nonstop chasing are a very clear sign that acceptance has not happened.

That crossed my mind aswell to be honest. I would hate for scoot to be a lone pig aswell though, I'm sure there is another pig out there she would get on with haha. Maybe she just needs some growing up to do? She is still bit fearful of humans and skittish too whenever we approach the cage, even with bags of food it takes her ages to come out of her hidey.

Since my post we have put them in adjoining C&C cages on Sunday and she hasn't uttered a squeek at him. When we first put them in their new cage, she did go up to reggie at the bars as he was close up to the bars too, and she lay down? Head up though. I've read your guide you posted and other guides but I don't really get what that is I know its mentioned?

I have a WiFi camera setup aswell whilst we're at work to watch them lol We doubled the height of the divider too - as a total precaution but you never know lol She doesn't appear to bother him at all

 

[Wiebke]

That crossed my mind aswell to be honest. I would hate for scoot to be a lone pig aswell though, I'm sure there is another pig out there she would get on with haha. Maybe she just needs some growing up to do? She is still bit fearful of humans and skittish too whenever we approach the cage, even with bags of food it takes her ages to come out of her hidey.

Since my post we have put them in adjoining C&C cages on Sunday and she hasn't uttered a squeek at him. When we first put them in their new cage, she did go up to reggie at the bars as he was close up to the bars too, and she lay down? Head up though. I've read your guide you posted and other guides but I don't really get what that is I know its mentioned?

I have a WiFi camera setup aswell whilst we're at work to watch them lol We doubled the height of the divider too - as a total precaution but you never know lol She doesn't appear to bother him at all

What you have observed is what I call a territorial power lie-in. It is a behaviour that is not well known and mostly misinterpretated as a friendly gesture. She is basically marking the edge of her territory and the start of the no-go zone for him.

While guinea pigs are wired to go feeding as a herd twice a day, they actually live in territorial small groups. I am currently writing on an article series for Guinea Pig Magazine, starting with the upcoming July issue about this not well known area of different social identities that nevertheless has huge consequences in terms of what works and what does not work for guinea pigs.

However, the fact that there are no outright hostilities means that she is happy with the way things are - as long as he stays on the other side of the divider.

 

[David Piggie Lover]

Sorry it failed. I've tried with 2 x 2 girls and after 15 mins it got too bad and even tho I told them it be a great home and more running room etc. . It was not to be.
Sorry. You sound great piggie slaves all the best.

 

[emmyk89]

What you have observed is what I call a territorial power lie-in. It is a behaviour that is not well known and mostly misinterpretated as a friendly gesture. She is basically marking the edge of her territory and the start of the no-go zone for him.

While guinea pigs are wired to go feeding as a herd twice a day, they actually live in territorial small groups. I am currently writing on an article series for Guinea Pig Magazine, starting with the upcoming July issue about this not well known area of different social identities that nevertheless has huge consequences in terms of what works and what does not work for guinea pigs.

However, the fact that there are no outright hostilities means that she is happy with the way things are - as long as he stays on the other side of the divider.

Ah yeh that was it, the power lie in. She did that quite alot when they were in the pen together on bonding day, never saw her do that though when they were out in the run side by side for weeks though haha. Little bugger! Hopefully she will be alright with other pigs as her cagemate merlin is alot older than her and will most likely die before her so she will need to make new friends eventually!

Such a shame aswell as Reggie is lovely! It's funny why she, or any pig, just decides they don't like another, I really do wonder what it is made her dislike him so much haha I know he didn't bother with either of them when they were et out together he just bumbled off to the hay piles to lie down and eat haha maybe scoot wanted more interaction from him

 

[Free Ranger]

You're not on your own... my planned threesome went down hill in spectacular style! See George's bonding: 50% success not enough

This was 6 months ago and I tried out various cage/bar combos and ended up rearranging my whole system as it's the first time I've had to keep pigs apart long term and we are really pushed for floor space. I was so gutted for my shy George who had been so pleased when they first arrived. I nearly split the two females as he was completely smitten with Louise and she with him... but I decided against it because I couldn't imagine finding another pig Zara would accept. There was aggro at the bars for a few days but once everyone realised they didn't have to worry about sharing space they chilled out. Fate brought us patchwork piggy Flora to re-home (the 'last piggy' from someone else) a month later and she accepted George. When the girls come out to eat together at the bars Flora joins them - and she can actually jump over but she doesn't.

They've settled down well. There have been a few interactions in the small back garden but that's likely because I change over pens and areas of grass a lot to give them some variety. The first time I deliberately tried George and Zara alone as they've been good neighbours for months now - they had plenty of space to keep them apart and loads of grass to keep them busy - but within a few minutes she was asserting herself and he was running so I split straight away. The last time was a breakout resulting in a 4-way Mexican standoff and Flora clearly sided with George - it's not romance but they are a good pair. I describe Zara as a 'red' (it would never work out with George), Louise and a 'green' and Flora as an 'amber'. Flora and George can roam round the kitchen and sit on the back door mat looking outside - the sow pair are penned in and reliant on me to take them anywhere else. They watch Flora disappearing round the corner with envy as there may be treats (although I'm very fair with the treats) but of course they are curious and would like to go too. That's life!