Thoughts on Low Calcium Diet?

Cuddles With Cavies

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Hiya,

If one issue crops up more with piggies than anything else, its kidney and bladder stones. It's a health problem that most of us have had to deal with or will have to at some point. There is a lot of debate surrounding it, with the most common thought that the problems are caused by too much calcium in the diet.

I, like many others, have spent hours researching ways to improve sludge and reduce the risk of stones. I was always told to use a low calcium diet, grain-free pellet food and rinse all veggies before feeding to increase water intake and urine out put. And whilst this seems to have worked for some of my pigs, I've had others who have still, almost constantly, struggled with sludge, crystals, stones and UTI's.

Saskia from Los Angeles Guinea Pig Rescue posted this video today discussing her view point on the old Low Calcium Diet debate and I thought she had some pretty interesting points.

In short, she suggests that a low calcium diet could actually be contributing to stones. As the most common type of stones are actually caused by Oxalate binding to calcium in order to be removed from the body. So in theory, if one increases the amount of calcium in the diet then more oxalate can be removed from the body quicker and thus preventing a build up and creating stones.

What are peoples thoughts on this and a low calcium diet in general?

I wasn't sure if this belonged in the food or health thread, so please move if necessary.
 
Hiya,

If one issue crops up more with piggies than anything else, its kidney and bladder stones. It's a health problem that most of us have had to deal with or will have to at some point. There is a lot of debate surrounding it, with the most common thought that the problems are caused by too much calcium in the diet.

I, like many others, have spent hours researching ways to improve sludge and reduce the risk of stones. I was always told to use a low calcium diet, grain-free pellet food and rinse all veggies before feeding to increase water intake and urine out put. And whilst this seems to have worked for some of my pigs, I've had others who have still, almost constantly, struggled with sludge, crystals, stones and UTI's.

Saskia from Los Angeles Guinea Pig Rescue posted this video today discussing her view point on the old Low Calcium Diet debate and I thought she had some pretty interesting points.

In short, she suggests that a low calcium diet could actually be contributing to stones. As the most common type of stones are actually caused by Oxalate binding to calcium in order to be removed from the body. So in theory, if one increases the amount of calcium in the diet then more oxalate can be removed from the body quicker and thus preventing a build up and creating stones.

What are peoples thoughts on this and a low calcium diet in general?

I wasn't sure if this belonged in the food or health thread, so please move if necessary.
I have watched the video from saskia, and I didn't dare to go back to a higher calcium diet, after I lost a boar from 3 bladder stones, unoperable. I think it all comes down to ratio of calcium and other stuff which I'm not clued up on in the diets. I gave up working it all out and decided il cross bridges when it comes to it. Right now I'm using a low calcium diet. Filtered water, grain free pellets, and not spinach or kale. Whether I'm wasting my time, I'm not sure.

Grass is another thing that I heard helps prevent bladder stones. A lady I know who has had pigs for years and runs a rescue, has never had a bladder stone pig, and let's her pigs graze all the time on the lawn and by picking grass.

Didn't saksia mention that she has never had many pigs with bladder stones or kidney stones, and has had 1000's of Guinea pigs in her care
 
I would take it with a pinch of salt to be honest, I haven't had time to sit and watch this new video but her previous video that I believe she has since deleted advising high calcium diets was based on research of human kidney stones, not calcium carbonate bladder stones in guinea pigs. I have my bladder stone piggy on the diet in the guides and hes doing really well, my IC piggy is also on the diet and her pain has greatly reduced. I dont believe in low calcium diets or high calcium diets, just properly balanced ones where possible.
 
I would take it with a pinch of salt to be honest, I haven't had time to sit and watch this new video but her previous video that I believe she has since deleted advising high calcium diets was based on research of human kidney stones, not calcium carbonate bladder stones in guinea pigs. I have my bladder stone piggy on the diet in the guides and hes doing really well, my IC piggy is also on the diet and her pain has greatly reduced. I dont believe in low calcium diets or high calcium diets, just properly balanced ones where possible.
Same with my I. C pig, along with using cytease for about 2 months now
 
I have watched the video from saskia, and I didn't dare to go back to a higher calcium diet, after I lost a boar from 3 bladder stones, unoperable. I think it all comes down to ratio of calcium and other stuff which I'm not clued up on in the diets. I gave up working it all out and decided il cross bridges when it comes to it. Right now I'm using a low calcium diet. Filtered water, grain free pellets, and not spinach or kale. Whether I'm wasting my time, I'm not sure

I'm kinda in the same boat. Lost a pig to stones so my five girls after that were on a low calcium diet. Three of them did well on it, two of them still constantly struggled with crystals and stones. It drove me insane that they were all on the same diet and yet three never had an issue and two were constantly at the vets with it. So these day, mine are on a low calcium diet just in case but I'm of the opinion that either they suffer with it or they don't.
 
