Thirsty, hungry and losing weight - diabetic?

[JenTM]

Hi there!

We have 3 boy piggies (Jam, Chutney and Cracker) and Cracker has always been the slimmest. However, over the past 9 months-year he has been steadily losing weight, despite eating plenty. He is drinking much more than normal, and has been treated for two UTIs (with two different antibiotics), after developing smelly and blood stained urine. He has had a bladder scan, showing no bladder stones or sludge and a normal sized bladder. He has also had his urine tested and at that time, there was bacteria present, but it didn't appear sludgy. He had a couple of weeks on supplementary liquid food, but did not gain weight on it, though he enjoyed it.

Given his consistent, slow weight loss, and the other symptoms, I wonder if he is diabetic, but is there anything else that we should consider? He also has a cataract in one eye. Poor piggie, he's clearly the runt of the litter! Chutney is a giant fat pig and quite a bully, but they live in the house and Cracker gets plenty of food despite Chutney's resource guarding habits. We considered neutering Chutney to try to ease tensions, but I've read that doesn't affect guinea behaviour.

I'm pleased to read that diabetes in kidneys is treatable by diet and medication, so keen to take him back to the vet for further investigation. He's only 2.5 and I don't want to lose him so young.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I would definitely get him to the vet for further investigation. Consistently losing weight is concerning.

In terms of neutering, no it won’t make any difference. Neutering only prevents pregnancy. Keeping three boars together is notoriously difficult and bullying can occur. If all medical reasons for his weight loss despite eating well are ruled out then a bond problem would be something to consider given the issues boar trios face

 

[JenTM]

I would definitely get him to the vet for further investigation. Consistently losing weight is concerning.

In terms of neutering, no it won’t make any difference. Neutering only prevents pregnancy. Keeping three boars together is notoriously difficult and bullying can occur. If all medical reasons for his weight loss despite eating well are ruled out then a bond problem would be something to consider given the issues boar trios face

We've been in regular contact with the vets about it over this time. We were hoping the last lot of antibiotics might help. The vet even suggested getting a water filter in case minerals from the hard water are causing the bladder issues.

They get on better than previous groups of boars I have had - they never physically brawl... just lots of posturing and chattering. We sometimes bring Chutney out to sit on our laps just to give the others some peace!

 

[Piggies&buns]

We do recommend all drinking water is filtered. Calcium in water and pellets is the main contributor to bladder problems.

Obviously you know them best but a dysfunctional bond doesn't always have to end in a fight for it to be declared dysfunctional. Bullying can cause weight loss due to stress and not actually being able to eat as much as is necessary to maintain health. If a vet is not yet able to determine a medical cause and there is the possibility that it is a stressful situation, then I would be concerned about that. Lots of posturing and chattering, having to remove one to give the others peace, undiagnosed weight loss - that would concern me that things aren't as well as it seems.

 

[Free Ranger]

3 boars together is generally thought of as a 'not working' combination and part of Cracker's woes might be linked to this. My George has only ever had one bladder infection and it marked the start of his impaction difficulties, but both coincided with stress brought on by the illness and then loss of his cage mate who he depended on a great deal. Is there an option to keep him separate with thru-the-bars interaction with the other two?
This is Flora, who lives with George now, and has Zara and Louise as bar-neighbours (you can just see a bit of ginger-and-white Louise over the fence). Flora came in January and she'd been living with another female and a neutered male. She was small and petite... less than a kilo in weight. She was two years old so fully mature. Her owner had wondered if she was being bullied because she was so small but she'd never seen any obvious signs. Her two companions sadly passed within a few weeks of each other so we got Flora and within a couple of months she'd reached 1.22 kilo! Living with stress day in and day out can be very wearing for a piggy. Now she enjoys relaxing a great deal

 

[JenTM]

We do recommend all drinking water is filtered. Calcium in water and pellets is the main contributor to bladder problems.

Obviously you know them best but a dysfunctional bond doesn't always have to end in a fight for it to be declared dysfunctional. Bullying can cause weight loss due to stress and not actually being able to eat as much as is necessary to maintain health. If a vet is not yet able to determine a medical cause and there is the possibility that it is a stressful situation, then I would be concerned about that. Lots of posturing and chattering, having to remove one to give the others peace, undiagnosed weight loss - that would concern me that things aren't as well as it seems.

I started researching filter jugs, but they all seem to have cartridges... I need to find out if there is a less wasteful way of filtering water.

