Syringing Pellets....

[Storm1974]

Bracken still has his breathing issue (Had absolutely no other signs of illness except for slightly nodding head and breathing faster/harder than normal) for a while now, even though the vet listened to his heart and chest the other week, and said she couldn't hear anything untoward and didn't even want to prescribe antibiotics, because she said there seemed to be no signs of a URI! This morning though, when we got up, we noticed he was fluffed up and his breathing seems a lot more pronounced, he's also not moving around the cage to eat anything, he's just sitting in his hay tray eating hay and as and when he feels like it! So we decided to mash up some of his pellets in water, along with some Vitamin C powder and some Colloidal Silver (Natural antibiotic), but when we tried syringing it, all that gets syringed up is water, none of the actual pellet fibre! Is this ok, as long as he's still eating hay?

He's also eaten some pepper and some greens earlier on, but we just thought we would give him some extras, especially as he's not interested in his pellets and maybe not eating 'as much' hay as he usually would due to being a bit more lethargic.

Just to add, I know many on here are against this, but we are also nebulising the colloidal silver, which we've now done twice since this morning!
If you look on here, you will see all about it and why it can be so effective for respiratory infections...
âNebulizing With Colloidal Silver

Very worried about him and can't stop crying, he's only 7 months old and we can't bear the thought of losing him so soon, especially as his brother Bramble will be all alone then! Bracken is the beautiful little angel on the right side of my avatar, the sandy coloured Agouti.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Sorry to hear he is unwell.

Syringing pellet mush can be harder than syringing a proper recovery feed. It is important that the cut the tapered end off the syringe so it is just the open width of the syringe (if that makes sense). A syringe still with the taper will not draw in the pellet mush and will just pull the water out.

You also have to play with the mixture to get the consistency right. It is much more coarse than recovery feed so just takes more fiddling with to get it right.

You will need to switch to daily weight checks so you can monitor hay intake and syringe feed quantities to keep his weight stable.
A piggy struggling to breathe usually reduces their hay intake as the need to breathe comes first.

 

[Storm1974]

Sorry to hear he is unwell.

Syringing pellet mush can be harder than syringing a proper recovery feed. It is important that the cut the tapered end off the syringe so it is just the open width of the syringe (if that makes sense). A syringe still with the taper will not draw in the pellet mush and will just pull the water out.

You also have to play with the mixture to get the consistency right. It is much more coarse than recovery feed so just takes more fiddling with to get it right.

You will need to switch to daily weight checks so you can monitor hay intake and syringe feed quantities to keep his weight stable.
A piggy struggling to breathe usually reduces their hay intake as the need to breathe comes first.

Thank you Piggies&buns.

That is a good tip regarding the syringe!

Today is such a horrible day, I knew something wasn't right with his breathing, but as I said, the vet couldn't find anything wrong when we took him the other week, and he was acting fine in every other way except for that.....Until today.

 

[Piggies&buns]

As he is deteriorating, then it would be safest to return to the vet. It’s always possible there wasn’t enough evidence of something before but there might be now.

 

[piggieminder]

Is there another vet you can see close by for a second opinion?
I hope he gets well soon.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

HUGS

For practical how-to tips re. syringing pellets and prepping the syringe (with pictures) you may find the relevant chapter in our guide here helpful:
All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures (see chapters 3 and 4 but the whole guide contains all the necessary practical tips and information which you will hopefully find very helpful in mnaging support care).

I am very sorry; your boy is definitely ill. It could be something pushing on the heart?

 

[Storm1974]

As he is deteriorating, then it would be safest to return to the vet. It’s always possible there wasn’t enough evidence of something before but there might b

Is there another vet you can see close by for a second opinion?
I hope he gets well soon.

Yes there is, but I don't think we're registered with them.

Maybe it's worth a try, but it's the weekend now, so going to be harder to get appointment!

 

[Storm1974]

Bracken has just died!!

He just collapsed on his side and started gasping for air, so we took him out of the cage and he has just died on my husbands lap, we are absolutely devastated! He was only 7 months old!