I'm kinda in the same boat. Lost a pig to stones so my five girls after that were on a low calcium diet. Three of them did well on it, two of them still constantly struggles with crystals and stones. It drove me insane that they were all on the same diet and yet three never had an issue and two were constantly at the vets with it. So these day, mine are on a low calcium diet just in case but I'm of the opinion that either their suffer with it or they don't, and diet doesn't play much part.
I had two brother guinea pigs, both on the same diet, back then I was feeding them high calcium diets ( I was a beginner guinea pig keeper then). One got the 3 stones, the other no issues at all. I hate blumming stones, it's really was a harsh way to see a Guinea pig go downhill
 
I've messaged @Wiebke the other day about this. It bothered me that she was advising to feed the piggies a high calcium diet and disputing the low calcium diet. If you've read the comments in Saskia's post, loads are also against about high calcium diet.
 
I had two brother guinea pigs, both on the same diet, back then I was feeding them high calcium diets ( I was a beginner guinea pig keeper then). One got the 3 stones, the other no issues at all. I hate blumming stones, it's really was a harsh way to see a Guinea pig go downhill

I'm sorry for your loss. I hate stones too and I wish there was a definitive way to help reduce them. But I'll stick with the low calcium diet for now, as it seems to be the thing most people advice and have most luck with.
 
I've messaged @Wiebke the other day about this. It bothered me that she was advising to feed the piggies a high calcium diet and disputing the low calcium diet. If you've read the comments in Saskia's post, loads are also against about high calcium diet.

I didn't really read the comments to be honest. I just saw the video and thought "Damn, I need to post this to TGPF to see what other people think of it" XD I'll go and check out the comment section now.
 
I've messaged @Wiebke the other day about this. It bothered me that she was advising to feed the piggies a high calcium diet and disputing the low calcium diet. If you've read the comments in Saskia's post, loads are also against about high calcium diet.
where does saskia research come from, and where does the forums research come from? I know which I prefer, the low calcium way. But just wondered
 
I have actually spoken to Simon in person about stones, and he said he wouldn't be surprised if it was the pellets causing it. That's all he said to me
 
I have actually spoken to Simon in person about stones, and he said he wouldn't be surprised if it was the pellets causing it. That's all he said to me

Saskia said something similar regarding the amount of grains in most pellet food that guinea pig shouldn't really be having. I definitely think grain free is the way to go, in either case.
 
Saskia said something similar regarding the amount of grains in most pellet food that guinea pig shouldn't really be having. I definitely think grain free is the way to go, in either case.
Yea grain free, I used to feed alfalfa based pellets, another name for alfalfa is lucerne. Glad I realised its bad.

With guinea pigs there's a big calcium debate, and with rats I have soon realised there's a big protein debate
 
I didn't really read the comments to be honest. I just saw the video and thought "Damn, I need to post this to TGPF to see what other people think of it" XD I'll go and check out the comment section now.
I was talking about the 1st video she posted the other day. It blew up in Facebook. 😂 This one you posted is more of her clarification on her side. 😁
 
The diet Saskia is recommending (the so called ph : ca or phosphorus : calcium ratio diet) has been making the rounds for about a decade now. The problem is that you have to get that ratio exactly right because you are otherwise feeding a high calcium diet with the obvious consquences.

My issues with it are:
- Any ph : ca vegetable diet covers only about 10-20 % of the daily food intake but seems to totally ignore all the other factors that are most definitely in play; if more in some countries than others. Any US-based charts are more likely to fail in the UK in our forum experience.

