To syringe feed or not to syringe feed... Clover is getting old and bony

[PigglePuggle]

Just wondered if anyone with experience of old lady piggies with weight loss @Wiebke @VickiA and anyone else I've forgotten can advise when its time to decide to syringe feed regularly rather than just top up with a bit of extra high calorie veg and oats.
Clover is at least 4 and a half/ possibly probably older... she was our chunky big boss pig at about 1280g but over the past year she has shrunk and got bony, old sort of bony, just over a kilo now... no dramatic sudden weight loss, a steady decline of about 20g per month... she's seen the vet twice, they cant find anything wrong, a bit of mild discomfort and a bit stiff and slow to get going in a morning, but nothing the vet can pinpoint- nothing feels wrong in her tummy, teeth fine, heart fine, breathing fine, poops fine, appetite fine, no obvious tender painful joints... she's always first in the hay, and working from home I can see she eats hay practically all day, finishes her veg and pellet meals, just all a bit slower than she used to be. She was prescribed loxicom last week which seems to have brightened her up a bit, and she gets bonus food after her loxicom, but should I be syringe feeding? I want to put back all her previous chunky heft, but I'm worried if I start now I'd be doing it for the rest of her life, and maybe artificially fattening her up might hide whatever is going on? Something is up, but the vet can't find anything... she's often quite bright and lively and charging about but she seems to get tired quite quickly... nothing anyone would notice if they didnt know her well...
Should I be doing the recovery food? Maybe just a bit? Poor old girl, she does just seem... old now

 

[Siikibam]

I’m sorry Clover has been struck with the inexplicable weight loss. I don’t have experience but wanted to offer support. The positive is she’s still a little lively despite tiring quickly. Hearts

 

[PigglePuggle]

I’m sorry Clover has been struck with the inexplicable weight loss. I don’t have experience but wanted to offer support. The positive is she’s still a little lively despite tiring quickly. Hearts

Thank you! Its been so gradual too, first noticed around August/September that the other piggies all got fat in lockdown but Clover was slimmer... saw she'd slowly lost a fair bit but she was always a big hefty chunk and they had lots of salad scatterfeeds very few pellets over summer so I wasnt too worried... but this last 4 months she is a bit noticeably bony and slowing down...

 

[Merab]

I don’t have any advice as my old lady Merab never lost weight, she just got slower.
Jemimah’s weight loss was eventually discovered to be a tumour but that was about 5 months after the weight loss became noticeable and she’d been to the vet a couple of times before they could feel the tumour.

They can be a worry.
Hope Clover stops losing weight for you.

 

[Little Ones]

Have you and your vet discussed having a blood test, if you haven’t already had one? My four and a half year old lost a lot of weight over several months, we ended up investigating it and he was diagnosed with liver disease. Even though it wasn’t good news, it was peace of mind for us and helped us somewhat mentally prepare for the inevitable. He went from being 1500g to 800g. He lived 8 months from when he first began losing weight.
If your concern with the syringe feeding is that you’re masking the problem, then investigating it through a blood test would make the most sense as if there’s an answer to what is going on, it’s likely to be there. If it results in something untreatable, the syringe feeding would be to improve quality of life and health rather than ‘covering up’ the problem as you fear

 

[VickiA]

I have found with my oldies that they often develop what I call “vanishing pig syndrome” where they just get older and bonier, and much lighter. They do age quite dramatically in front of your eyes. If heart issues have been ruled out and she is already on metacam / loxicomand the vet can find no other cause, I don’t think I’d go down the route of other investigations unless advised by the vet. And even then, I’d want to know whether any test could reveal something treatable. Often their kidneys start to go, and even if identified there is no cure just limited treatment. So in short, if she’s happy as she is, you could offer her a top up feed if she wanted it, otherwise, just keep her comfy and happy with her friends.

 

[PigglePuggle]

I have found with my oldies that they often develop what I call “vanishing pig syndrome” where they just get older and bonier, and much lighter. They do age quite dramatically in front of your eyes. If heart issues have been ruled out and she is already on metacam / loxicomand the vet can find no other cause, I don’t think I’d go down the route of other investigations unless advised by the vet. And even then, I’d want to know whether any test could reveal something treatable. Often their kidneys start to go, and even if identified there is no cure just limited treatment. So in short, if she’s happy as she is, you could offer her a top up feed if she wanted it, otherwise, just keep her comfy and happy with her friends.