 

[fluffysal]

Oh, I'm so very sorry. You did everything you could but sometimes the call of the bridge is too strong. Popcorn high and sleep well Bracken

 

[Wiebke]

BIG HUGS

I am so very sorry. It sounds very much like he may have had a congenital heart defect of some sort; it sadly happens. Nothing you have done wrong, could have changed and not at all that easy to diagnose by a vet.

Please try to take consolation that you have done your very best and that you have given Bracken the happy todays filled with love and care that guinea pigs measure a good life by; they do not have a concept for an averge life span. You haven't failed him in any way because the rest is out of your control. And you have made his life count and worth living, even as short as it was. That difference you have made is something that can't be taken from you and that you can cling onto during the storms and floods in your soul.

Be kind with yourself since you have both the shock and the loss to deal with at once. It is OK to not be OK for a little while while you feel overwhelmed or numb when faced with too much you can process at once. Grieving is the other side of love; it is never about the species but the depth of the bond.

I like to think of my own Rainbow Bridge piggies as my little furry guardian angels that look after my current piggies since they are still all here in my heart, my memory and in what they have taught me that now benefits other piggies, as well as the joy they have enriched my life with while they were with me and the way they have shaped me as a person - the bond works both ways. Bracken will always be with you because is a little part of your life and a little part of you as a person.

You may find the various guides via the link below helpful to make sense of what has just happened (natural death), the often unexpected emotions and tought processes you will go through in the course of your grieving process and some practical advice about where to find free of charge trained support if needed (we have also included tips and links for children of different ages) and what you can do for Bracken's friend right now and in the coming days and weeks.
Death, Dying, Terminal Illness; Human Grieving and Bereaved Companions: Information and Support for Owners and Their Children

 

[Storm1974]

Oh, I'm so very sorry. You did everything you could but sometimes the call of the bridge is too strong. Popcorn high and sleep well Bracken

Thank you.

 

[Storm1974]

BIG HUGS

I am so very sorry. It sounds very much like he may have had a congenital heart defect of some sort; it sadly happens. Nothing you have done wrong, could have changed and not at all that easy to diagnose by a vet.

Please try to take consolation that you have done your very best and that you have given Bracken the many happy todays filled with love and care that guinea pigs measure their lives by. You haven't failed him in any way because the rest is out of your control. And you have made his life count and worth living, even as short as it was. That difference you have made is something that can't be taken from you and that you can cling onto during the storms and floods in your soul.

Be kind with yourself since you have both the shock and the loss to deal with at once. It is OK to not be OK for a little while while you feel overwhelmed or numb when faced with too much you can process at once. Grieving is the other side of love; it is never about the species but the depth of the bond.

I like to think of my own Rainbow Bridge piggies as my little furry guardian angels that look after my current piggies since they are still all here in my heart, my memory and in what they have taught me that now benefits other piggies, as well as the joy they have enriched my life while they were with me and the way they have shaped me as a person - the bond works both ways. Bracken will always be with you because is a little part of your life and a little part of you as a person.

You may find the various guides via the link below helpful to make sense of what has just happened (natural death), the often unexpected emotions and tought processes you will go through in the course of your grieving process and some practical advice about where to find free of charge trained support if needed (we have included tips and links for children of different ages) and what you can do for Bracken's friend right now and in the coming days and weeks.
Death, Dying, Terminal Illness; Human Grieving and Bereaved Companions: Information and Support for Owners and Their Children

Thank you for the kind words of wisdom Wiebke, they really do mean a lot.

We are starting to believe that our darling, beautiful, spirited Bracken, may indeed have had some kind of congential heart defect, because his poor heart was thumping so hard most days recently, I could very easily feel it thudding through my hand. He was clicking as he was breathing today as well, just before he died, when we were syringe feeding him. So we assumed it was a respiratory illness, though it was very strange that the vet couldn't hear any crackling/mucus and he had absolutely no other signs of respiratory problems when he was checked over. We do wonder if it was due to bad breeding because to be honest, when the young woman breeder came to bring our two beautiful boys to us (Because we didn't have a car at the time we got them) back in August last year, we got kind of a vibe off of her that she wasn't really that interested in whether we were going to be good owners or not, and when we invited her into our place to see where/how the boys would be living, she didn't even really want to come in to see if our home was going to be suitable for them. Because if that was me, I would have definitely wanted to have seen where my piggies were going, what kind of home they were going to have!

