The Girls Had A Scuffle, What Now?

Louise's Zoo

Louise's Zoo

Adult Guinea Pig
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
2,001
Reaction score
3,421
Points
1,175
Location
Surrey
Just a recap, Eva and her babies (the 2 girls) were reintroduced to Eileen and Edna a few days ago during floor time. All went really well. Since then everyday they have had floor time together.

This evening 20 mins into floor time I noticed some different behaviour. Eva was following Edna (top sow) around and nipping at her. The babies were following close behind Eva, like a train and suddenly Edna turned round and charged at them all. Edna and Eva stood face to face doing the chin lifting thing and then Edna started chattering her teeth the loudest I have ever heard. Eva then did some clucking. I ran to get my oven gloves!

Came back just in time to see them lunge at each other, not nipping, looked like a fight was kicking off so I stepped in and separated Eva and babies away.

I've read the guides but in real life it's so difficult to judge. I did panic a bit because the babies were there and right next to Eva.

Do I try them back together again at some point? Edna has always been very dominant so I'm not sure why Eva is now trying to boss her about.

Help!
 
As a newbie I'm not really qualified to post on this but I remember reading somewhere on here that after giving birth a sow will go up in status until after weaning and there are sometimes issues re dominance after as the sow can be reluctant to give up her new status. I expect someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly!
 
spock said:
As a newbie I'm not really qualified to post on this but I remember reading somewhere on here that after giving birth a sow will go up in status until after weaning and there are sometimes issues re dominance after as the sow can be reluctant to give up her new status. I expect someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly!
Click to expand...

I was just thinking that abiut a sow going up a rank after having babies ... Will be interested to hear expert opinions.
 
Ah that could explain it if so. I'm so nervous to try them again. This will really mess up my plans if they cant all go back together again :(
 
I've calmed down a bit and I'm going to try them again today. Will clear out the run and put the 3 girls in and see what's what. I really need them all to get on so they can have the huge 8x2 cage later. if not I'll have to split it but 4x2 each is not what I wanted.

Fingers crossed!
 
Nope, this is really not working. They fought again. It's definitely proper fighting. Neither girl backs down. Teeth are chattering, hackles up, head's up and then BAM, they attack each other, like a cartoon they end up in a ball of fur and limbs. I'm not trying it again for a while, it's too scary. I'm shaking. :(

Also, as soon as Eva is with Eileen and Edna, Edna starts on Eileen too but Eileen submits and runs away.

Maybe once the pups are weaned Eva will behave? @Wiebke
 
@Wiebke any suggestions on this situation? Sorry to hear it is not working I would certainly not try again for a long while :(
 
Do you think it might also be to do with mum being extra protective of her young?
 
Eileen's Mum said:
Nope, this is really not working. They fought again. It's definitely proper fighting. Neither girl backs down. Teeth are chattering, hackles up, head's up and then BAM, they attack each other, like a cartoon they end up in a ball of fur and limbs. I'm not trying it again for a while, it's too scary. I'm shaking. :(

Also, as soon as Eva is with Eileen and Edna, Edna starts on Eileen too but Eileen submits and runs away.

Maybe once the pups are weaned Eva will behave? @Wiebke
Click to expand...

Personally, I would not try again and keep them in separate pairs. Once sows have decided that they do not like the other and are into serious fighting, you've had it in my experience - even if you can get them to live with each other (which is more than questionable), the old grudges will resurface again and again. It is just no worth it! Neither Eva nor Edna is prepared to step down. :(

Please be aware that sows during nursing time and shortly after are at their most difficult to bond because the normal hierarchy is suspended; nursing sows and their babies enjoy protected status. Nursing mums can also be much more aggressive and are much less likely to step down, as having babies means a climbing up the hierarchy with a new generation behind them.
There is a chapter on reuniting new mums and the risks of it in this guide here:
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/after-birth-and-baby-care.109389/
 