Thanks Vicki, that was my feeling too, she just seems to have got old- not definitively ill, just bony where there used to be muscle and she's slowed down and she's a bit stiff on cold mornings. I dont want to subject her to any invasive tests that wont affect the outcome, I dont want to have to make any difficult decisions for her!
I'll talk it all over with the vet of course, see if they might want to do a conscious xray maybe, that old leg break might be bothering her more than she lets on. They want to see Clover every month now anyway, and I'll see if she wants a few mls of recovery food at loxicom time.
She's just so not a lap piggy and gets so scared by vet trips, I think she is best left in peace with her friends with some pain relief and extra food if the vet can't find anything definite... I always thought Jezzy would be the one to age first, but Jezzy is blooming with floofy late middle age and Clover just shrunk!

 

[VickiA]

Thanks Vicki, that was my feeling too, she just seems to have got old- not definitively ill, just bony where there used to be muscle and she's slowed down and she's a bit stiff on cold mornings. I dont want to subject her to any invasive tests that wont affect the outcome, I dont want to have to make any difficult decisions for her!
I'll talk it all over with the vet of course, see if they might want to do a conscious xray maybe, that old leg break might be bothering her more than she lets on. They want to see Clover every month now anyway, and I'll see if she wants a few mls of recovery food at loxicom time.
She's just so not a lap piggy and gets so scared by vet trips, I think she is best left in peace with her friends with some pain relief and extra food if the vet can't find anything definite... I always thought Jezzy would be the one to age first, but Jezzy is blooming with floofy late middle age and Clover just shrunk!

The giveaway signs for old age vanishing pig syndrome are bony shoulders and a boney tail end. Holly, underneath all her aby floofy coat, now has bony shoulders and the start of a bony tail end.

 

[PigglePuggle]

Have you and your vet discussed having a blood test, if you haven’t already had one? My four and a half year old lost a lot of weight over several months, we ended up investigating it and he was diagnosed with liver disease. Even though it wasn’t good news, it was peace of mind for us and helped us somewhat mentally prepare for the inevitable. He went from being 1500g to 800g. He lived 8 months from when he first began losing weight.
If your concern with the syringe feeding is that you’re masking the problem, then investigating it through a blood test would make the most sense as if there’s an answer to what is going on, it’s likely to be there. If it results in something untreatable, the syringe feeding would be to improve quality of life and health rather than ‘covering up’ the problem as you fear

Thanks, but blood tests on guinea pigs are a very invasive procedure- having no tail vein like other rodents it requires sedation and inserting a needle into one of the main blood vessels in the neck or by the heart. Unless the vet specifically recommended this to test for something they could cure, I wouldnt personally opt for that myself in this case...

 

[VickiA]

Thanks, but blood tests on guinea pigs are a very invasive procedure- having no tail vein like other rodents it requires sedation and inserting a needle into one of the main blood vessels in the neck or by the heart. Unless the vet specifically recommended this to test for something they could cure, I wouldnt personally opt for that myself in this case...

Completely.

 

[PigglePuggle]

The giveaway signs for old age vanishing pig syndrome are bony shoulders and a boney tail end. Holly, underneath all her aby floofy coat, now has bony shoulders and the start of a bony tail end.

Yes its the bony shoulders especially! Clover always had a thick muscular neck and shoulder muscles like beef cattle bulls... but now she has dainty visible shoulder blades like Tallulah, also a waist which seems to surprise her how easily she can groom her back legs now! She still has a tummy and bum, but forward of that its all a bit bony...

 

[PigglePuggle]

I probably fuss too much, anyone who hadnt seen her in her muscular prime bossing the herd and claiming 3 out of 6 food bowls for herself and knocking over furniture with a rumbly hip sway and seen the heft and weight she used to carry would probably say she's fine... but to me she's bony and old now compared to how she was at her best!

 

[Hath]

As 3 out of my 4 boys are above 5 years old I can definitely see in two of them the impact of the muscle wastage caused by old age. My 7yrs old boy steadily lost weight and had xrays to rule out bladder stone after his UTI. Then I was watching him closely and noticed he wasn't eating as much hay as he used to since haybox had such a hit and miss quality. Now I pay more attention to his weight and he's eating enough as I found hay he likes. His weight is steady again. However, the boney hips are still there...