 

[Piggies&buns]

When you were syringe feeding, how much was he getting in a 24 hour period? How long was he on supplementary feeding?
When syringe feeding during an illness the aim is to stabilise weight loss, not to regain lost weight. Regaining lost weight takes considerably longer.

 

[JenTM]

3 boars together is generally thought of as a 'not working' combination and part of Cracker's woes might be linked to this. My George has only ever had one bladder infection and it marked the start of his impaction difficulties, but both coincided with stress brought on by the illness and then loss of his cage mate who he depended on a great deal. Is there an option to keep him separate with thru-the-bars interaction with the other two?
View attachment 179436This is Flora, who lives with George now, and has Zara and Louise as bar-neighbours (you can just see a bit of ginger-and-white Louise over the fence). Flora came in January and she'd been living with another female and a neutered male. She was small and petite... less than a kilo in weight. She was two years old so fully mature. Her owner had wondered if she was being bullied because she was so small but she'd never seen any obvious signs. Her two companions sadly passed within a few weeks of each other so we got Flora and within a couple of months she'd reached 1.22 kilo! Living with stress day in and day out can be very wearing for a piggy. Now she enjoys relaxing a great deal

If I had another cage around, I'd have tried separating Chutney by now, but I don't have one to hand, so we've been observing closely, and the interactions are not too bad, in my opinion. The other problem is, Cracker is (and always has been) very nervous is alone, so I can't take him out to solve the problem, because then he'd be lonely and stressed. The excessive thirst and the fact that I see him eating constantly is what makes me think it isn't all stress related.

 

[JenTM]

When you were syringe feeding, how much was he getting in a 24 hour period? How long was he on supplementary feeding?
When syringe feeding during an illness the aim is to stabilise weight loss, not to regain lost weight. Regaining lost weight takes considerably longer.

We tried syringe feeding for two weeks, starting a few of weeks after his first UTI had cleared up, as he wasn't regaining lost weight. I think we fed him 2-3 times a day, but he continued to lose weight slowly during that time.

 

[Piggies&buns]

How are his drinking habits? How have they changed over the year from 'normal' to 'excessive'
What has his weight been doing/how much has he lost?
How often do you weigh him?

We tried syringe feeding for two weeks, starting a few of weeks after his first UTI had cleared up, as he wasn't regaining lost weight. I think we fed him 2-3 times a day, but he continued to lose weight slowly during that time.

Did you try feeding him more often or increasing the amount per feeding to see if that stabilised the weight loss?
So, we would advise when syringe feeding to feed as much as is necessary to stop the weight loss - that could be feeding every 2 hours during the day and perhaps even once during the night in severe illness and weight loss - this would likely amount to in excess of 60ml of syringe feed per day.

So, in order for us to help you further, what do you consider as not too bad? What is actually happening? Of course a medical issue does need to be the priority but if there is even the slightest issue going on bond wise then that may exacerbate issues.

Which two of them get on best?
When you remove Chutney for laptime, how does he react when you put him back in? What do the others do with any reaction?

I know its a lot of questions, but we need to try to build up a picture of what is going on!

Complete Syringe Feeding Guide
Weight - Monitoring and Management

Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

 

[JenTM]

How are his drinking habits? How have they changed over the year from 'normal' to 'excessive'
What has his weight been doing/how much has he lost?
How often do you weigh him?



Did you try feeding him more often or increasing the amount per feeding to see if that stabilised the weight loss?
So, we would advise when syringe feeding to feed as much as is necessary to stop the weight loss - that could be feeding every 2 hours during the day and perhaps even once during the night in severe illness and weight loss - this would likely amount to in excess of 60ml of syringe feed per day.

So, in order for us to help you further, what do you consider as not too bad? What is actually happening? Of course a medical issue does need to be the priority but if there is even the slightest issue going on bond wise then that may exacerbate issues.

Which two of them get on best?
When you remove Chutney for laptime, how does he react when you put him back in? What do the others do with any reaction?

I know its a lot of questions, but we need to try to build up a picture of what is going on!

Complete Syringe Feeding Guide
Weight - Monitoring and Management

Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

Wow! Plenty of questions! I'll do my best to answer them all.

I consider his drinking excessive as it suddenly markedly increased, while they were living in the lounge, and during lockdown, so we could see him going to the bowl more often and staying there longer. The bowl cannot be left half full overnight otherwise it will run out during the night. Obviously we clean and refill it twice a day anyway, but it has to be kept at a high level or it gets licked nearly clean.