Wiebke said:
Personally, I would not try again and keep them in separate pairs. Once sows have decided that they do not like the other and are into serious fighting, you've had it in my experience - even if you can get them to live with each other (which is more than questionable), the old grudges will resurface again and again. It is just no worth it! Neither Eva nor Edna is prepared to step down. :(

Please be aware that sows during nursing time and shortly after are at their most difficult to bond because the normal hierarchy is suspended; nursing sows and their babies enjoy protected status. Nursing mums can also be much more aggressive and are much less likely to step down, as having babies means a climbing up the hierarchy with a new generation behind them.
There is a chapter on reuniting new mums and the risks of it in this guide here:
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/after-birth-and-baby-care.109389/
Click to expand...

Oh poop! What a shame. On the plus side, Edna and Eileen have got a great bond. I just wanted them all to have a big cage to share :(

So, the girls will remain split and will be in half each of the 8x2 C&C. Not ideal sizing but better size than the 2 cages I have. Emmett will have to go into one of the shop bought cages until he is neutered. Now with Eva having 2 babies with her, do you think I could try Emmett with Eileen and Edna after his op? That way there would be 3 in each cage or are his chances of bonding better if he goes back with his mum and sisters?

Again, poop! I'm so sad about this :(
 
Eileen's Mum said:
Oh poop! What a shame. On the plus side, Edna and Eileen have got a great bond. I just wanted them all to have a big cage to share :(

So, the girls will remain split and will be in half each of the 8x2 C&C. Not ideal sizing but better size than the 2 cages I have. Emmett will have to go into one of the shop bought cages until he is neutered. Now with Eva having 2 babies with her, do you think I could try Emmett with Eileen and Edna after his op? That way there would be 3 in each cage or are his chances of bonding better if he goes back with his mum and sisters?

Again, poop! I'm so sad about this :(
Click to expand...

I am very sorry; I know only too well how it is when your careful plans don't work out. I've got a wardrobe full of t-shirts in that respect - guinea pigs have very much their own minds! :(

Two 2x4 C&C cages are the equivalent of a 2x5 ft traditional cage and comply with the minimum space for a trio. You can always create some extra space with a little mezzanine or hay loft.
If you'd rather have Emmett join his birth family, I'd recommend to split the cage in a 2x5 and a 2x3 grid cage to accommodate a quartet and a pair and still be compliant with minimum welfare requirements. At least you have got two options and the flexible cage space...

Please ensure that Emmett can stay in contact with the sows (through bars of course) during shared run time because that makes introductions and bonding a lot easier when he is still accepted as family. You can let him have parallel run time with both groups of sows, as long as he is single and he cannot physically get at them. I find pannelled runs very useful for creating divided safe runs.
IMG_3557.webp
 
Wiebke said:
I am very sorry; I know only too well how it is when your careful plans don't work out. I've got a wardrobe full of t-shirts in that respect - guinea pigs have very much their own minds! :(

Two 2x4 C&C cages are the equivalent of a 2x5 ft traditional cage and comply with the minimum space for a trio. You can always create some extra space with a little mezzanine or hay loft.
If you'd rather have Emmett join his birth family, I'd recommend to split the cage in a 2x5 and a 2x3 grid cage to accommodate a quartet and a pair and still be compliant with minimum welfare requirements. At least you have got two options and the flexible cage space...

Please ensure that Emmett can stay in contact with the sows (through bars of course) during shared run time because that makes introductions and bonding a lot easier when he is still accepted as family. You can let him have parallel run time with both groups of sows, as long as he is single and he cannot physically get at them. I find pannelled runs very useful for creating divided safe runs.
View attachment 67590
Click to expand...

I will certainly add some more space at some point. I think I can add an L-shape. So it would be a 9x2 with a 4x2 coming off it.. that would be much better :)

So I was thinking, seeing as Eileen and Edna are in a commercial cage already, I will move them into the bigger 140cm cage and split the C&C cage as planned 2x5 for Eva and the baby girls and then 2x3 for Emmett so he can still be next to them and interact, as you mentioned but instead of just run time, it will be all the time. he will be apart from them but only by the girds so it should make things easier for him.