Now, Grandpa will be 10yrs old this year... He lost a lot of muscle mass about 3yrs ago and I was preparing for the worst, but since then his weight has been steady. He was seen by a vet last week and nothing obvious was found.

I agree, I wouldn't put such an old piggies through the invasive investigations if all I could do is to offer palliative care anyway.
My third boy is 5yrs old and biggest at 1,2kg
He's still chubby and not showing any sign of ageing.
Hope the goldies will stay with us for a bit longer ❤

 

[PigglePuggle]

As 3 out of my 4 boys are above 5 years old I can definitely see in two of them the impact of the muscle wastage caused by old age. My 7yrs old boy steadily lost weight and had xrays to rule out bladder stone after his UTI. Then I was watching him closely and noticed he wasn't eating as much hay as he used to since haybox had such a hit and miss quality. Now I pay more attention to his weight and he's eating enough as I found hay he likes. His weight is steady again. However, the boney hips are still there...

Now, Grandpa will be 10yrs old this year... He lost a lot of muscle mass about 3yrs ago and I was preparing for the worst, but since then his weight has been steady. He was seen by a vet last week and nothing obvious was found.

I agree, I wouldn't put such an old piggies through the invasive investigations if all I could do is to offer palliative care anyway.
My third boy is 5yrs old and biggest at 1,2kg
He's still chubby and not showing any sign of ageing.
Hope the goldies will stay with us for a bit longer ❤

Thank you, those are some impressive ages! I hope Clover will stabilise too at a new smaller old lady weight, and last a while yet with a bit of TLC and extra special foods... she's not dangerously thin but... I am so used to her being the big strong boss lady!

 

[Hath]

Thank you, those are some impressive ages! I hope Clover will stabilise too at a new smaller old lady weight, and last a while yet with a bit of TLC and extra special foods... she's not dangerously thin but... I am so used to her being the big strong boss lady!

I do hope that's the case. It's heartbreaking to see them slow down and age, but I also feel blessed seeing them though the golden years.
Grandpa is deaf (among other things) and he regularly gives me heart attack when I find him curled up and thinking the time had come only to rudely wake him up from his cozy dreams... He's not impressed and have to apologise with some nice veg...

Over the 10 years I have lost 4 boys before they reached ages of 5+. I do believe it's down to their genetics and since all were rescues I never got the chance to ensure they were given good care from the start.

 

[Little Ones]

Thanks, but blood tests on guinea pigs are a very invasive procedure- having no tail vein like other rodents it requires sedation and inserting a needle into one of the main blood vessels in the neck or by the heart. Unless the vet specifically recommended this to test for something they could cure, I wouldnt personally opt for that myself in this case...

That’s very true, it is quite invasive. Thankfully we’ve only ever needed a blood test to be done once. Honey was quite obviously ill though with his severe weight loss along with other symptoms, because of this having the blood test was the first thing they wanted to do. Even after we got his diagnosis of liver disease, I still had stool samples sent off - I held a lot of hope that we’d find something that had a cure. When he passed, I was blessed with a guilt-free passing, like I said though he was very noticeably sick. I don’t think I could’ve gone those 8 months of him being so ill without having investigated it, I imagine I would’ve been living with endless ‘what ifs’.
My comment was mainly directed at the part where you mentioned not wanting to mask the problem by keeping weight up with the syringe food. Which my point was that if there was an underlying problem, it would only be found really with a blood test as your vet has ruled out anything that could be found physically. And even then, it would likely be more for peace of mind than anything else. If that makes sense? I wasn’t suggesting that be your next step, just wondering if your vet had mentioned it.
I had forgotten completely about the vanishing pig syndrome, though. My two six year olds both teeter between 1050-1100 grams now. One I adopted not too long ago, however the one I’ve had since he was young weighed about 1300 in his prime. It wasn’t until I adopted a one year old a few months back that I realised truly how old the oldies are. Their face fat disappearing is a big difference for me, the oldies have a much clearer defined face as they seem to lose their double chin. Not to mention when you pick up an adult piggy and then your senior piggy, you suddenly are very aware of how frail and light they are - along with how bony they are. This decrease in muscle mass etc has to start somewhere and since your piggy is now in the senior category, the weight loss is to be expected I suppose.
It’s fortunate that your vet isn’t concerned about this weight loss and can’t detect any abnormalities. Old piggies might be a little slow but they’re still young at heart. One of my oldies still very much likes to do the zoomies albeit at a slower pace but still at a speed that surprises me for his age! They might be old but they still have a lot of fight in them, it’s just quite sad when you realise things are slowly coming to an end. I’m hoping my two six year olds got lucky with their genes and live a few more years! I wish your girl the very same thing