Anyway, none of that is relevant really now, and we do realise that wherever we get our piggies from in the future, there is always a chance that one could be harbouring something like this that we have no idea about, unfortunately.

So, now onto grieving our very special little boy and worrying about his brother who is now all alone. Though to be honest, Bramble doesn't 'seem' to be that concerned, and he certainly wasn't worried about Bracken when he was very ill in the cage. Bramble was just interested in food, nicking his brothers bits we left in the cage for him (But Bracken hadn't really been interested in eating since last Friday, sadly) and chasing his treat ball around the cage. We did put Brackens body in the cage for Bramble to see, earlier, and he has seemed a little quiet since then, so maybe he is grieving in his own way. As much as we don't want him to be too depressed and lonely until we can find a friend for him, it would be nice to think he does actually miss his brother, who used to follow him around the cage and annoy him a lot with all his rumble strutting he used to do! Bracken was such a rumbly boss with his brother, but always used to be fair with him and never bullied him, or went too far.

We're going to miss that boy so, so much! I know we can never replace him, but I don't think we'll ever find another like him, and especially the way he was with his brother.

 

[piggieminder]

I'm so sorry to hear your very sad news. You did absolutely everything you could for him, sadly sometimes we still lose them. Sending you hugs.
Sleep tight Bracken.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for the kind words of wisdom Wiebke, they really do mean a lot.

We are starting to believe that our darling, beautiful, spirited Bracken, may indeed have had some kind of congential heart defect, because his poor heart was thumping so hard most days recently, I could very easily feel it thudding through my hand. He was clicking as he was breathing today as well, just before he died, when we were syringe feeding him. So we assumed it was a respiratory illness, though it was very strange that the vet couldn't hear any crackling/mucus and he had absolutely no other signs of respiratory problems when he was checked over. We do wonder if it was due to bad breeding because to be honest, when the young woman breeder came to bring our two beautiful boys to us (Because we didn't have a car at the time we got them) back in August last year, we got kind of a vibe off of her that she wasn't really that interested in whether we were going to be good owners or not, and when we invited her into our place to see where/how the boys would be living, she didn't even really want to come in to see if our home was going to be suitable for them. Because if that was me, I would have definitely wanted to have seen where my piggies were going, what kind of home they were going to have!

Anyway, none of that is relevant really now, and we do realise that wherever we get our piggies from in the future, there is always a chance that one could be harbouring something like this that we have no idea about, unfortunately.

So, now onto grieving our very special little boy and worrying about his brother who is now all alone. Though to be honest, Bramble doesn't 'seem' to be that concerned, and he certainly wasn't worried about Bracken when he was very ill in the cage. Bramble was just interested in food, nicking his brothers bits we left in the cage for him (But Bracken hadn't really been interested in eating since last Friday, sadly) and chasing his treat ball around the cage. We did put Brackens body in the cage for Bramble to see, earlier, and he has seemed a little quiet since then, so maybe he is grieving in his own way. As much as we don't want him to be too depressed and lonely until we can find a friend for him, it would be nice to think he does actually miss his brother, who used to follow him around the cage and annoy him a lot with all his rumble strutting he used to do! Bracken was such a rumbly boss with his brother, but always used to be fair with him and never bullied him, or went too far.

We're going to miss that boy so, so much! I know we can never replace him, but I don't think we'll ever find another like him, and especially the way he was with his brother.

Hi

Bracken didn't have pneumonia but with congestive heart failure fluid builds up either in the lungs, the chest or more rarely in the body cavity (which looks like persistent medium strong bloat). The clicking points towards a fluid build up in the lungs in Bracken's case - it indicates a build up of fluid or some obstruction in the lungs; but that can both be from pneumonia or heart failure. You can only ever interpret it in its context of other symptoms or lack thereof - that is what vets are being trained for and where online research often falls short because we lack the medical context training.