We've only weighed him a couple of times, and he'd gone from around 1kg to 960g. The first weight was from when he had the UTI and had already dropped a little weight. From looking at him and handling him I think he's dropped below 900g now. I'm avoiding obsessive weighing because it'll stress me out, and him.

The feeding supplementation we did was as I described. There is no way we could have managed, or could now manage 2 hourly feeds. It's a two-person job and we both work full time, so we did 2 times on working days and 3 at weekends if we could. He has not been severely ill at any point, and his behaviour is normal and chirpy. In fact, when he went to the vets for his bladder scan they commented on how gorgeous and glossy his coat is and how, other than being slim, he looks incredibly well nourished!

As for their behaviour, they're calm 99% of the time, happily moving around their spaces around each other without arguments. They quite happily snuggle three-in-a-row for a nap in the grass or under the hammock. If there is a squabble, it tends to be because Jam is trying to assert his dominance over Chutney (we keep telling him it's pointless. Chutney is nearly 2kg and Jam hasn't got a hope!) Chutney likes to be the first to get food, so we all give him the smallest piece, then hand bigger pieces to Jam and Cracker and usually, we get away with it. They live on hay and have a long run on long grass every day it isn't wet, so Cracker eats well. We're limited pellets now and cutting out sweet fruit and veg completely, to see if that helps.

I'd say Jam and Cracker get on best, so I'm asking my sister if she has a cage spare that we can borrow to trial separating. I can't put Cracker alone because he's too nervous, he'd be super stressed. Chutney usually does a quick patrol after laptime to make sure that everyone still knows he's in charge, then settles down to sleep. It doesn't provoke posturing or chattering, generally. We only ever did it a few times and haven't felt the need to do it for weeks, because they've all been very chilled lately. I think they've become middle aged - they do lots of lying about and sleeping!

The symptoms Cracker has been showing; bladder issues, excessive thirst and gradual weight loss despite excellent appetite and plenty of food going in, make me think diabetes is the most likely culprit. That, or some nasty cancer on the inside. I've asked for another chat with the vet today to see if we can get a glucose test done. I don't want to assume it is a stress problem, separate them and then watch him continue to lose weight.

Thanks for all your comments, really lovely to have such support.

 

[JenTM]

Just snapped photos of them all during their post-breakfast nap... Cracker on the left of the photo under the upstairs, Jam on the right, Chutney under the hammock like a furry puddle.

He's now 877g, which is close to my estimate of 860g based on holding him. Look how handsome he is though.

I have him sat on my lap with some broccoli now, but he's too terrified to eat. He's never been a fan of eating in a lap!

 

[VickiA]

I would ask your vets to check for a thyroid issue as excessive drinking, weight loss despite very good appetite & supplemental support indicates that there’s possibly an underlying problem

 

[JenTM]

I would ask your vets to check for a thyroid issue as excessive drinking, weight loss despite very good appetite & supplemental support indicates that there’s possibly an underlying problem

That is not a bad shout! I've just chatted to the vet and he was tested for glucose in his urine, and it was negative, so that rules out diabetes. His x-ray and scan didn't suggest kidney or bladder stones. She says it could be Cushings disease (where the body creates too much adrenaline) and tumour or kidney failure, neither of which you can do much about to a wee guinea. The next step to test for either of those, or a low-level continuing UTI, would be a urine test. I'll do a bit of research into thyroid issues though, because that's an interesting idea. He doesn't have all the symptoms of hyperthyroid disease, but maybe guinea pigs don't get them all?

I think our plan will likely be trial separation, bit of supplementary feeding and see how he goes. I don't want to put him through numerous tests and procedures when it could be something sinister that couldn't be treated anyway. I'll get a urine sample from him if separating and feeding don't stop the weight loss.

 

[VickiA]

Has the vet fully examined round the head/neck area to see if a thyroid tumour might be growing?

 

[JenTM]

Has the vet fully examined round the head/neck area to see if a thyroid tumour might be growing?

I actually don't know because I've had to stand outside while he's been examined, due to covid.

 

[JenTM]

So based on everyone's advice (thanks!) I've acquired a second hand cage from nearby and Chutney is now living alongside his brothers. This is already driving him nuts... he is camped out of the hammock spying on them and trying to chew through the bars! Cracker has just downed about 60ml of critical care in one sitting and is scoffing treats on my lap as we speak.

Lets see if we can chill him out and beef him up!