- A lot of calcium can actually come in hard water; more than with veg. But water hardness differs massively around the world, as does individual water intake in guinea pigs. This is crucial, especially in a mostly hard water country like the UK (which is one of the worst in this respect). The US for instance is largely a soft water country. Even throughout the UK we have areas that struggle more with bladder stones than others.
Bottled water brands differ in calcium content and they come with long term plastic consumption/waste concerns; you will need to find a low calcium brand, which is not easy because most brands are high calcium.
While filtered water is generally making a noticeable difference when it comes to the development of stones, it is not as effective in filtering out all calcium. For guinea pigs you struggle with repeated stone formation (i.e. factors in the complex calcium absorption process that you cannot control with diet alone), bottled low calcium water is the better option; for most others, filtered water will usually do the trick.

- Hay is the largest food group and there are varieties of hay that differ in calcium content, so a guinea pig on meadow hay will eat some more calcium than timothy hay (it is not huge amounts more, but it can play into the overall balance when it is close to the tipping point). The same goes for any dry forage and speciality treat hays; they are often higher in calcium due to the evaporated water. Hay intake between piggies and from day to day can also vary quite noticeably.

- Pellets also can have very differing calcium content and there needs to be a chart for working out a standard in terms of calcium content vs. amount to feed. The phosphorus content in the pellets (i.e. the ph : ca ratio) is another big question.
Next to water, pellets are the next largest contributor of calcium in the diet. Weight for weight, the calcium content in even no added calcium pellets is noticeably higher than that in the veg highest in calcium, kale.


A good number of the long standing forum members have tried the ca : ph diet when it came on the scene big time first. With one notable exception, we have all made negative experiences. This is why we have withdrawn the ph : ca thread and no longer recommend it.
NOT because the ph : ca diet is essentially wrong - when you get it right, it actually works - but because it is so very easy to get it just wrong and the consquences can be costly.
When we have one person saying that it works for them and ten others on here that it hasn't worked out, then are some obvious issues that have not been factored in and may never be satisfactorily resolved. As long as there is no reliable chart to work out the overall calcium intake : phosphorus ratio irrespective of where you are in the world, we won't back it as a forum because the safety of any piggy on here is paramount for us. I may also add that in many countries, even European ones, getting hold of good pellets, low calcium water (most bottled water is high in calcium) or timothy hay can be rather difficult.

PS: On a strictly personal basis, two extra bladder stone ops in short succession just a few weeks into the ph : ca ratio diet where a bit in the way of a rather expensive failed diet experiment as far as I am concerned... :(

PS2: That is also why I am clearly saying at the start of our diet thread that what we recommend (i.e. a low to moderate calcium diet) may not necessarily be the best, but we can at least say that it works on the whole and that the occurrance of bladder stones in our regular UK members has come down massively on it. In the eight years since my failed diet experiment, I have only ever had one more bladder stone (in the wake of the Covid Lockdowns and balanced veg access problems) in the more than 50 piggies that have lived here since. (updated May 2022)

In any case, our moderate calcium sample diet is what has stood the test of time here in the UK when it comes to long term experiences with bladder and kidney stones; calcium and mineral content vary across the country so you have to work out for yourself how much higher or lower in calcium you may want to go until you have found your personal ideal balance. You can never eliminate the stones that come from a genetic disposition/something going wrong with calcium absorption process.
(PS: The slice of greens we recommend in our sample diet is a less calcium high relative of kale but you are welcome to replace it with kale if you live in a soft water area.)
For any piggies with known bladder problems a low (but NOT NO) calcium diet is always the safer option in any case as factoring in a likely genetic disposition or a problem with the calcium absorption is not easy...

PS3: Generally a grain-free and low sugar diet (no carrots, tomato or fruit!) should be observed for piggies with long term health issues (diabetes, digestive, urinary tract etc.) - but that then also goes for recommending feeding porridge oats (grain!) and carrots (high sugar) to help keep up the weight in frailer piggies, so you can see the problems you quickly get into...
For healthy piggies a low grain and low sugar diet is acceptable, i.e. if you can only get grain based pellets (alfalfa by the way is a legume and not a member of the grass family), then to may want to feed a bit less. Grain-free pellets have only been around for the last few years. Ten years ago the calcium content in pretty much all commercially available pellet brands was a lot higher than it is today and they were mostly alfalfa based.
These measures take care of the oxalates that play a role in the formation of stones and contribute to a reduction in the formation of stones that can be controlled by diet.

Basically, the ph : ca ratio diet would be great if you could get it to work safely for everybody everywhere, but there is still a massive practical BUT in the actual implementation...
 
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I am noticing now. That grain free pellets are becoming available for alot of different pets, I've see rat, guinea pig, rabbit, mouse, gerbil
 
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