Then, once he's had his op, as you have suggested I will leave the C&C split how it is, hopefully move Emmett in with mum and sisters and then move Edna and Eileen into the 2x3. If any of the girls have a problem with this I can cover the diving grid (with high correx or similar) so they can't see each other. That's the new plan for now.

Thankfully I have spare cages and space now so at least it's not as bad as it could have been had I still only got one 140cm cage!
 
Eileen's Mum said:
I will certainly add some more space at some point. I think I can add an L-shape. So it would be a 9x2 with a 4x2 coming off it.. that would be much better :)

So I was thinking, seeing as Eileen and Edna are in a commercial cage already, I will move them into the bigger 140cm cage and split the C&C cage as planned 2x5 for Eva and the baby girls and then 2x3 for Emmett so he can still be next to them and interact, as you mentioned but instead of just run time, it will be all the time. he will be apart from them but only by the girds so it should make things easier for him.

Then, once he's had his op, as you have suggested I will leave the C&C split how it is, hopefully move Emmett in with mum and sisters and then move Edna and Eileen into the 2x3. If any of the girls have a problem with this I can cover the diving grid (with high correx or similar) so they can't see each other. That's the new plan for now.

Thankfully I have spare cages and space now so at least it's not as bad as it could have been had I still only got one 140cm cage!
Click to expand...

That is a good idea and much better for Emmett, as he has no daddy pig to take him on. Just brace yourself for two days of grid rattling and heart-break when you separate, but at least he can still interact with his family and the bond won't be broken.

As Edna and Eileen are working so well with each other, they will likely be happy in a larger cage. In the long run, they could profit from a 2x4 grid cage if you can expand. It is going to be easier to add an extra level to the larger cage and still have reasonable access than to the smaller cage.
 
Wiebke said:
That is a good idea and much better for Emmett, as he has no daddy pig to take him on. Just brace yourself for two days of grid rattling and heart-break when you separate, but at least he can still interact with his family and the bond won't be broken.

As Edna and Eileen are working so well with each other, they will likely be happy in a larger cage. In the long run, they could profit from a 2x4 grid cage if you can expand. It is going to be easier to add an extra level to the larger cage and still have reasonable access than to the smaller cage.
Click to expand...

I'm dreading separating him. He cries a lot when they are apart for a few mins, like when I weigh them. They all squeak for each other when they know one is missing :(

He will be 3 weeks old this Saturday and today he is 190g so it looks like he will be separated this weekend :(

Grids and correx are arriving tomorrow so everything will be ready.
 
Eileen's Mum said:
I'm dreading separating him. He cries a lot when they are apart for a few mins, like when I weigh them. They all squeak for each other when they know one is missing :(

He will be 3 weeks old this Saturday and today he is 190g so it looks like he will be separated this weekend :(

Grids and correx are arriving tomorrow so everything will be ready.
Click to expand...


Just make sure that he cannot get his head wedged in the grids at first as he is a rather small boy. Get a little plastic mesh from B&Q or a garden centre to keep him from trying to poke his way through.
 
Wiebke said:
Just make sure that he cannot get his head wedged in the grids at first as he is a rather small boy. Get a little plastic mesh from B&Q or a garden centre to keep him from trying to poke his way through.
Click to expand...

Good idea. Added to the shopping list :)
 
I have nothing helpful to add @Eileen's Mum but wanted to say I think you are handling everything brilliantly.
I feel your pain with the separation - my 4 fell out after living together for a year, and I always dreamt of them living together as a happy herd in a huge cage.
But I do know it was the right thing to keep them in pairs, and once I accepted that they would be ok in a smaller than envisioned cage I was able to see that it really was the best decision for everyone in the long term.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top