 

[Betsy]

My Patsy is getting very bony around her bum. She has had steady weight loss since I adopted her in September but the vet can find nothing wrong (on the numerous occasions I have taken her since then for her weight loss) and say she is the picture of health - I'm sure my vets think that I am a paranoid piggy Mum! She eats well, should be renamed poopy Patsy as she poops so much and is a very happy and lively piggy! I'm positive she is older than the 5 years the rescue said she was. They were told that she was 5 when she was surrended last July so that is all they had to go on but the rescue did say that it was a bit of Chinese Whispers as it was the 2nd surrender Patsy had had. She is now in her forever home and she is never going anywhere else except the Rainbow Bridge when her time is up.

 

[Wiebke]

Just wondered if anyone with experience of old lady piggies with weight loss @Wiebke @VickiA and anyone else I've forgotten can advise when its time to decide to syringe feed regularly rather than just top up with a bit of extra high calorie veg and oats.
Clover is at least 4 and a half/ possibly probably older... she was our chunky big boss pig at about 1280g but over the past year she has shrunk and got bony, old sort of bony, just over a kilo now... no dramatic sudden weight loss, a steady decline of about 20g per month... she's seen the vet twice, they cant find anything wrong, a bit of mild discomfort and a bit stiff and slow to get going in a morning, but nothing the vet can pinpoint- nothing feels wrong in her tummy, teeth fine, heart fine, breathing fine, poops fine, appetite fine, no obvious tender painful joints... she's always first in the hay, and working from home I can see she eats hay practically all day, finishes her veg and pellet meals, just all a bit slower than she used to be. She was prescribed loxicom last week which seems to have brightened her up a bit, and she gets bonus food after her loxicom, but should I be syringe feeding? I want to put back all her previous chunky heft, but I'm worried if I start now I'd be doing it for the rest of her life, and maybe artificially fattening her up might hide whatever is going on? Something is up, but the vet can't find anything... she's often quite bright and lively and charging about but she seems to get tired quite quickly... nothing anyone would notice if they didnt know her well...
Should I be doing the recovery food? Maybe just a bit? Poor old girl, she does just seem... old now

HUGS

It is a very hard one to call as something serious is clearly going on but diagnostics and medical support for guinea pigs are still lagging far behind and it is always a toss up whether any expensive testing is worth the effort as there is usually not much in the way of medications around that can buy you lots of time. My gut instinct would be an organ going wrong rather than an internal growth as the latter doesn't usually cause tiredness.

I usually offer added feed in the form of a bowl of mushed up pellets or a mix of recovery formula and pellets once or twice a day as a compromise for slowing down the weight loss but not being sucked down into the spiral of over-supporting past the point where your piggy has quality of life but not under-supporting and cutting a life shorter than it has to be.

Anyway, I have found that the will to live is easiest to gauge by giving mine free paw in controlling their support feed level themselves; even if it is feeding from a spoon instead of a syringe with piggies where it is a bit touch and go throughout a crisis but where prolonging life at any price is not necessarily the right choice unless and for as long as the piggy in question has really got the zest and will to live. A good day is a day any piggy of mine still has quite literally an appetite for life left as the most elementary measure I have available.

But this is something that everybody has to work out for themselves; having lost so many piggies over the years (thankfully many after a normal life span), you develop a set of parameters that work for you as a general guideline but you always take the specific situation and the piggy very much into consideration. There is never a single solution that fits all scenarios.

That said, quite a few oldies of mine have phase when they suddenly dump weight quite noticeably and become old bags of bones that can
go on for quite a long time (sometimes over a year of more). I do have them vet checked at that stage in the hope that anything more obvious or addressable can be caught - which you have also done. What is not normally present is the tiring aspect , which points to towards an underlying progressive health problem.