The nodding was the first 'smoking gun' symptom for me pointing towards the heart rather than a respiratory infection but it is initially a very subtle symptom that your vet may not find confirmed when looking at the heart. The heart is situated just next to the lungs so it can impact on the respiratory system and share some symptoms. I am sure that your vet has checked on the heart during the last examination.

I hope that this helps you to make more sense? Intense soul searching and feelings of guilt/failure are typical for the onset of the grieving process; even more so after a sudden and/or traumatic death. We all experience them in some shape or form. Please keep in mind that from hindsight the path is always clear but that when you walk it, you (nd your vet) are treading a maze blind-folded.

Please take the time to read the links in my previous post; you should find them very helpful and hopefully feel less overwhelmed. Especially if this is your first encounter with death.

You will never find another one exactly like Bracken; every being and every bond is unique. You are also changed that bit after your loss.
What you will meet in due time is a very different personality with their own charme who you will come to love in a very different way and for very different reasons. You may find that you will experience a new bond that rather creeps up on you gradually and slowly after a sudden loss and an intense battle for a life once you are ready for new love and without you really noticing at first.
As long as Bracken's mate is eating and drinking, he will hold for 1-4 weeks or even a bit longer if you were considering having him neutered, which will hopefully give you enough time to get over the worst of the pain and shock. Please don't rush out blindly and make any knee-jerk reactions. Take your time to think things through. But you won't have to worry about quarantining your remaining boy before he can meet a new friend; there should be no risk of transmitting an URI.

 

[weepweeps]

I’m so sorry you have lost beautiful Bracken. Popcorn high over the bridge.

 

[Storm1974]

Hi

Bracken didn't have pneumonia but with congestive heart failure fluid builds up either in the lungs, the chest or more rarely in the body cavity (which looks like persistent medium strong bloat). The clicking points towards a fluid build up in the lungs in Bracken's case - it indicates a build up of fluid or some obstruction in the lungs; but that can both be from pneumonia or heart failure. You can only ever interpret it in its context of other symptoms or lack thereof - that is what vets are being trained for and where online research often falls short because we lack the medical context training.

The nodding was the first 'smoking gun' symptom for me pointing towards the heart rather than a respiratory infection but it is initially a very subtle symptom that your vet may not find confirmed when looking at the heart. The heart is situated just next to the lungs so it can impact on the respiratory system and share some symptoms. I am sure that your vet has checked on the heart during the last examination.

I hope that this helps you to make more sense? Intense soul searching and feelings of guilt/failure are typical for the onset of the grieving process; even more so after a sudden and/or traumatic death. We all experience them in some shape or form. Please keep in mind that from hindsight the path is always clear but that when you walk it, you (nd your vet) are treading a maze blind-folded.

Please take the time to read the links in my previous post; you should find them very helpful and hopefully feel less overwhelmed. Especially if this is your first encounter with death.

You will never find another one exactly like Bracken; every being and every bond is unique. You are also changed that bit after your loss.
What you will meet in due time is a very different personality with their own charme who you will come to love in a very different way and for very different reasons. You may find that you will experience a new bond that rather creeps up on you gradually and slowly after a sudden loss and an intense battle for a life once you are ready for new love and without you really noticing at first.
As long as Bracken's mate is eating and drinking, he will hold for 1-4 weeks or even a bit longer if you were considering having him neutered, which will hopefully give you enough time to get over the worst of the pain and shock. Please don't rush out blindly and make any knee-jerk reactions. Take your time to think things through. But you won't have to worry about quarantining your remaining boy before he can meet a new friend; there should be no risk of transmitting an URI.

I think you are right about his heart, but I didn't think that a Guinea Pig (Or any animal for that matter) could develop CHF at such a young age, I thought it would develop over time?

The vet didn't actually look at Brackens heart, she just listened to it thoroughly, with the stethoscope and said it sounded fine.