Fingers very firmly crossed!

 

[David Piggie Lover]

Sending you massive vibes.
Clover is lovely.
If she's pain free I'm sure she be here for a while. Xx

 

[alpacasqueak]

Bless little Clover, it is sad when you can see them ageing in front of you bless them.
Has she been diagnosed with any arthritis? I found with old lady Jess when her metacam was put up for her (much worse) spinal arthritis (and obviously her kidneys) she started gaining weight, only 40-50g but it was all the weight she’d lost after her eye op at nearly 7 and we never got it back on! Was a much more active little girly too.
Just a thought really, I’d obviously been giving her lots of extras and struggled so much with weight gain with her but that most definitely helped! Love and kisses to beautiful Clover x

 

[furryfriends (TEAS)]

Thanks, but blood tests on guinea pigs are a very invasive procedure- having no tail vein like other rodents it requires sedation and inserting a needle into one of the main blood vessels in the neck or by the heart. Unless the vet specifically recommended this to test for something they could cure, I wouldnt personally opt for that myself in this case...

Simon can usually get enough blood by over-cutting a nail, which saves the piggy having to undergo a more invasive procedure.

 

[Bill & Ted]

Thanks, but blood tests on guinea pigs are a very invasive procedure- having no tail vein like other rodents it requires sedation and inserting a needle into one of the main blood vessels in the neck or by the heart. Unless the vet specifically recommended this to test for something they could cure, I wouldnt personally opt for that myself in this case...

Simon at the Cat and Rabbit cuts a nail vein to get blood, don’t know if that would be an option for your vet? Never had it done and never done that myself (by mistake) I don’t know if that hurts much but probably better than sedation?
Ted got quite bony in his last year and was slightly stiff on his backend, it was noticeable after he was 5.
Hope it’s just old age and nothing else for Clover x Whoops just seen Debbie’s post

 

[PigglePuggle]

Bless little Clover, it is sad when you can see them ageing in front of you bless them.
Has she been diagnosed with any arthritis? I found with old lady Jess when her metacam was put up for her (much worse) spinal arthritis (and obviously her kidneys) she started gaining weight, only 40-50g but it was all the weight she’d lost after her eye op at nearly 7 and we never got it back on! Was a much more active little girly too.
Just a thought really, I’d obviously been giving her lots of extras and struggled so much with weight gain with her but that most definitely helped! Love and kisses to beautiful Clover x

The vet couldnt find any obviously painful bones or joints but I do think she has a few aches and pains in her joints as she's a bit stiff in a morning sometimes and she did arrive with us with the badly healed broken leg and a very lopsided walk- this improved to the point when it was barely noticeable after plenty exercise of soft fleecy flooring, but its always my first thought if she looks a bit out of sorts, if not the broken leg then her hips and good leg must have suffered a lot of joint strain keeping her upright when the other was broken!

 

[Merab]

 

[Tigermoth]

These pensioner piggies are a worry

 

[Siikibam]

How’s a Clover doing?

 

[Claire W]

Aw bless her x

 

[David Piggie Lover]

How is Clover . . pls

 

[PigglePuggle]

Clover seems ok at the moment thanks, I think the loxicom is helping her a lot, we have now graduated to getting a big bulk bottle from the vet that should last a month!
I'll try get a photo of her later when I bring out the giant bunch of parsley that piggy daddy tracked down at Asda! Parsley is Clover's absolute favourite and Sainsbury's have had no fresh herbs in stock for a couple of weeks now, so piggy daddy atruck gold this morning- 100g bunch of parsley and a bag of beansprouts

 

[David Piggie Lover]

Clover seems ok at the moment thanks, I think the loxicom is helping her a lot, we have now graduated to getting a big bulk bottle from the vet that should last a month!
I'll try get a photo of her later when I bring out the giant bunch of parsley that piggy daddy tracked down at Asda! Parsley is Clover's absolute favourite and Sainsbury's have had no fresh herbs in stock for a couple of weeks now, so piggy daddy atruck gold this morning- 100g bunch of parsley and a bag of beansprouts

Treats are special. . .
I've never given beansprouts . . I tho they need to be cooked. . I remember few years ago . .some old dears getting very ill eating uncooked . .
So piggies like them. . .