Yes I will read those helpful posts, thank you.

Bramble does seem ok, but I hate seeing him on his own in the cage. Anyway, we'll see how he goes over the next few days and go from there. We won't be getting him neutered though, because of the risk of anesthetic and we do really want to get another 'rumbly' Boar if possible, especially as Bramble is a bit of a clownish child, and not in the least bit dominant!

 

[Wiebke]

I think you are right about his heart, but I didn't think that a Guinea Pig (Or any animal for that matter) could develop CHF at such a young age, I thought it would develop over time?

The vet didn't actually look at Brackens heart, she just listened to it thoroughly, with the stethoscope and said it sounded fine.

Yes I will read those helpful posts, thank you.

Bramble does seem ok, but I hate seeing him on his own in the cage. Anyway, we'll see how he goes over the next few days and go from there. We won't be getting him neutered though, because of the risk of anesthetic and we do really want to get another 'rumbly' Boar if possible, especially as Bramble is a bit of a clownish child, and not in the least bit dominant!

They can do it at any age - even as newborns. We have sadly seen the very occasional case of even younger piggies; the extreme ws just a few days old.

Living with a genetic heart defect is like living with an unknown bomb in the body whose fuse is burning. I have lost a couple of young nd seemingly healthy piggies to sudden acute heart failure myself at a young age; Telyn died within 12 hours of me finding her suddenly collapsed with blue lips in late morning after a normal breakfst and despite being seen by my local vet as an emergency within half an hour. She was just a few days past her second birthday; I later heard that most of her generation of rescue born babies from a large neglect breeder intake shared her fate; they all had a very distinctive look and must have shared the same (likely inbred) dad.
I hope that this helps you?

 

[piggieminder]

When you are ready I recommend Little Wheekers Guinea Pig Rescue in Bristol. I know it may be quite a way from you but it's worth enquiring. They go above and beyond to help.

 

[Storm1974]

They can do it at any age - even as newborns. We have sadly seen the very occasional case of even younger piggies; the extreme ws just a few days old.

Living with a genetic heart defect is like living with an unknown bomb in the body whose fuse is burning. I have lost a couple of young nd seemingly healthy piggies to sudden acute heart failure myself at a young age; Telyn died within 12 hours of me finding her suddenly collapsed with blue lips in late morning after a normal breakfst and despite being seen by my local vet as an emergency within half an hour. She was just a few days past her second birthday; I later heard that most of her generation of rescue born babies from a large neglect breeder intake shared her fate; they all had a very distinctive look and must have shared the same (likely inbred) dad.
I hope that this helps you?

That is so sad.

Brackens lips didn't turn blue though, does that always happen with CHF?

 

[Storm1974]

When you are ready I recommend Little Wheekers Guinea Pig Rescue in Bristol. I know it may be quite a way from you but it's worth enquiring. They go above and beyond to help.

Thank you.

We are also looking at Mandys Guinea Pig Rescue which is in Wimborne, Dorset. Will just have to work out which is nearer, I guess, because obviously we will have to take Bramble with us, to see how he gets on with a prospective new friend.

 

[Wiebke]

That is so sad.

Brackens lips didn't turn blue though, does that always happen with CHF?

No; blue lips are more connected with sudden acute heart failure; it is a different kind of heart failure than congestive heart failure - there is for instance not the build up of fluid. Symptoms can vary accordingly depending on what exactly happens.

However, you would be very unlucky to come across another younger piggy with heart failure; they are not quite as common. as most pet piggies are from commercial pet shop supply breeders these days. Both my young piggies with heart failure were rescue adoptees with a backyard/neglect breeding background.

 

[piggieminder]

LW don't have a base. They came to me when I had a boy to be bonded with a friend. They do residential bonding in Bristol sometimes where your boy would stay for a few days to a week. It would depend on how busy they are etc. I know they are full at the moment and not taking in any more piggies so are eager to get Guinea pigs rehomed. It's worth asking and getting your name down on the waiting list if you can. They have a website www.littlewheekers.uk .